A question for fellow athiests

[Pur304]

But Satan commited a great sin in deception, he decieved a third of the angels in heaven into rebellion, he decieved Adam and Eve into sinning, and he decieves most poeple now into thinking he doesnt exist (which makes people believe that they arent sinning when really they are!)

[insane]

Eric, I believe I made a post on OT somewhere about God caring about the heart attitude behind our actions... I'll dig it up...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This heart attitude is shown through Isaiah 29:13 - Quote:

 

 

 

Then the LORD said, "Because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from Me, and their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the fact that God desires our hearts, and not our actions, is shown through Micah 6:6-8 - Quote:

 

 

 

With what shall I come to the LORD and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearlings calves? Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my first-born for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God desires our hearts to love him, not our actions. Making us only do right, is like making robots. You never know if the robot actually loves you and desires to be with you. It's all obligation, and I believe that is unfair.

[Godslayer]

It just seems more logical to beleive in God and do as he says, because if we're right, heaven! If we're wrong, nothing! Kinda a better deal than if we're right, nothing! If we're wrong, hell!

[Pyro]

It just seems more logical to beleive in God and do as he says, because if we're right, heaven! If we're wrong, nothing! Kinda a better deal than if we're right, nothing! If we're wrong, hell!

There are however more theories in this world than Christianity or Atheism. For all you know the particular God which is real could consider the worship of other gods the worst sin of them all, and punish you for it. It's far from as black and white as you seem to think. To think that there is any logic in belief or disbelief is to fool oneself, you can only feel and guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also hardly consider living your life a lie to be 'nothing'.

[Bubsa]

 

It just seems more logical to beleive in God and do as he says, because if we're right, heaven! If we're wrong, nothing! Kinda a better deal than if we're right, nothing! If we're wrong, hell!

There are however more theories in this world than Christianity or Atheism. For all you know the particular God which is real could consider the worship of other gods the worst sin of them all, and punish you for it. It's far from as black and white as you seem to think. To think that there is any logic in belief or disbelief is to fool oneself, you can only feel and guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also hardly consider living your life a lie to be 'nothing'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For instance, in Islam, worshipping any other God than Allah is really really really.

 

 

 

So if Islam turned out to be right you'd be screwed with that method.

[insane]

It just seems more logical to beleive in God and do as he says, because if we're right, heaven! If we're wrong, nothing! Kinda a better deal than if we're right, nothing! If we're wrong, hell!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is an appeal to consequences, so I could craft an argument that goes like;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"If it were true that my friend was an axe-murderer then that would really suck! Therefore he isn't"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is using the same flawed logic you did.

[jackalope14]

 

 

insane and gehjl, I'll repeat my question to jakalope: then why did God give us the ability to sin ? Why weren't we created with the ability to make the right decision every time ? Would solve all the problems then. And please don't tell me it's unrealistic. It's as realistic as suggesting God created everything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was Satan (a fallen angel) that made us sin.

 

 

 

Nope, not a valid answer. God made satan. Yes he made him good at the beginning but satan coudn't create evilness, he is just an angel,so god made it so that satan would fall and become evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Satan already turned evil by sinning towards God. God did not make him evil. By sinning against God, Satan had already fallen

[Lionheart_0]

This has nothing to do with anything going on (IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m even not talking about my own topic...), but I had a question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve been working on an argument (all based upon theories and logic) since I read all the commandments. The very first one was all i memorized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Thou(sp?) shall not have any other god but me", or something of the sorts. Now at first what I came up with, was this sounds wayyyyy too much like a human. Think about it, there have been many people in history, who think themselves great, and try to give the other people impressions that they are the head, and are above all else. Look at Hitler, you didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t agree with him, you got shot! Sorta the same thing here, you donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe, you go to "hell".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I thought of something further. What if this type of thinking was what it ment, that god wanted this power. WouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t this mean it was greedy? It wanted the power, to rule over other, so that it could be the top of everything. Greed is a sin, isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t it? And god canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t create a sin, cause it would contradict itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t know what IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m goanna get myself into here, but IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m guessing this would fall into the category of saying "god and religion were created by humans".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:Dont know why, but i felt the need to spell cheack this... first thing i have ever spell cheacked on here! :lol:

[magekillr]

This has nothing to do with anything going on (IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m even not talking about my own topic...), but I had a question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve been working on an argument (all based upon theories and logic) since I read all the commandments. The very first one was all i memorized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Thou(sp?) shall not have any other god but me", or something of the sorts. Now at first what I came up with, was this sounds wayyyyy too much like a human. Think about it, there have been many people in history, who think themselves great, and try to give the other people impressions that they are the head, and are above all else. Look at Hitler, you didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t agree with him, you got shot! Sorta the same thing here, you donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe, you go to "hell".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I thought of something further. What if this type of thinking was what it ment, that god wanted this power. WouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t this mean it was greedy? It wanted the power, to rule over other, so that it could be the top of everything. Greed is a sin, isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t it? And god canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t create a sin, cause it would contradict itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t know what IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m goanna get myself into here, but IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m guessing this would fall into the category of saying "god and religion were created by humans".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:Dont know why, but i felt the need to spell cheack this... first thing i have ever spell cheacked on here! :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ill let insane properly correct u...i could...but he would be much better at it

[Lionheart_0]

 

 

 

ill let insane properly correct u...i could...but he would be much better at it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really dont care, just correct me. Show what you know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one start a flame war about this. This is only my opinion. I will not reply to anyone who flames me.

[magekillr]

 

 

 

 

ill let insane properly correct u...i could...but he would be much better at it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really dont care, just correct me. Show what you know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one start a flame war about this. This is only my opinion. I will not reply to anyone who flames me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i really dont know much...and i just started reading the bible...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ive been a catholic like all my life...and i got tired of the corruptedness...so i left the church

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i only know to accept Jesus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i still have many questions myself...but not to disprove Christianity..but to strengthen it

[jackalope14]

This has nothing to do with anything going on (IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m even not talking about my own topic...), but I had a question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve been working on an argument (all based upon theories and logic) since I read all the commandments. The very first one was all i memorized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Thou(sp?) shall not have any other god but me", or something of the sorts. Now at first what I came up with, was this sounds wayyyyy too much like a human. Think about it, there have been many people in history, who think themselves great, and try to give the other people impressions that they are the head, and are above all else. Look at Hitler, you didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t agree with him, you got shot! Sorta the same thing here, you donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe, you go to "hell".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I thought of something further. What if this type of thinking was what it ment, that god wanted this power. WouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t this mean it was greedy? It wanted the power, to rule over other, so that it could be the top of everything. Greed is a sin, isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t it? And god canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t create a sin, cause it would contradict itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t know what IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m goanna get myself into here, but IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m guessing this would fall into the category of saying "god and religion were created by humans".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:Dont know why, but i felt the need to spell cheack this... first thing i have ever spell cheacked on here! :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, first of all God does want this power. He is a Jealous God according to the Bible and he deosnt want his people to be worshipping other Gods that are fake. If he made people and wants them to be grateful for things he has given them then I dont see a problem with that. And in the bible it does say that greed is sin, but keep in mind God is talkin to his "people" and telling them what to do and what not to do, the Bible is NOT a set of rules on what God should or shouldnt be like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And btw, dont forget this is GOD for gods sake (parden the pun), and that in it self makes him better than anyone of us.

[Eric2203]

Eric, I believe I made a post on OT somewhere about God caring about the heart attitude behind our actions... I'll dig it up...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This heart attitude is shown through Isaiah 29:13 - Quote:

 

 

 

Then the LORD said, "Because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from Me, and their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the fact that God desires our hearts, and not our actions, is shown through Micah 6:6-8 - Quote:

 

 

 

With what shall I come to the LORD and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearlings calves? Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my first-born for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God desires our hearts to love him, not our actions. Making us only do right, is like making robots. You never know if the robot actually loves you and desires to be with you. It's all obligation, and I believe that is unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So we're given the ability to sin to prove ourselves ? Fine if you think that. Personally, I don't buy it. I don't have any reason to prove myself. If God gave me one, then perhaps I'd try. I'm not saying I'm gonna do "bad" things on purpose, I'm saying I have no reason to prove myself to any God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, using quotes from the Bible to explain God (and therefore the Bible) is like going in circles. You need to explain it in your own words. The Bible is by definition biased towards God, so I doubt it'd give a contrary explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

saying "god and religion were created by humans".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a theory I've heard before actually. That people need some justification to their existence and therefore created something/someone to believe in. I say existence and not life, because finding a purpose to one's life is not as difficult as finding a purpose to what comes after (or before) life. Heard someone say once that the Bible was the biggest instrument of propaganda ever written. That's some food for thought. Note to everyone out here: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or the Bible by that comment, I'm merely repeating it. Plus I've never said I agreed or disagreed with it.

[jackalope14]

 

Eric, I believe I made a post on OT somewhere about God caring about the heart attitude behind our actions... I'll dig it up...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This heart attitude is shown through Isaiah 29:13 - Quote:

 

 

 

Then the LORD said, "Because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from Me, and their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the fact that God desires our hearts, and not our actions, is shown through Micah 6:6-8 - Quote:

 

 

 

With what shall I come to the LORD and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearlings calves? Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my first-born for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God desires our hearts to love him, not our actions. Making us only do right, is like making robots. You never know if the robot actually loves you and desires to be with you. It's all obligation, and I believe that is unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So we're given the ability to sin to prove ourselves ? Fine if you think that. Personally, I don't buy it. I don't have any reason to prove myself. If God gave me one, then perhaps I'd try. I'm not saying I'm gonna do "bad" things on purpose, I'm saying I have no reason to prove myself to any God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, using quotes from the Bible to explain God (and therefore the Bible) is like going in circles. You need to explain it in your own words. The Bible is by definition biased towards God, so I doubt it'd give a contrary explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

saying "god and religion were created by humans".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a theory I've heard before actually. That people need some justification to their existence and therefore created something/someone to believe in. I say existence and not life, because finding a purpose to one's life is not as difficult as finding a purpose to what comes after (or before) life. Heard someone say once that the Bible was the biggest instrument of propaganda ever written. That's some food for thought. Note to everyone out here: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or the Bible by that comment, I'm merely repeating it. Plus I've never said I agreed or disagreed with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you saying that you wouldnt want to prove to God that you loved him and accepted him after all that he did for you. (such as umm.....CREATE you).

 

 

 

And dont go saying "Well I dont belive in God, so why should I prove something to him?" because this debate isnt about wether God exists or not it is about if there was undeniable proof that he was real, what you would do.

[kido14]

 

1 of my tattoos,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so you're body is your temple and you've desicrated it. You can't get into heaven.....great rules to live by.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a huge problem with the way "heaven" is set up. A guy who rapes and murders 200 people can get into heaven as long as he accepts christ as his savior, then he's washed of his sins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can live my life doing nothing but helping other people never doing one thing wrong, but if I dont accept christ as my lord and savior I can't get into heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heaven sounds like a racist country club to me

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know this is kind of late to reply to this.. Anyways

 

 

 

So if this murder guy GENUINELY started believing in God, you expect God to turn him down?

 

 

 

This is a big difference in a lot of denominations.. Some people believe you get to heaven just by doing good things, and not by faith. If you believe in God, you will have the desire to do good deeds. Why would God accept you into heaven if you didn't believe in him? That makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's all part of the plan, eh. I'll remember that the next time a malnuourished and diseased baby dies at 8 months old. God is just trying to save it, duh!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like jackalope has been saying the whole time.. Due to the amount of corruption and sin in the world, and the original sin commited by Adam and Eve, there is pain and suffering in the world. Your question is one of the main reason some people don't buy into Christianity.. "Life is unfair" Is it fair that an innocent victim gets shot in a gang fight? Ah, where was I going with this lol? Bleh, its 1:54 in the morning and Im kind of tired..

 

 

 

Hope all of that made any kind of sense lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, Jackalope, of the few posts I have read here, you have been having some great posts, and I hope the original people I quoted as well as you see this post.

[kido14]

 

1 of my tattoos,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so you're body is your temple and you've desicrated it. You can't get into heaven.....great rules to live by.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a huge problem with the way "heaven" is set up. A guy who rapes and murders 200 people can get into heaven as long as he accepts christ as his savior, then he's washed of his sins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can live my life doing nothing but helping other people never doing one thing wrong, but if I dont accept christ as my lord and savior I can't get into heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heaven sounds like a racist country club to me

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know this is kind of late to reply to this.. Anyways

 

 

 

So if this murder guy GENUINELY started believing in God, you expect God to turn him down?

 

 

 

This is a big difference in a lot of denominations.. Some people believe you get to heaven just by doing good things, and not by faith. If you believe in God, you will have the desire to do good deeds. Why would God accept you into heaven if you didn't believe in him? That makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's all part of the plan, eh. I'll remember that the next time a malnuourished and diseased baby dies at 8 months old. God is just trying to save it, duh!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like jackalope has been saying the whole time.. Due to the amount of corruption and sin in the world, and the original sin commited by Adam and Eve, there is pain and suffering in the world. Your question is one of the main reason some people don't buy into Christianity.. "Life is unfair" Is it fair that an innocent victim gets shot in a gang fight? Ah, where was I going with this lol? Bleh, its 1:54 in the morning and Im kind of tired..

 

 

 

Hope all of that made any kind of sense lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, Jackalope, of the few posts I have read here, you have been having some great posts, and I hope the original people I quoted as well as you see this post.

 

 

 

Also, has anyone else noticed that a lot of the posts against God haven't really made a lot of sense? I mean this in a 'non-flame' kind of way.. What Eric wrote made no sense(sorry Eric). But how does using quotes from the Bible go in circles? I cannot understand where you are coming from. Also, you are making (a word here that means something about the questions you are asking make no sense, and are like taking something out of context from a book if that makes any sense) statements.

 

 

 

For example, "So we're given the ability to sin to prove ourselves?" That is a horrible question.. That has nothing to do with what he was saying.. We were given free will so that we can glorify God in the things that we do. Exactly like insane said.. What good would it be to mprogram a robot to worship you? It would just give you an empty feeling. If God made it so everybody worships him without free will, people would be just like robots to him. Sheesh I hope this made any sense bahaha.

[____]

So you saying that you wouldnt want to prove to God that you loved him and accepted him after all that he did for you. (such as umm.....CREATE you).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Creating me would be squat if he did nothing else other than that.

 

 

 

Much like parents who give birth then dump the kids in a trash can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you were said kid would you love your parents if they did that?

 

 

 

I'd have to question your judgement if you did :-?

[jackalope14]

 

So you saying that you wouldnt want to prove to God that you loved him and accepted him after all that he did for you. (such as umm.....CREATE you).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Creating me would be squat if he did nothing else other than that.

 

 

 

Much like parents who give birth then dump the kids in a trash can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you were said kid would you love your parents if they did that?

 

 

 

I'd have to question your judgement if you did :-?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, God giving us the oppertunity to live in Heaven with him for eternity= dumping us in the trash can

[kido14]

Dark, that made absolutely no sense.. How does God dump us into trashcans? God doesn't just create people, and nothing else.. What is your idea of God? That he just sits there and creates people? I don't mean this in a literal way( for example, Bruce almight) but, he listens and answers peoples plans for example.

[KnightLite]

 

So you saying that you wouldnt want to prove to God that you loved him and accepted him after all that he did for you. (such as umm.....CREATE you).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Creating me would be squat if he did nothing else other than that.

 

 

 

Much like parents who give birth then dump the kids in a trash can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you were said kid would you love your parents if they did that?

 

 

 

I'd have to question your judgement if you did :-?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

honestly that made no sence...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think jackalope translated it and i agree with her tho..

[Death_By_Pod]

 

 

 

So please, don't ignorantly bash Christians unless you've actually looked at the Bible. If you have you've probably got more knowledge about it than half the pro-atheist debaters in this forum - and that really disappoints me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really have to disagree with this point; if we can't question things we havenÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t studied then we would all be ignorant sheep (The same reason why an English translation of the bible, King James Version was ordered. So people could read, understand and question it).

 

 

 

Hey you can't tell a politician your thoughts because youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re not a politician.

 

 

 

You can't tell a doctor what you might think is wrong with you because your not a doctor.

 

 

 

Your can't tell a business man that risking 1 million dollars to gain 1 million at 50% odds is bad because hey your not a business man.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You could go on forever with this. I devote a lot of my time to these sorts of things and I just don't have enough time to fit reading a bible in. What's more I don't really things it's relevant to read the bible since it's the people of the religion that make the religion (without people what's the use of the religion).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I really need anything then I should ask a scholar or read a scholarly text. We do this all the time, do we ask our parents about [subject] problems or do we consult the textbook; the textbook, why because it's a scholarly text.

 

 

 

I don't think the bible is a text book much in the same way we don't go on excursions to the rainforest to talk about logging; we usually refer to a report or some such.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway my opinion on this subject as an agnostic is that evidence EITHER way I would automatically dismiss it as a delusion. If someone claimed to be God and performed miracles I would think I'm crazy and if some claimed to have a theory that claimed to disprove God I would think they are crazy. I mean I would think these things are interesting but I just can't accept them for fact much in the same way people can't accept scientific theories as fact (see big bang, evolution, gravity, the world is round et al.); after all the definition of a theory is that it's a fact.

 

 

 

I think it's irrelevant to discuss these things; I'm here now enjoying myself and there is nothing that an invisible person can do to change it (since by their definition they canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t interact with our world). What is God's stance on people who donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t deny his word but are just overly cautious?

[Eric2203]

 

 

Eric, I believe I made a post on OT somewhere about God caring about the heart attitude behind our actions... I'll dig it up...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This heart attitude is shown through Isaiah 29:13 - Quote:

 

 

 

Then the LORD said, "Because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, but they remove their hearts far from Me, and their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the fact that God desires our hearts, and not our actions, is shown through Micah 6:6-8 - Quote:

 

 

 

With what shall I come to the LORD and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearlings calves? Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my first-born for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God desires our hearts to love him, not our actions. Making us only do right, is like making robots. You never know if the robot actually loves you and desires to be with you. It's all obligation, and I believe that is unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So we're given the ability to sin to prove ourselves ? Fine if you think that. Personally, I don't buy it. I don't have any reason to prove myself. If God gave me one, then perhaps I'd try. I'm not saying I'm gonna do "bad" things on purpose, I'm saying I have no reason to prove myself to any God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, using quotes from the Bible to explain God (and therefore the Bible) is like going in circles. You need to explain it in your own words. The Bible is by definition biased towards God, so I doubt it'd give a contrary explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

saying "god and religion were created by humans".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a theory I've heard before actually. That people need some justification to their existence and therefore created something/someone to believe in. I say existence and not life, because finding a purpose to one's life is not as difficult as finding a purpose to what comes after (or before) life. Heard someone say once that the Bible was the biggest instrument of propaganda ever written. That's some food for thought. Note to everyone out here: I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or the Bible by that comment, I'm merely repeating it. Plus I've never said I agreed or disagreed with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you saying that you wouldnt want to prove to God that you loved him and accepted him after all that he did for you. (such as umm.....CREATE you).

 

 

 

And dont go saying "Well I dont belive in God, so why should I prove something to him?" because this debate isnt about wether God exists or not it is about if there was undeniable proof that he was real, what you would do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But that's the whole point, don't you see ? I don't have any reason to believe He created me or that He exists for that matter. So who am I proving this to ? Nobody as far as I am concerned. You need to believe in God first in order to prove something to God. Doesn't that make sense (if you don't believe or are agnostic, that is) ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I had undeniable proof, then I'd act as such. I said before I was agnostic, I don't see why I would deny His existence if it was proven to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, has anyone else noticed that a lot of the posts against God haven't really made a lot of sense? I mean this in a 'non-flame' kind of way.. What Eric wrote made no sense(sorry Eric). But how does using quotes from the Bible go in circles? I cannot understand where you are coming from. Also, you are making (a word here that means something about the questions you are asking make no sense, and are like taking something out of context from a book if that makes any sense) statements.

 

 

 

For example, "So we're given the ability to sin to prove ourselves?" That is a horrible question.. That has nothing to do with what he was saying.. We were given free will so that we can glorify God in the things that we do. Exactly like insane said.. What good would it be to mprogram a robot to worship you? It would just give you an empty feeling. If God made it so everybody worships him without free will, people would be just like robots to him. Sheesh I hope this made any sense bahaha.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, let me explain. The Bible is a result of God's existence for believers. As jackalope (I think) said, He talks to us through it. The Bible wouldn't exist without God, so proving something about God using the Bible is pointless, since, by essence, you must believe in God already to believe in the Bible. See where I'm going ? I can't think of a good comparison rght now, but I hope you understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He didn't mention free will, otherwise I'd have returned the question: "why give us free will ?". Ok perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "prove". But how else can you show your love of God if not by acting the way He supposedly wants you to ? insane said it had nothing to do with actions, yet his Bible quote end with "to do justice", which does require actions. Can't do justice by simply wishing it. And how does that answer my question that he lets us sin to begin with instead of having made us unable to sin ? That was my original question. I can understand you don't think of it as "proving yourself" since you believe in God, but accept that to me it feels that way. I try to do justice and love kindness, to quote insane, in my everyday life, but that's for my own personal satisfaction of the mind, not for a God. Therefore having to do it for a God feels like proving myself. I'm not asking you to agree, but to understand where I'm coming from.

[DaN]

Who ever wrote the bible was an illiterate moron.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Altho ill admit theres some good stories in their.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God has his reasons and purposes for everything that we don't know the answer to. so why judge and question Him when you don't know His thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well as long as he has his reasons then thats ok!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for me im turning to a new god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All Hail the new god!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously this guy is awsome he can make an entire nation [cabbage] themselfs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So he killed a few Americans please dont think bad of him for that he had his reasons to do what he did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hail almighty Osama may you guide us well..

[NorthernHero]

 

 

 

insane and gehjl, I'll repeat my question to jakalope: then why did God give us the ability to sin ? Why weren't we created with the ability to make the right decision every time ? Would solve all the problems then. And please don't tell me it's unrealistic. It's as realistic as suggesting God created everything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was Satan (a fallen angel) that made us sin.

 

 

 

Nope, not a valid answer. God made satan. Yes he made him good at the beginning but satan coudn't create evilness, he is just an angel,so god made it so that satan would fall and become evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Satan already turned evil by sinning towards God. God did not make him evil. By sinning against God, Satan had already fallen

 

 

 

Hmm, do I have to repeat myself? Satan didin't create himself. God made him evil by creating him the way he is, the way that he could become evil at some point and sin against god.

 

 

 

Also, i've heard there is a partin bibble that says that god foresees everything that happens in this world, so he must foreseen that if he created satan he would turn evil, right?

 

 

 

So yep, I say its 100% gods fault satan become evil. The question is only, why would god do something like that?

[Mercifull]

blah blah bin laden blah blah

Maybe today wasnt the best of days to post this (see london terror attacks)