Jagex and Bugs (from 18 Aug 09 update thread)

[Laura]

We expect our operating systems' code to be bug free as well, but we all know how that goes, right?

Probably the statement that wraps up my point. When an OS is buggy or is not to one's favor, it is quickly dumped for a different OS. Whether or not you agree with the Vista fiasco or not, the media portrayed it as a buggy and frustrating operating system. Because of this, many people switched their OS or reverted to one they were more comfortable with. Should the bugs ever outweigh the intended updates, people will being to quit. If you understand why the bugs are there, that's fine. As for myself, I can understand and I still don't care. They have plenty of options to choose from, and while I have not quit, I do look down on it heavily.

[swampjedi]

Kietaro, that sounds awesome. Just keep in mind that even that is a toy project compared to even a small-scale production environment. I am not knocking what you did, because it's awesome (I once wrote a PONG clone for the NES, which was super fun).

 

 

 

Yes, too much focus on the metaphor. Agreed.

[Kenshinjapan]

I've written code for a class and I found it extremely hard. I can only imagine how much more difficult it is for them :? .

[xpx]

 

 

 

Lmao. You are a programmer, but that doesn't mean you should try and lord the forums and insult people like a teenager.

 

 

 

Guess what, i am fully aware of the stress most programmers have to work trough, and have a good friend who designed, developed and is running(l6vi, if anyone from scapeboard still remembers) a fully functional multiplayer game. I understand that people make mistakes, but what i'm mostly hinting in that post(and what you left out of my post, another nod there) is that construction is known to bring about bugs that can have catastropic effects, and knowingly releasing a construction update that has atleast 7 bugs in it and seriously hinderes playing the game(these weren't small bugs, they were there for everyone, easily reproduceable and confusing, also one of them granted you free planking(MAJOR bug)). I didn't make the post to say that jagex as a whole has bad progammers(and didn't make major insults towards them like some), but that this was a completely raw update and either rushed out or badly programmed/bad QA work. SOMEONE messed up, now it's not mine to determine, but yes, i do think, turning out such an appaling piece of programming, that someone should be dealt for what they did.

 

 

 

I don't get your contradictory statement. You said you are fully aware of what programmers have to deal with, but you thought that Construction would be released with zero bugs? First, Construction was something that they had to update their game engine to support - twice. Second, the bugs that came with Construction were most likely because they tried something new with their engine - and regardless of how much testing one could have did, I don't think that the case could have been that > 1,500 players would be ejected from a POH at the same time and allow a handful of players to continue attacking others, as if they were in a POH, would have been caught anyway.

 

 

 

I'll also tell you - the update wasn't badly programmed or tested, honestly - the testing environment is a much more sane environment than a live environment is, and while things should always be the same, they don't always react the same as if they would publicly (case in point: the alleged new server connections that didn't work as planned due to kernel memory not being large enough).

 

 

 

Lastly, there's a radical difference between "appalling" programming and a few oops glitches here and there; one of them means that players lose plenty of money, items or skills; the other means that it was some only quick annoyance. "Invalid teleport" sounds more like an annoyance to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My contrary statement is that since one piece of the game is a hotspot of bugs(major bugs), they should have thorouly tested it not just rushed it out(as it seems they did).

 

 

 

Yet again you are ignorant about what i have actually said. I didn't post of one little inconvenient bug, there were loads, differing in scale and importance, but the fact is, they made using that specific content unbearable for me and gave an unfair advantage to some people(free planking, for example). If you really are saying that this sort of stuff is completely OK to pass by then i'll hold you to it, but i am more concerned about the drop of quality as of late(yet again, i havn't complained before, and see this specific update and the last couple of months as a let down by the QA/programming team/jagex in general).

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

We expect our operating systems' code to be bug free as well, but we all know how that goes, right?

Probably the statement that wraps up my point. When an OS is buggy or is not to one's favor, it is quickly dumped for a different OS. Whether or not you agree with the Vista fiasco or not, the media portrayed it as a buggy and frustrating operating system. Because of this, many people switched their OS or reverted to one they were more comfortable with. Should the bugs ever outweigh the intended updates, people will being to quit. If you understand why the bugs are there, that's fine. As for myself, I can understand and I still don't care. They have plenty of options to choose from, and while I have not quit, I do look down on it heavily.

 

I'll agree that if an OS is too buggy, people will run away from it, but that's not what I perceived your statement to be. You said that you paid for updates and/or software to be bug-free; that's a fallacy at best. Software will always have bugs in it, but you're most likely paying for it to be bug-free to a certain extent. Not even jumping ship will accomplish bug-free software.

[oropher]

There's tens of thousands of free beta testers, Jagex doesn't use them, their fault.

 

 

 

Beta testing is possible on something like WoW, because the servers arent updated that often. In rs you get updates weekly.

[n64jive]

Testing large amounts of integrated code is difficult, I agree. However, having a QA team look over the final product, or sending it off to beta testers isn't a difficult process. I bet there is a large audience of RS players that would rather beta test for fun rather than actually play the game(I don't have time for either, but if I did, I wouldn't mind doing some monthly beta testing)...

 

 

 

Jagex does a good job, but getting to great is really what everyone wants, which isn't too much to ask.

 

 

 

Considering it's only $6 a month, I would say that I am satisfied.

[Yoko Kurama]

Zenaku,

 

 

 

You know what? Fine. Blame Jagex for being arrogant [puncture]s - but keep in mind that the coders aren't the public face of the company.

 

 

 

No but Jagex is one unit; they should be aware and probably are aware that if something wrong goes on the end of coders, they have to collectively owe up to the mistake. It doesn't matter if they aren't the public face of the company; this kind of thing is HORRIBLE PR, and it reflects negatively on Jagex. You can see the effect on RS forums, and even Tip.it. Both are places which are hugely Pro-Jagex, but left and right players are distraught and dissatisfied. Jagex assumes that since its customer base is mostly kids that they can do whatever they want, but that isn't the case. Kids aren't completely naive. Like, I said NO OTHER COMPANY on the face of the Earth gets away with that kind of stuff, and they have to reduce their profits by resupplying faulty material, and here all Jagex has to do is; respawn a few items in people's banks or do a rollback(if the problem is widespread), it doesn't even cost them money, so there is absolutely no reason not to. It shows a lack of respect and an abundunce of apathy and loathing for their customers.

 

 

 

As for "apologizing" and "reimbursing" - those aren't even possible, if you think about it.

 

 

 

No you need to just think what you just said, because I am not quite sure you realize what you just said. Even the BIGGEST corporations apologize and reimburse for this kind of stuff when their fault is made public knowledge, are you seriously saying that Jagex is above such things? This is morally/ethically unjustifiable, and there might be some legal troubles(even Microsoft had to conceede to court orders despite their 'company policy' being different prior to that), just because two people agree to an agreement doesn't mean it would be held in court. I am sure the BBB has something to say about Jagex's practices. And most important of all, this is HORRIBLE PR.

 

 

 

 

 

When you're that big, you CANNOT make exceptions to your rules.

 

 

 

Jagex isn't 'that' big, like I said, much bigger corporations that would make Jagex look like a small business have had to cave in. And in the eyes of most players, this was *not* a 'rule', most people thought they would do the right thing; hence the outrage. And why shouldn't they? Just about every customer in the world has this expectation. So I don't see what you are trying to point out? That they should go out of their way, to maintain a rule that wasn't even well known(they didn't even allow discussion on such things) and one that any businessman with half a brain follows?

 

 

 

 

 

If they reimbursed at all, they'd have to do it for everyone.

 

 

 

I don't see the problem with that, or just saying 'from this point on we will reimburse you if it is proven that we are at fault', just because they have been doing something wrong(from a business and morality point of view), doesn't mean they should continue to do it because they don't want to do it for everyone. It is common sense that this is the 'right' thing to do. They keep detailed logs of everything anyways. People would be for the most part willing to forgive them if they changed their stance--even for just future incidents, and they wouldn't have more distraught people over major bugs--which seem to be a common occurence on their parts. Seriously, just how long do you or they think they can keep this up? Like I said, the 350M debacle; the response to it was significant, players were disillusioned.

 

 

 

Like I said a lot of people are distraught at the moment, and given Jagex's track record as of late, I would like to see them respond when one of their bugs effects a significant portion of the population.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then you'd have to hire a bunch of people just to investigate - and that would drive costs up and cut profits.

 

See above; even just future incidents would be more acceptable than what the current policy, and they keep up detailed logs anyways. If they act fast on bugs, then even if anything happens, it would only take at most maybe a day or two to refund items.

 

 

 

 

 

It's much better for a few people who lose their stuff to quit than to do that.

 

 

 

Runescape (website) visitors have been declining(if you take a look any of the various websites that keep track of this stuff),this is not the kind of thing they need. In times of an economic recession, where (regardless of what you beleive) a lot of people aren't happy with the updates this year, and Runescape visitors have been declining, this would be a serious concern if I was Andrew Gower. And the number of people quitting over this stuff is not something easily dismissed. It will only take a couple more of such instances(of which I have no doubt that Jagex has the incompetency to produce) to wake up the masses. When they realize that Jagex has a tendency to produce game ending bugs(whether it is their fault or simply honest mistakes) and that they will not be reimbursed when clearly Jagex is at fault particularly if there aren't enough exciting updates to keep them interested; beleive me, they will not stand for it, as no customer does.

 

 

 

That's the harsh reality of business.

 

 

 

That is the harsh reality of Jagex, not the business world. 99% of corporations/business out there who are much larger than Jagex, will happily reimburse their customers even at the cost of profits because its the sensible thing to do(even from a pure profit motive). Jagex isn't bigger than those people and can't pretend any longer that they are above such things.

 

 

 

And apologies don't even make sense. We play their game - yes, we pay, but they don't guarantee ANYTHING. They aren't a webhosting company that guarantees 99.9% uptime or something.

 

 

 

I mentioned earlier in my response that people on RSOF and Tip.it have been unnecessarily 'Pro-Jagex' for a very long time, refusing to even consider the possibility that Jagex *might* be at fault and that their response to such situations just *might* be insufficient or unacceptable; this is an attitude I attribute to sheeple, and while I mean no disrespect, it seems to me that you qualify as one.

 

 

 

Do you just realize what you just said? Take a moment, and re-read(a couple times might do the trick) and try to actually comprehend what you just wrote. Are you kidding me? Can you comprehend how utterly ludicrous you sound?

 

 

 

This kind of stuff isn't 'guaranteed' because most people assume based on common sense that this is the norm; that when you offer a service, that you generally(I say this because I am uncertain of the kind of treatment you usually receive from your producers and of which world you live in) expect that they have performed their job well. When you go and buy a brand new car, you generally expect that you can actually start it and it can actually transport you(the mileage advertised is irrelevant, people would expect it work regardless of it). If for instance, such a thing did not happen, do you honestly expect that the company in question could get away with the aforemention attitude which you just spewed?

 

 

 

Heck, I can go to the DOLLAR store(not the ones that are part of the DOLLARAMA chain, but locally owned ones--where I don't even know the owner) and despite the fact nearly all of them have a no-refund policy, I can refund it if I tell them that the product I purchased was faulty(I have done so quite a few times and they have happily complied).

 

 

 

If something as tiny as Dollar store can refund things, and a corporation as large as Microsoft can refund things(despite having similar policies to that of Jagex), Jagex is no exception to what should be evidently common sense and the norm; that when you purchase something, you expect it work, that when you are engaging in business with adults/businessmen/supplies/sellers etc., that you expect them to be professionals and do their job relatively well, it doesn't matter if it is difficult, if you are in a business (something you choose willingly to pursue) it is expected that this particular one thing, you do well. For you to even justify (or attempt to) what should not require some 'debate' and nothing more than common sense is just absolutely mind boggling.

 

 

 

 

 

All of that is tangential to my thread, though.

 

 

 

Based on your responses, it would seem that you seem to think that such people don't have genuine grievances, which is just not the case. Even the person you quoted could have had legitimate grievances(considering Jagex didn't reimburse--which indeed make such a thing the worst mistake in years) but you in what seems to be the sheeple manner in which members of Tip.it and RSOF flock behind Jagex unquestionably dismissed it and proceeded to rant. It is very much directly related to this thread, I assure you.

 

 

 

sadukar123, I doubt they want to drive people away from RS - because in doing so, what they'd really be doing is driving people away from Jagex.

 

 

 

And while I am not a conspiracy theorist, at this point, that argument is hard to easily dismiss.

 

 

 

And pissing your customers off ON PURPOSE is just bad business.

 

 

 

 

And that perfectly sums up the stance they *should* take on the aforementioned issue , my point exactly.

[swampjedi]

Quick reply, more later -

 

 

 

I don't give a crap about Jagex. I just know what it's like to be a developer forced to do crappy work due to management decisions, and then get blamed for it. Fair?

[Ravenkana]

Quick reply, more later -

 

 

 

I don't give a crap about Jagex. I just know what it's like to be a developer forced to do crappy work due to management decisions, and then get blamed for it. Fair?

No. It really isn't. You can't defend buggy updates for the developers sake. Hell, most of the time players don't even blame the developers- they blame QA.

[Riemis]

They blame QA for not finding bugs that gave them less acces to a small aspect of the entire game for a few hours :roll:

 

(Notice the "less", "small" and "few"...)

[xpx]

They blame QA for not finding bugs that gave them less acces to a small aspect of the entire game for a few hours :roll:

 

(Notice the "less", "small" and "few"...)

 

Notice, LEARN TO READ. This thread did not originate from small bugs, if you aren't well informed enough, then why post on a discussion thread? Guess this also proves how much i know about the people that visit these forums.

[Ravenkana]

They blame QA for not finding bugs that gave them less acces to a small aspect of the entire game for a few hours :roll:

 

(Notice the "less", "small" and "few"...)

So, not being able to access your PoHs, being able to get infinite planks, losing 350 mil, or game modes being down on release are "small" bugs? Or are you saying that bugs are few and far in between? Cause some players have adopted the position of not playing updates for the first few days due to fear of bugs.

[swampjedi]

No. It really isn't. You can't defend buggy updates for the developers sake. Hell, most of the time players don't even blame the developers- they blame QA.

 

 

 

I'm not even going to blame QA. They probably get the code at the last second, because when things fall behind testing is the first thing to get cut.

 

 

 

The problem is how the process is rushed, and THAT is purely management.

[PastyGangsta]

I agree, people do not give them enough credit for all the work they do. But also, bugs can be fun sometimes (like how for almost a month all the bridges in HD were invisible).

 

 

 

Also, wouldn't this thread go in rants technically?

[Riemis]

Notice, LEARN TO READ. This thread did not originate from small bugs, if you aren't well informed enough, then why post on a discussion thread? Guess this also proves how much i know about the people that visit these forums.

 

So, not being able to access your PoHs, being able to get infinite planks, losing 350 mil, or game modes being down on release are "small" bugs? Or are you saying that bugs are few and far in between? Cause some players have adopted the position of not playing updates for the first few days due to fear of bugs.

 

 

 

I never said small bugs, I said bugs, and if you compare the amount of faulty things in the game due to bugs to the entire game itself, maybe you could realise that it is, in fact, very small amount of gameplay that is inaccesible for a short amount of time :roll:

 

Edit: and xpx, I have read the entire thread before I made that post, and I didn't care making a long post comparing cars to lines of code or defending Jagex, I just wanted to make my point clear. Your move.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I'll reply to more quotes later; going to catch the train home after this class.

 

 

 

Makato, I'd like to point something out again. Runescape is special because you can vote with your dollar while not quitting the game. If half a mill people let their subscription lapse, but still play the free game, they'd be accomplishing both.

 

 

 

I view that as rather hypocritical, to be honest - if you disagree with what Jagex is doing, or the direction that Jagex is going in, then you don't give them any money. They still get money from the ads that you're blocking viewing, so I usually do view it as silly to support some alleged evil corporation by hiding out in the 'free' variant of the game. Not to mention, I don't know if half a million people would just stop paying overnight, not unless they did something to seriously piss the community off...

[jettrider]

Don't give me any crap about writing code for a class. That's like comparing drawing a picture of a dinosaur versus wrestling one. One is a "toy project", one will eat you alive.

 

I was writing a simple program to test whether a string was a palindrome. I spent three hours trying to figure out what was going wrong on certain phrases, thinking all along that my code was correct, then I realized that my program was taking the wrong input on those phrases using next() instead of nextLine() #-o so yeah, I understand somewhat how simple things can get through, but...

 

 

 

I do have a problem as to how they approach it. The things that are slipping through have been more and more game-breaking. I don't care if an odd combination of items makes a graphical glitch or if my familiar gets stuck. But when bugs come out that players can abuse for big profits/experience, I'm astounded. As a tester, you should think like a player: "how can I abuse this to improve my character?" instead of "if I do something odd, what error message will the game give me?" because frankly only game breaking bugs are worrysome.

[xpx]

Notice, LEARN TO READ. This thread did not originate from small bugs, if you aren't well informed enough, then why post on a discussion thread? Guess this also proves how much i know about the people that visit these forums.

 

So, not being able to access your PoHs, being able to get infinite planks, losing 350 mil, or game modes being down on release are "small" bugs? Or are you saying that bugs are few and far in between? Cause some players have adopted the position of not playing updates for the first few days due to fear of bugs.

 

 

 

I never said small bugs, I said bugs, and if you compare the amount of faulty things in the game due to bugs to the entire game itself, maybe you could realise that it is, in fact, very small amount of gameplay that is inaccesible for a short amount of time :roll:

 

Edit: and xpx, I have read the entire thread before I made that post, and I didn't care making a long post comparing cars to lines of code or defending Jagex, I just wanted to make my point clear. Your move.

 

So you saying that jagex released the update on us to do the QA work ourselves and that the full game is supposed to be full of bugs after updates? Why release content that is utterly bugged(atleast 7 POH bugs) at all then? it's common sence alot of players would like to see the new content of the game when it's released and it'd be stupid to assume new content raw. Also it'd be stupid to assume that the old content gets contorted by every update, but in this update, it infact did. A 22 prayer fire cape? Invisible unattackable people in the wilderness? i'm guessing(and i'm not stupid enogh to write them here) that you have no idea on the extent these bugs have/could have/will cause.

 

 

 

Also, to make an example of the bugs still in place, i just had a full dm with my target with him dieing when he was out of food, and i didn't even get a kill message, not to mention he actually got his items back from the ground. Few minor bugs? I'd rather they'd stop these stupid MA polishings to worry about alot more pressing issues for a change.

[Outsanity]

While the original author's opinion IS vaild, so is mine, and mine is this:

 

 

 

If they really did their job, they would have caught the invalid teleport bug before releasing the update. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE got the bug before they fixed it. It wasn't a bug that was easily missed...it was as clear as night and day.

 

 

 

And I have a right to complain about poor quality and bug testing. I pay for this, and so do millions of others. Jagex is making a pretty penny from this game alone, and that includes the QA team. If I am helping raise someone's weekly paycheck, whether it be small or not, I want good quality from my game, and every single solitary update that has been released in the past 6 months alone has been bugged, and this update took the cake for most bugs found.

 

 

 

Construction, as xpx has said, has known to cause the most fatal bugs Runescape has ever seen. The Falador Massacre was so devistatingly bad that it is actually a historical event that happened in a VIDEO GAME. It's got it's own wikia page and there are countless videos made about it. People call it death day. Dooms day.

 

 

 

All of this over a Construction update (yes, I am aware it was the actual release of the skill) and years later Jagex has still not learned from their mistakes. We're lucky someone wasn't able to find another bug that could've led to more havoc. Given a few more days and I bet someone could've. Either way, millions of gp that should've left the game from planking making, did not. That was a fault in it's own right.

 

 

 

I just, for once, want an update with a max of maybe 1 or two small bugs. Only then am I going to be happy with what I am getting. Jagex is playing in the big leagues now as far as online gaming goes. They need to raise the standards.

[Riemis]

Notice, LEARN TO READ. This thread did not originate from small bugs, if you aren't well informed enough, then why post on a discussion thread? Guess this also proves how much i know about the people that visit these forums.

 

So, not being able to access your PoHs, being able to get infinite planks, losing 350 mil, or game modes being down on release are "small" bugs? Or are you saying that bugs are few and far in between? Cause some players have adopted the position of not playing updates for the first few days due to fear of bugs.

 

 

 

I never said small bugs, I said bugs, and if you compare the amount of faulty things in the game due to bugs to the entire game itself, maybe you could realise that it is, in fact, very small amount of gameplay that is inaccesible for a short amount of time :roll:

 

Edit: and xpx, I have read the entire thread before I made that post, and I didn't care making a long post comparing cars to lines of code or defending Jagex, I just wanted to make my point clear. Your move.

 

So you saying that jagex released the update on us to do the QA work ourselves and that the full game is supposed to be full of bugs after updates? Why release content that is utterly bugged(atleast 7 POH bugs) at all then? it's common sence alot of players would like to see the new content of the game when it's released and it'd be stupid to assume new content raw. Also it'd be stupid to assume that the old content gets contorted by every update, but in this update, it infact did. A 22 prayer fire cape? Invisible unattackable people in the wilderness? i'm guessing(and i'm not stupid enogh to write them here) that you have no idea on the extent these bugs have/could have/will cause.

 

 

 

Also, to make an example of the bugs still in place, i just had a full dm with my target with him dieing when he was out of food, and i didn't even get a kill message, not to mention he actually got his items back from the ground. Few minor bugs? I'd rather they'd stop these stupid MA polishings to worry about alot more pressing issues for a change.

 

Could please stop searching for hidden mesages in my posts? There are none, I just say that people complain about bugs that have no inpact on the entire game, and to take your examples: a 22 prayer firecape gives a few players that have it a boost in prayer, but compare it to the amount of players that don't have it? Same with the invisible people, the number of invisible ones will only piss people off for them losing stuff, but there is such thing as a warning before you enter PvP world, and this bug is even limited to a few worlds. And at least 7 construction bugs? My point was that there was much else to do while something is bugged, and every update is bugged as explained hundreds of times in this topic. You can spend your time training the other skills, play minigames, do quests, have fun with friends, talk to random npcs for 3 hours or just collect the coin spawn in varrock bank bank. Compare your 7 bugs with EVERY SINGLE working content any it will barely be noticable.

 

If you made a graph with as y-axis every hour of the past year, and as x-axis the %of gameplay that is bugged, you won't even notice the line.

[swampjedi]

And frankly, if you know production code at ALL, you'll know that that small a defect count is pretty amazing.

 

 

 

Listen folks, I think updates should be less buggy, too. But the problem lies with management scheduling, irreducible complexity, and code base clutter - NOT with the coders and testers sucking (more than likely). That's all I'm saying. I want you to go easy on my comrades. They're doing the best they can. Rail at the management.

[Bauke]

And frankly, if you know production code at ALL, you'll know that that small a defect count is pretty amazing.

 

 

 

Listen folks, I think updates should be less buggy, too. But the problem lies with management scheduling, irreducible complexity, and code base clutter - NOT with the coders and testers sucking (more than likely). That's all I'm saying. I want you to go easy on my comrades. They're doing the best they can. Rail at the management.

 

You might be a developer, but that does not mean you automatically know what the situation is at Jagex HQ.

[ValaraZ]

I love you Swampjedi.

 

 

 

I did few courses on coding in Uni and debugging those simple lines made me want to shoot myself in the leg so I can't even begin to think what it is like for Jagex.

 

 

 

Plus all the brats whining about:

 

 

 

- WILDERNES SBAK PLS

 

- FREE TRADE PLS

 

- AMAGAD BUG I LOST 300 PARTYHATSSSS111

 

 

 

So yes, not much more to say.

 

 

 

Apart from the fact that I like to read Rants section, it's priceless.

[swampjedi]

 

You might be a developer, but that does not mean you automatically know what the situation is at Jagex HQ.

 

 

 

No, but I can make a very educated guess, based on experience - but mainly knowing what research into successful and failed projects says. One major study found that 90% of failures are directly attributable to management.