I did some Interesting math... and Runescape = Communism

[Ts_Stormrage]

Trading between a friend can now only be done if your offer and his offer only vary up to 3k... Trading on the GE however, means that for the same item (market price), you can be 5% over or under that...

 

 

 

Suppose you're trading a bunch of stuff and you're looking to buy it cheaply... From a friend you could get a whole of 3k discount, even if it was something like a bandos hilt, or a dfs... from the GE you could theoretically get it 5% cheaper then market price...

 

 

 

This means any item over 60.000 gp in value on the market, you're better off buying it form the GE...

 

On P2P any interesting item to get with a bit of discount are either a lot of resources for a higher level, or items worth over 1m a piece... Either way, you're well beyond that 60k...

 

 

 

Take a whip, currently priced at 1,238,324 gp at the GE... removing 5% form that, you're at 1,176,407 gp that you can buy a whip for at MINIMUM gp... Thats a discount of 61,917 gp that you can now get on a whip...

 

 

 

Trade it to a friend instead of via the GE and you can only give or recieve 3k discount, based on that 1,238,324 gp...

 

 

 

On top of that, you can trade as many of these items as you like, with a 62k discount as often and as many as possible, while oyu gotta wait 15 minutes if you traded your 3k already, and want to trade some more...

 

 

 

 

 

This is ofcourse completely unfair, it forces you basicly to use the Grand Exchange for nearly everything, and it has destroyed one aspect of what an MMORPG should be... A Massive MULTI-PLAYER Online Role Playing Game...

 

 

 

Multiplayer jagex, meaning multiple people play it with eachother... You destroyed one of the largest aspects of social interaction in your game...

 

 

 

Add to all this data, the facts that were found by the guys in this thread here, and you can only draw one conclusion:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[url=http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=723518][img=http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s309/Stk-tyrone/Fontsize40.png][/url]

 

 

 

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Another piece of math I'd looked at was the calculations made of how much money was involved in real world trading...

 

Jagex stated that in 2006 they banned 200 Billion gp, and so far in 11 months in 2007 already 525 billion gp, and if continuing like this, it'd ammount to 8,000 billion gp in 2010...

 

Maybe this has something to do with the ease with which money can be made... Or maybe because jagex banned so much gp, and the goldfarmers still had to fill out a customers order, that they literally flooded the game with bots...

 

 

 

I would like to see someone make an educated guess if jagex just let this thing run free, and carried on with dealing with RWT and their bots the way they have always done... I could very well do without 4 updates a month... Two a month is good enough for $5, and with the current rates, I wouldnt be suprised if you upped it to $6 or even $7 a month, its all FAR MORE acceptable then these updates...

 

 

 

Jagex claims it costs them money, but how about killing the RWT's business by simply taking part in it? If anything, Jagex can offer more competitive prices for their gp BY FAR, simply because they can create it out of thin air, and dont have to chop their own yews to sell all day...

 

 

 

This certainly kills RWT's business, provides those who want to buy their account to the top even cheaper gp (form Jagex's numbers, $10 gets you 2m atm), and provides an additional source of income for Jagex, one that they can control too...

 

 

 

And what is their arguement?

 

 

 

On the game side, the legitimate players who don't buy gold feel their efforts are going to waste - why take the time to level skills the proper way if you can just buy some gold? It cheapens the game. Also, the players who do buy gold find it becomes so easy for them to get ahead, they get bored and leave.

 

 

 

I agree to the extend that buying gold makes the game easier, but certainly ingame updates, such as a quest required to level your skill to a higher level is a solution? One could state that you need a quest to be able to smith Rune items, and the quest requirement for that on 1 part is 85 mining... Mining is an unbuyable skill, and hence you MUST play the game in order to get ahead...

 

 

 

But do you really think that if a player wants to buy all their buyable skills, finds out he cant, then decides "oh, I'll just play normally then"?

 

No way, he'll just move to anothe rgame, so 'losing those players' is not a valid argument...

 

 

 

Nor is it saying it will cheapen the game... Just as PK-ers look down on Skillers and vice versa, No Honor vs Honor, even p2p vs f2p... People will look down on those who wish to buy gp with real money, and those that want to spend their euro's will say that its their right to do so...

 

Let this controversy exist, its always a good source of debate...

 

 

 

 

 

So here comes the math part... Suppose that jagex starts selling geepee for $$$... I estimate that Jagex would first make inflation happen again, so items and skills will cost a lot, and hence will cost more $$$... A rate of about $3 per 1m geepee is still only 60% of what RWT's offer you (again, this is according to Jagex's own numbers), and at no risk of not getting it at all, or other twists and turns... When you buy from Jagex, you know its safe...

 

 

 

If they would be able to sell (according to their own numbers) 1300 billion gp in 2008, this would generate 4 million over the year, instead of cost you money...

 

 

 

Jagex could do a lot in order to make one feel proud of an achievement, knowing that one worked hard for it... Infact you've already started with the reward for Clan Wars...

 

 

 

 

 

But you forgot one major force in this game...

 

 

 

The players...

 

 

 

Ask us to sign a petition to send to the UN, and make a crime like this recognized by The Hague's International Court of Law... Surely millions of autographs from many different people on many different games will change government policy... It has done so in the past, it can do it again...

 

 

 

Personally I think Jagex made this decision with a calculator, and took the easy route for them out... I do not think they anticipated the ammount of people that will give up their memberships over this, nor the power of word of mouth for people who discourage the game to others, nor any of the other games that will jump into this gaping hole...

 

 

 

I found some pictures saying they'll change this, and I truly hope they do... Because if I list what this game just made impossible for me and my clan to function properly in our unique way, it might just be too much...

[lord_troyus]

I suppose its some comfort that jagex aren't selling RS gold for real currency. But at the other end the regulation of trades, and limiting the players too the GE is extremly uhhh limiting?

 

 

 

I think that there should be some law in place, but the companies are illegal on all grounds. Why would a law stop them when they use stolen cards and sweatshops already?

 

I can only think it would limit there advertising, which would slow them down but not stop them.

[armybuilder]

i totaly agree with you on this

 

Trading between clans members or friends for discount is something that happens often but the 3k rule now makes this very silly

 

Also the Ge al though from what you say it saves us money and i know the figures are correct because i was their when you found them. But it also cripples many peoples income and using the ge or a friends many people will use friends truly because they wont to help each other out.

 

 

 

As for Jagex selling their own Geepee as you put it i think its a very bad idea. I dont know about you but i feel if you want to spend your money on geepee then do it money wasted and fun time lost. If jagex sold their own money then everybody would work alot less harder for those all important levels and so runescape would defiantly i think become alot more unfriendier place as everyone would be bragging about money (i know its off the plot but you know im a out of the box thinker)

[Ghostlord101]

I think that these updates have not been fully thought through. Who is to say that trading will not just occur via people deliberatly getting themselves killed in the Bounty Hunter arena when wearing expensive gear by their customers?

 

 

 

Due to the game's natue of social interaction, there will always being ways of transfering wealth and as such there will always be RWT. Jagex's attempts to hold back the flow of such illegal trade are by no means a permanent solution to the problem, but they will cause a permanent issues to the majority of honest, trustworthy players who stick to the rules.

[Ts_Stormrage]

 

As for Jagex selling their own Geepee as you put it i think its a very bad idea. I dont know about you but i feel if you want to spend your money on geepee then do it money wasted and fun time lost. If jagex sold their own money then everybody would work alot less harder for those all important levels and so runescape would defiantly i think become alot more unfriendier place as everyone would be bragging about money (i know its off the plot but you know im a out of the box thinker)

 

 

 

If I have to choose between a few braggers I can completely ignore, and these junk updates....

 

 

 

Well lets just say Jagex selling their own geepee is a lesser of 2 evils...

[Clan_Chat_Op]

Oh i'm sure jagex will make some changes in the future, everything will work out eventually.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Oh i'm sure jagex will make some changes in the future, everything will work out eventually.

 

 

 

They made pk-ing impossible to survive as single player...

 

They will make it impossible to lend out items...

 

They will make it impossible to give gifts to old time friends...

 

They will force you to trade at a price controlled institute...

 

They will made it impossible to share drops evenly now...

 

 

 

Well, you know very well what they destroyed, and I'm sure that there's atleast one thing that you liked most about this game...

 

 

 

 

 

And for what..? To stop real world traders?

 

They'll just make a horde of bots flood the server, make 3k by doing whatever, and drop trade it to the buyer of geepee...

 

 

 

Now I know why you made more worlds, Jagex, not for the immense ammount of people that will still be playing, but to accomodate the droptrading bots...

[oegly41]

Well, your thread sickens me.

 

 

 

Yes, the new trade update is a bad thing, so because it's bad, you say it's communism?

 

 

 

Sure, planned economy is a big part of communism, which GE is a great example of. GE is a good update, which makes the market more reliable. People ranted about it at first, but if they have stayed to get used to it, they would like it.

 

 

 

The trade thing, on the other hand, also has its roots in communism, but no communist, not even Stalin(who destroyed communism's name with his own sick way of ruling a country) would have come up with that update to be communistic.

 

 

 

I find myself discriminated when people bring up communism every time Jagex kvurp up. Communism is a good thing, for Marx' sake!

[Duke_Freedom]

This is ofcourse completely unfair, it forces you basicly to use the Grand Exchange for nearly everything, and it has destroyed one aspect of what an MMORPG should be... A Massive MULTI-PLAYER Online Role Playing Game...

 

 

 

Multiplayer jagex, meaning multiple people play it with eachother... You destroyed one of the largest aspects of social interaction in your game...

 

 

 

Yup, Jagex sacrificed a lot in what they apparently want to reach so badly.

 

 

 

Jagex stated that in 2006 they banned 200 Billion gp, and so far in 11 months in 2007 already 525 billion gp, and if continuing like this, it'd ammount to 8,000 billion gp in 2010...

 

 

 

The extrapolation is a joke IMO. It's not like their player base will continue to grow this exponentially, and the amount of RWT is obviously linked to the player population somehow.

 

 

 

Personally I think Jagex made this decision with a calculator, and took the easy route for them out...

 

 

 

Actually, I don't think they took the "easy rout out", considering the massive effort and time that went into the updates that were all required to obtain the end result they want so desperately (= no RWT). They would have been much easier off "legalizing" RWT somehow.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Jagex stated that in 2006 they banned 200 Billion gp, and so far in 11 months in 2007 already 525 billion gp, and if continuing like this, it'd ammount to 8,000 billion gp in 2010...

 

 

 

The extrapolation is a joke IMO. It's not like their player base will continue to grow this exponentially, and the amount of RWT is obviously linked to the player population somehow.

 

 

 

I know it is... If anything, this update will cause their playerbase to plummet like a rock... The only reason they can possibly have such growth in the ammount of GP they ban, is more and more bots being used.., because they're getting banned and the gp not sold in time...

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I think Jagex made this decision with a calculator, and took the easy route for them out...

 

 

 

Actually, I don't think they took the "easy rout out", considering the massive effort and time that went into the updates that were all required to obtain the end result they want so desperately (= no RWT). They would have been much easier off "legalizing" RWT somehow.

 

 

 

Actually, if they "legalised" it (which is only possible if Jagex sold the geepee themselves) they'd have the put in man hours after it... Right now they're done... Its implementing the trade rule, and voila... RWT gone, players gone, game gone...

[tryto]

A runite curtain has descended upon Runescape.

[22woger22]

lol, I like the communist references littered throughout this thread. The banner rocks too. :P

 

 

 

Nice observations!

[Ts_Stormrage]

lol, I like the communist references littered throughout this thread. The banner rocks too. :P

 

 

 

Nice observations!

 

 

 

Thank you, but it is true...

 

 

 

Although communism works in theory, it does not work in a gameworld full of greedy little over-achievers... people want things and they want a lot of it, and they want it as cheap and easy as possible...

 

 

 

Ssetting or even LOCKING prices in place as what is happening now completely destroys free trade...

 

 

 

Lately, PK-ing died, Trading died, Merchanting died...

[Armadyllo]

So here comes the math part... Suppose that jagex starts selling geepee for $$$... I estimate that Jagex would first make inflation happen again, so items and skills will cost a lot, and hence will cost more $$$... A rate of about $3 per 1m geepee is still only 60% of what RWT's offer you...

 

 

 

Stormrage is right about the inflation!

 

 

 

Okay, so Jagex starts selling RS currency. They'd need to undercut the RWTs if they wanted to do any business, so they'd need to sell it very cheap and in very large quantities. Cheap enough that a kid's allowance can make them a multimillionaire in RS.

 

 

 

-> Most RuneScapers have lots of coins.

 

 

 

Now all those players want to do something with their newfound wealth, they want to spend it on training their characters. Unfortunately there aren't enough people gathering the raw materials everyone wants to buy, so prices spiral up and up. That'd be the inflation Stormrage predicted, on a vast scale.

 

 

 

I'm not seeing this as a big improvement, to be honest. We may be worried about trading in RS going splat, but I'm pretty sure it'd also go splat if Jagex started selling RS cash themselves. Jagex could put their prices up to limit the buying of RS cash, but then they'd be undercut by the old RWT merchants again.

 

 

 

(Also, I don't want my hobby to turn into a constant process of handing money to Jagex.)

[Yomyth105]

You are absolutely correct. It used to be that merchants decided prices but now it's JaGeX. Communism!

 

 

 

It's not worth ruining the game just to stop cheaters.

[wild_goat_14]

I agree with Jagex here. I'm glad the RWT is gone, and I think that it is worth it. I'm glad tha everyone is on a level playing field. I'm glad that my parent's income can no longer affect how I do compared to others in the game. If RWT was legalized, I would probably quit.

 

 

 

good Job Jagex.

[FastForce]

Lol did you make that sig i love it =D>

 

 

 

But yeah by trying to get rid of macroers and rl traders jagex is killing the game for all the legit players which is like everyone

[chris1216]

And...you're wrong. So wrong in fact it's fairly hilarious.

 

 

 

Jagex, Runescape, and you are the essence of capitalism. Jagex provides a service, IE Runescape. You pay for that service. (Oh, by the way, you don't actually own your own character. Which means nothing BELONGS to you, a point that is important later).

 

 

 

If you like that service, you keep playing. If you do not like that service, you stop paying for it (playing). If you whine and complain about a service you are voluntarily paying for, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

It is NOT in fact a legitimate whine to say "but we put so much work into runescape" because A) You are hopefully paying for the FUN OF PLAYING (a point many seem to miss) and B) Nothing (your character, your items, etc) atcually belongs to you.

 

 

 

 

 

So all in all, my point is that you're pretty dumb. It's not like Jagex is tying you down and forcing you to play Runescape. Go to WoW if you dislike things now so much.

[liljjp]

Nice Thread and nice banner.

 

 

 

Agree with what you said, Jagex are commies now

[tryto]

And...you're wrong. So wrong in fact it's fairly hilarious.

 

 

 

Jagex, Runescape, and you are the essence of capitalism. Jagex provides a service, IE Runescape. You pay for that service. (Oh, by the way, you don't actually own your own character. Which means nothing BELONGS to you, a point that is important later).

 

 

 

If you like that service, you keep playing. If you do not like that service, you stop paying for it (playing). If you whine and complain about a service you are voluntarily paying for, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

It is NOT in fact a legitimate whine to say "but we put so much work into runescape" because A) You are hopefully paying for the FUN OF PLAYING (a point many seem to miss) and B) Nothing (your character, your items, etc) atcually belongs to you.

 

 

 

 

 

So all in all, my point is that you're pretty dumb. It's not like Jagex is tying you down and forcing you to play Runescape. Go to WoW if you dislike things now so much.

 

 

 

We're talking about the ingame economy, not the choice or real-life implications of playing.

[chris1216]

And...you're wrong. So wrong in fact it's fairly hilarious.

 

 

 

Jagex, Runescape, and you are the essence of capitalism. Jagex provides a service, IE Runescape. You pay for that service. (Oh, by the way, you don't actually own your own character. Which means nothing BELONGS to you, a point that is important later).

 

 

 

If you like that service, you keep playing. If you do not like that service, you stop paying for it (playing). If you whine and complain about a service you are voluntarily paying for, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

It is NOT in fact a legitimate whine to say "but we put so much work into runescape" because A) You are hopefully paying for the FUN OF PLAYING (a point many seem to miss) and B) Nothing (your character, your items, etc) atcually belongs to you.

 

 

 

 

 

So all in all, my point is that you're pretty dumb. It's not like Jagex is tying you down and forcing you to play Runescape. Go to WoW if you dislike things now so much.

 

 

 

We're talking about the ingame economy, not the choice or real-life implications of playing.

 

 

 

 

 

They're intertwined. Everyone who is involved in the economy is involved voluntarily. You can't enter a fantasy world where we actually ARE the characters, unless you plan on being one of those freaky LARPers or whatever.

 

 

 

Your participation in the economy is completely voluntary (playing/not playing), which makes it dumb to compare it to communism, a system of government that for many people is NOT voluntary.

[Ts_Stormrage]

And...you're wrong. So wrong in fact it's fairly hilarious.

 

 

 

Jagex, Runescape, and you are the essence of capitalism. Jagex provides a service, IE Runescape. You pay for that service. (Oh, by the way, you don't actually own your own character. Which means nothing BELONGS to you, a point that is important later).

 

 

 

If you like that service, you keep playing. If you do not like that service, you stop paying for it (playing). If you whine and complain about a service you are voluntarily paying for, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

It is NOT in fact a legitimate whine to say "but we put so much work into runescape" because A) You are hopefully paying for the FUN OF PLAYING (a point many seem to miss) and B) Nothing (your character, your items, etc) atcually belongs to you.

 

 

 

 

 

So all in all, my point is that you're pretty dumb. It's not like Jagex is tying you down and forcing you to play Runescape. Go to WoW if you dislike things now so much.

 

 

 

They arent forcing me to play runescape no, and yes I CHOOSE to pay for it... However, I purchased a years worth of membership, with a guarantee that the quality of the game would remain constant... It obviously hasnt (and about a few million people agree with me)...

 

 

 

Nothing did I state about Jagex being communist... I stated that they made trading in runescape communist... So thats already 2 mistakes you made...

 

 

 

You then proceed to call me an idiot, just for having a different opinion then you? Go play neopets or something... You mean nothing to me and your words mean nothing to anyone...

[highlanders]

It started with a sloopy beggining... but then..

 

 

 

You mean nothing to me and your words mean nothing to anyone...

 

Toucḫ̩̉̉.

[o_knames]

I don't think you mean communism. I think you're trying to argue that that Jagex is making RuneScape socialist. It's an important difference, although either way, it's incorrect.

 

 

 

Ironically, having Jagex sell gp would make the game more socialist, although even then the real world cost would likely be set by demand, which is a capitalist feature.

[RU_Insane]

And...you're wrong. So wrong in fact it's fairly hilarious.

 

 

 

Jagex, Runescape, and you are the essence of capitalism. Jagex provides a service, IE Runescape. You pay for that service. (Oh, by the way, you don't actually own your own character. Which means nothing BELONGS to you, a point that is important later).

 

 

 

If you like that service, you keep playing. If you do not like that service, you stop paying for it (playing). If you whine and complain about a service you are voluntarily paying for, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

It is NOT in fact a legitimate whine to say "but we put so much work into runescape" because A) You are hopefully paying for the FUN OF PLAYING (a point many seem to miss) and B) Nothing (your character, your items, etc) atcually belongs to you.

 

 

 

 

 

So all in all, my point is that you're pretty dumb. It's not like Jagex is tying you down and forcing you to play Runescape. Go to WoW if you dislike things now so much.

 

 

 

We're talking about the ingame economy, not the choice or real-life implications of playing.

 

 

 

Chris is correct. Many players quit because they didn't like the staking updates Jagex did in an effort to rid RWT. If Jagex loses paying members, they're losing a potential $5. If 100 people leave because of that update, it's at least $500, and so on. It's Jagex's fault, not the players. that they are leaving because of Jagex's fruitless updates. The economy will be effected in this way, because many people depended on stakers for certain goods and commodities, and because a good amount of stakers left, the demand for those goods have gone down, driving the price down, and this creates a ripple effect, affecting all of the goods end products and whatnot. Consider diamond bolts, which went down in price after stakers left the game, which affected the price of ores and gems, which also effected the F2P economy.