Removal of new high level potions in PvP

[Wilmot]

People are getting distracted over what the real problem was with this update. It wasn't that skills helped combat - they do already - but the brutal nature of a MASSIVE boost at high level herblore and nothing else. It was all or nothing, either you had 90 herb and hit 46 with barrage or you have less and you hit 33. That's not 'gives skillers an advantage', it's 'pkers need herblore'. In a few months, people with high herblore would be pkers. The whole skillers vs pkers is irrelevent, this update simply moved herblore from a skiller skill to a pker skill. And for good reason, a fair few pkers were unimpressed that they now needed to get 90 herb.

 

Compare it to an update that makes an attack skillcape give you +40% woodcutting speed and you might see why pkers cried so much about it :)

[RayOxide]

:wall: UUUGGGHHH This was one of the ONLY things that would cut down the ammount of 76k'ers around. There is no way a 76k'er with no armour would be able to withstand the 90's of an AGS and the 100's of a Dark Bow....

 

Nice one Jagex...

 

I thought you looooooooved 76king

[Bladewing]

:wall: UUUGGGHHH This was one of the ONLY things that would cut down the ammount of 76k'ers around. There is no way a 76k'er with no armour would be able to withstand the 90's of an AGS and the 100's of a Dark Bow....

 

Nice one Jagex...

Nope, I bet it would INCREASE 76king. With the ability to get 1-hit, fewer players would risk equipment in "legitimate" pking. Anyone with under 90 herblore (hell, even some with 90+) would hang up their rune armor and just 76k or cease pvping entirely.

[swampjedi]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think they should have been removed from non-safe PvP. The reason? RS sucks at damage mitigation

 

Max hit should NOT be going up.

 

However, removing them for whining isn't acceptable.

[fat_klutz]

I don't know how to explain it but this update is crap. Max hits are increased further, Dbow special got ruined for (estimate) 90% of users, it is now possible for people with WORSE combat levels to be BETTER than people with higher combat stats, and herblore gets an update but something that skillers can't even profit off.

 

RS is not a game where combat and non-combat should mix. If RS was more conducive to training such non-combat skills perhaps it would be ok but this update makes these potions incredibly exclusive and gives a massive advantage to anybody who can use them WITHOUT reflecting this advantage in their combat level.

 

Hey... Looks like I was right in the last thread. They should make them tradeable. That would let them be put back into PVP and it would be a great boost to herbologist in terms of being able to make money.

[Demoli]

I don't know how to explain it but this update is crap. Max hits are increased further, Dbow special got ruined for (estimate) 90% of users, it is now possible for people with WORSE combat levels to be BETTER than people with higher combat stats, and herblore gets an update but something that skillers can't even profit off.

 

RS is not a game where combat and non-combat should mix. If RS was more conducive to training such non-combat skills perhaps it would be ok but this update makes these potions incredibly exclusive and gives a massive advantage to anybody who can use them WITHOUT reflecting this advantage in their combat level.

 

Hey... Looks like I was right in the last thread. They should make them tradeable. That would let them be put back into PVP and it would be a great boost to herbologist in terms of being able to make money.

 

It wouldn't work, it would end up costing more the supplies raterh than the pot, aswell as providing second to none incentive to raise the herblore lv.

[Riqualyn]

It wouldn't work, it would end up costing more the supplies raterh than the pot, aswell as providing second to none incentive to raise the herblore lv.

 

Supplies already cost more than the finished potions.

[fat_klutz]

No they wouldn't.

 

Supply and demand buddy. It would end up balancing it all out. You might point to other potions and say how come supply and demand doesn't hold true for them and my response would be because they are used to train levels. Since these potions are at the highest levels you wouldn't use them to train so the only ones being produced would be used. If it got to the point where it was unprofitable to make them people would stop, supply would go down and demand would increase and the potion would reach equilibrium again.

 

Here is another argument for why it was smart to take the potions out.

 

99 strength 13,034,431exp

99 attack 13,034,431exp

99 defense 13,034,431exp

1 herblroe 0exp

Total 39,103,293exp

 

Using super set would result in

 

118 Strength

118 Attack

118 Defense

 

96 Strength 9,684,577exp

96 Attack 9,684,577exp

96 Defense 9,684,577exp

90 Herblore 5,346,332exp

Total 34,400,053exp

 

With extreme pots would result in

 

>118 Strength

>118 Attack

>118 Defense

 

If someone can provide me the exact formula that would be nice. My point is people say I worked hard to get such a high level herblroe I should have the advantage. However EXP wise you SHOULDN'T have the advantage because that person you are now stronger than has more total EXP. Why should someone with less EXP be better than someone with more?

 

Now for the argument that we should remove all items from the game obtained by skillers like Dhide and such. No. These items are tradeable and as such available to everybody.

 

Logically from this argument comes the argument that we should remove thinks like Void because they are UNTRADEABLE. Once again no. The difference between something like Void and these potions is how they are compared to their respective gear. These potions ARE THE BEST. Period. Nothing beats them. Things like void or the barrelchest anchor on the other hand aren't. They may hit the highest or be the best STR weapon at that stage of the game but they are not as good at other things like providing defense or hitting fast. The extreme potions have no downsides compared to super sets.

 

Quest related skills and items. This point is sort of valid but the difference is RS has ALWAYS been like this. If RS had always had it so you had to make your own potions or fletch your own bows this update wouldn't have been a problem. As it is though RS was not like this and suddenly changing it to this is not a realistic thing to do.

[AlexRose]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think they should have been removed from non-safe PvP. The reason? RS sucks at damage mitigation

 

Max hit should NOT be going up.

 

However, removing them for whining isn't acceptable.

 

I completely agree. The update in principle, integrating skills into combat, is not only acceptable but an idea that I believe Jagex should go further with. However, the update yet again reduces the defensive powers of Runescape, and that's a terrible practice that needs to be ceased.

 

No they wouldn't.

 

Supply and demand buddy. It would end up balancing it all out. You might point to other potions and say how come supply and demand doesn't hold true for them and my response would be because they are used to train levels. Since these potions are at the highest levels you wouldn't use them to train so the only ones being produced would be used. If it got to the point where it was unprofitable to make them people would stop, supply would go down and demand would increase and the potion would reach equilibrium again.

 

Here is another argument for why it was smart to take the potions out.

 

99 strength 13,034,431exp

99 attack 13,034,431exp

99 defense 13,034,431exp

1 herblroe 0exp

Total 39,103,293exp

 

Using super set would result in

 

118 Strength

118 Attack

118 Defense

 

96 Strength 9,684,577exp

96 Attack 9,684,577exp

96 Defense 9,684,577exp

90 Herblore 5,346,332exp

Total 34,400,053exp

 

With extreme pots would result in

 

>118 Strength

>118 Attack

>118 Defense

 

If someone can provide me the exact formula that would be nice. My point is people say I worked hard to get such a high level herblroe I should have the advantage. However EXP wise you SHOULDN'T have the advantage because that person you are now stronger than has more total EXP. Why should someone with less EXP be better than someone with more?

 

Now for the argument that we should remove all items from the game obtained by skillers like Dhide and such. No. These items are tradeable and as such available to everybody.

 

Logically from this argument comes the argument that we should remove thinks like Void because they are UNTRADEABLE. Once again no. The difference between something like Void and these potions is how they are compared to their respective gear. These potions ARE THE BEST. Period. Nothing beats them. Things like void or the barrelchest anchor on the other hand aren't. They may hit the highest or be the best STR weapon at that stage of the game but they are not as good at other things like providing defense or hitting fast. The extreme potions have no downsides compared to super sets.

 

Quest related skills and items. This point is sort of valid but the difference is RS has ALWAYS been like this. If RS had always had it so you had to make your own potions or fletch your own bows this update wouldn't have been a problem. As it is though RS was not like this and suddenly changing it to this is not a realistic thing to do.

 

*cracks knuckles*

 

I actually don't know enough about economics to completely refute your Supply and Demand argument, but I'll wing it. Your Supply and Demand argument only would be profitable in a perfectly theoretical world; it is perfectly possible that the equilibrium falls below a profit margin. Their primary ingredients have their own dynamic market, which would be completely unaffected as to whether their extreme counterparts would be profitable or not. The potions would be subject to price manipulation, and would the potions be profitable enough to justify the 96 Herblore required?

 

Implying that Effort is a Function of Total EXP is wrong. To obtain EXP in different skills, you must put variations of effort into each individual skill. Assuming that levels are constant, you must put more effort into gaining Runecrafting exp than you do, say, Cooking. If you can prove that straight 96s and 90 Herblore takes less effort than straight 99s, then your argument holds some validity. But again, Effort is NOT a direct Function of Total EXP.

 

The "downside" of the Extreme set is that it requires 90 Herblore. A Rune 2H provides more strength bonus than an Addy 2H, and yet it has no "downsides", other than needing 10 extra attack levels. Similarly, the Extreme set provides more of a boost then the normal set, and yet needs 90 or so Herblore levels to use.

 

And your last paragraph, well, opposing change because of change is counter-progressive and would severely restrict Jagex's ability to provide us with updates. In other words, that's not an argument, that's an opinion. And it's counter-progressive.

 

To Ray, how is using armor more direct than drinking potions in combat? I don't think that I'm understanding how you're using "direct".

 

And for those wondering, Effort is a function of Time, Skill, and Risk. And Reward should be a function of Effort.

[Zamorakshadow]

The only way tradable potions would be profitable is making the supplies needed to make the pot untradable, making the herblorer have to farm the herbs and get the secondary ingredients himself.

 

I think the herblorers should have the ability to make a slightly weaker version of the pots which is tradable and has untradable ingredients, and a untradable versions that is exacly like it is right now.

For example, if you have 3 levels higher than the level needed to make the potion in the first place ( so tradable overload requires 99), you can use a new untradable herb to make a tradable version of the potion, that will give up to 22-23 levels instead of the 26 the normal potion does ( in case of mage potion, makes 30% stronger instead of 40%).

 

Would give them high profits, and they would still have a small advantage, but not so big pkers will complain. Win-win situation i guess?

[bedman]

No they wouldn't.

 

Supply and demand buddy. It would end up balancing it all out. You might point to other potions and say how come supply and demand doesn't hold true for them and my response would be because they are used to train levels. Since these potions are at the highest levels you wouldn't use them to train so the only ones being produced would be used. If it got to the point where it was unprofitable to make them people would stop, supply would go down and demand would increase and the potion would reach equilibrium again.

 

 

 

Well, buddy, trust me if I tell you the equilibrum will be far below profit marigin. There are plenty of high lvl herblorists willing to make this potions, if it costs less than sara brews, and gives better xp. And the update will cause even more herblorists who will reach the lvl, and will buy the supplies. You really think people wll stop making these extreme pots when it becomes unprofitable? Trust me, it is better xp than sara brews, so the only point where they won't be made anymore, is if they become more expensive than sara brew to make.

 

And your xp thing doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure someone with 92 92 92 stats beat someone with 99 99 1 (def) stats, yet the second one has more xp. Also, xp isn't xp. Ever noticed how you can easily, and cheaply get 200k+ cooking xp an hour, and that you can barely get one 5th of that with runecrafting?

[fat_klutz]

The R2H downside is also that it requires more combat levels. There is no downside to the extreme potions. They have no negatives compared to supers.

 

The exp comparison is fair enough. I looked at the RS wiki and the formula is LVL*.20+7+LVL. Therefor you need lvl 93 to match someone using a super set.

 

So you can have 26,933,219 which is roughly 12 million less EXP and 5 less combat levels. Herblore might take a long time but I bet it is less effort to get that 27m experience than it is to get that 39m experience. Plus that 5 combat levels? You should not have a 50/50 chance of winning against somebody 5 combat levels lower.

 

Why would price of potions ever drop below what it costs to make them? Monsters don't drop them so the only way they can be acquired is if a player makes them. Why would a player make them if they could not make money off of them? Exp? Probably not. Once you can make them there is no reason to really train your herblore higher.

 

Well, buddy, trust me if I tell you the equilibrum will be far below profit marigin. There are plenty of high lvl herblorists willing to make this potions, if it costs less than sara brews, and gives better xp. And the update will cause even more herblorists who will reach the lvl, and will buy the supplies. You really think people wll stop making these extreme pots when it becomes unprofitable? Trust me, it is better xp than sara brews, so the only point where they won't be made anymore, is if they become more expensive than sara brew to make.

 

And your xp thing doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure someone with 92 92 92 stats beat someone with 99 99 1 (def) stats, yet the second one has more xp. Also, xp isn't xp. Ever noticed how you can easily, and cheaply get 200k+ cooking xp an hour, and that you can barely get one 5th of that with runecrafting?

 

I doubt herblore is as slow as RC. Your comparison is bad. Mine wasn't. I compare even stats to even stats. You compare uneven to even. Trust me. These potions would end up being profitable. People are willing to pay 19m for bandos plate even though it has far less defense than other things simply to get that +4 str bonus. If you don't think pkers will pay an arm and a leg for these potions for the chance to hit higher your crazy. Especially the mage potion. Hitting 40% more (or w.e it is) would be a necessity and people would pay.

[bedman]

The R2H downside is also that it requires more combat levels. There is no downside to the extreme potions. They have no negatives compared to supers.

 

The exp comparison is fair enough. I looked at the RS wiki and the formula is LVL*.20+7+LVL. Therefor you need lvl 93 to match someone using a super set.

 

So you can have 26,933,219 which is roughly 12 million less EXP and 5 less combat levels. Herblore might take a long time but I bet it is less effort to get that 27m experience than it is to get that 39m experience. Plus that 5 combat levels? You should not have a 50/50 chance of winning against somebody 5 combat levels lower.

 

Why would price of potions ever drop below what it costs to make them? Monsters don't drop them so the only way they can be acquired is if a player makes them. Why would a player make them if they could not make money off of them? Exp? Probably not. Once you can make them there is no reason to really train your herblore higher.

Come on, be realistic. Before this update, there was no reason to train your herblore at all, yet every single potion made you lose money to make it. Still people made those pots.

[fat_klutz]

Well, buddy, trust me if I tell you the equilibrum will be far below profit marigin. There are plenty of high lvl herblorists willing to make this potions, if it costs less than sara brews, and gives better xp. And the update will cause even more herblorists who will reach the lvl, and will buy the supplies. You really think people wll stop making these extreme pots when it becomes unprofitable? Trust me, it is better xp than sara brews, so the only point where they won't be made anymore, is if they become more expensive than sara brew to make.

 

And your xp thing doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure someone with 92 92 92 stats beat someone with 99 99 1 (def) stats, yet the second one has more xp. Also, xp isn't xp. Ever noticed how you can easily, and cheaply get 200k+ cooking xp an hour, and that you can barely get one 5th of that with runecrafting?

 

I doubt herblore is as slow as RC. Your comparison is bad. Mine wasn't. I compare even stats to even stats. You compare uneven to even. Trust me. These potions would end up being profitable. People are willing to pay 19m for bandos plate even though it has far less defense than other things simply to get that +4 str bonus. If you don't think pkers will pay an arm and a leg for these potions for the chance to hit higher your crazy. Especially the mage potion. Hitting 40% more (or w.e it is) would be a necessity and people would pay.

 

The R2H downside is also that it requires more combat levels. There is no downside to the extreme potions. They have no negatives compared to supers.

 

The exp comparison is fair enough. I looked at the RS wiki and the formula is LVL*.20+7+LVL. Therefor you need lvl 93 to match someone using a super set.

 

So you can have 26,933,219 which is roughly 12 million less EXP and 5 less combat levels. Herblore might take a long time but I bet it is less effort to get that 27m experience than it is to get that 39m experience. Plus that 5 combat levels? You should not have a 50/50 chance of winning against somebody 5 combat levels lower.

 

Why would price of potions ever drop below what it costs to make them? Monsters don't drop them so the only way they can be acquired is if a player makes them. Why would a player make them if they could not make money off of them? Exp? Probably not. Once you can make them there is no reason to really train your herblore higher.

Come on, be realistic. Before this update, there was no reason to train your herblore at all, yet every single potion made you lose money to make it. Still people made those pots.

 

The only people who bothered training it were ones with a lot of cash to waste and who already had high levels in every other skill. That is why there is no profit from potions because the only people wiling to make them don't care what they have to pay to get fast exp. And 18k people have 80 herblore. That is not a lot.

 

And I assume because you didn't comment on it you think it is ok for someone 5 combat levels lower than you to have just as good a chance to win?

[TTanT]

Well, buddy, trust me if I tell you the equilibrum will be far below profit marigin. There are plenty of high lvl herblorists willing to make this potions, if it costs less than sara brews, and gives better xp. And the update will cause even more herblorists who will reach the lvl, and will buy the supplies. You really think people wll stop making these extreme pots when it becomes unprofitable? Trust me, it is better xp than sara brews, so the only point where they won't be made anymore, is if they become more expensive than sara brew to make.

 

And your xp thing doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure someone with 92 92 92 stats beat someone with 99 99 1 (def) stats, yet the second one has more xp. Also, xp isn't xp. Ever noticed how you can easily, and cheaply get 200k+ cooking xp an hour, and that you can barely get one 5th of that with runecrafting?

 

I doubt herblore is as slow as RC. Your comparison is bad. Mine wasn't. I compare even stats to even stats. You compare uneven to even. Trust me. These potions would end up being profitable. People are willing to pay 19m for bandos plate even though it has far less defense than other things simply to get that +4 str bonus. If you don't think pkers will pay an arm and a leg for these potions for the chance to hit higher your crazy. Especially the mage potion. Hitting 40% more (or w.e it is) would be a necessity and people would pay.

 

The R2H downside is also that it requires more combat levels. There is no downside to the extreme potions. They have no negatives compared to supers.

 

The exp comparison is fair enough. I looked at the RS wiki and the formula is LVL*.20+7+LVL. Therefor you need lvl 93 to match someone using a super set.

 

So you can have 26,933,219 which is roughly 12 million less EXP and 5 less combat levels. Herblore might take a long time but I bet it is less effort to get that 27m experience than it is to get that 39m experience. Plus that 5 combat levels? You should not have a 50/50 chance of winning against somebody 5 combat levels lower.

 

Why would price of potions ever drop below what it costs to make them? Monsters don't drop them so the only way they can be acquired is if a player makes them. Why would a player make them if they could not make money off of them? Exp? Probably not. Once you can make them there is no reason to really train your herblore higher.

Come on, be realistic. Before this update, there was no reason to train your herblore at all, yet every single potion made you lose money to make it. Still people made those pots.

 

The only people who bothered training it were ones with a lot of cash to waste and who already had high levels in every other skill. That is why there is no profit from potions because the only people wiling to make them don't care what they have to pay to get fast exp. And 18k people have 80 herblore. That is not a lot.

 

And I assume because you didn't comment on it you think it is ok for someone 5 combat levels lower than you to have just as good a chance to win?

 

 

Super potions were necessityies, yet were they profitable to make? No.

Rune armor is a necessity for every non-member, yet is it profitable to make for smithers? No.

 

The list goes on and on. Production skills are not profitable in Runescape, because Runescape has the freakiest economy ever.

 

 

For your second argument, I'll bring up pineapple pizza. Notice that they are profitable to make at the moment. So, what happened? The prices of their materials are skyrocketing. Plain pizzas have hit their price caps and are unbuyable, and basic pizza ingredients take ages to get.

 

Also, pineapple pizzas are now falling because people are losing hope (plus the new fishing update).

 

If something becomes profitable, there are plenty of people that will go to amazing lengths to get their share. Do you think that this wouldn't happen to herblore?

 

And what do you mean no-one trains herblore? I try to train my herblore whenever I get some extra money, simply to keep the level from lagging behind too much.

 

Sure, only the rich reach high levels, but its not like no-one trains it.

 

 

Edit: And as for the combat level thing. Judging that a level 30 pure could easily eat a level 40 main alive, then yes, I think it has been part of the game for a long time. A level 65 with super pots would defeat a level 68 without them.

 

(This is assuming they are of equal skill levels.)

[bedman]

Well, buddy, trust me if I tell you the equilibrum will be far below profit marigin. There are plenty of high lvl herblorists willing to make this potions, if it costs less than sara brews, and gives better xp. And the update will cause even more herblorists who will reach the lvl, and will buy the supplies. You really think people wll stop making these extreme pots when it becomes unprofitable? Trust me, it is better xp than sara brews, so the only point where they won't be made anymore, is if they become more expensive than sara brew to make.

 

And your xp thing doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure someone with 92 92 92 stats beat someone with 99 99 1 (def) stats, yet the second one has more xp. Also, xp isn't xp. Ever noticed how you can easily, and cheaply get 200k+ cooking xp an hour, and that you can barely get one 5th of that with runecrafting?

 

I doubt herblore is as slow as RC. Your comparison is bad. Mine wasn't. I compare even stats to even stats. You compare uneven to even. Trust me. These potions would end up being profitable. People are willing to pay 19m for bandos plate even though it has far less defense than other things simply to get that +4 str bonus. If you don't think pkers will pay an arm and a leg for these potions for the chance to hit higher your crazy. Especially the mage potion. Hitting 40% more (or w.e it is) would be a necessity and people would pay.

 

The R2H downside is also that it requires more combat levels. There is no downside to the extreme potions. They have no negatives compared to supers.

 

The exp comparison is fair enough. I looked at the RS wiki and the formula is LVL*.20+7+LVL. Therefor you need lvl 93 to match someone using a super set.

 

So you can have 26,933,219 which is roughly 12 million less EXP and 5 less combat levels. Herblore might take a long time but I bet it is less effort to get that 27m experience than it is to get that 39m experience. Plus that 5 combat levels? You should not have a 50/50 chance of winning against somebody 5 combat levels lower.

 

Why would price of potions ever drop below what it costs to make them? Monsters don't drop them so the only way they can be acquired is if a player makes them. Why would a player make them if they could not make money off of them? Exp? Probably not. Once you can make them there is no reason to really train your herblore higher.

Come on, be realistic. Before this update, there was no reason to train your herblore at all, yet every single potion made you lose money to make it. Still people made those pots.

 

The only people who bothered training it were ones with a lot of cash to waste and who already had high levels in every other skill. That is why there is no profit from potions because the only people wiling to make them don't care what they have to pay to get fast exp. And 18k people have 80 herblore. That is not a lot.

 

And I assume because you didn't comment on it you think it is ok for someone 5 combat levels lower than you to have just as good a chance to win?

 

Pkers might be willing to pay an arm and a leg, skillers will jumping on these fast xp pots, letting the pkers just pay a fingernail. Okay, the first days to weeks high lvl herblorists would profit, but I can assure you after a month or two, it is cheaper to buy these pots, than to make them yourself. I don't get why you think it would be different with these pots than the pots we had before? Okay they are high lvled, but they will also make more people train herblore to get that lvl, so in the end, they will end up like super strength pots, or sara brews. Als, those with high lvl herblore are probably very comitted, so they will be happy to produce these new pots en mass to get more herblore xp.

 

About the 5 combat lvls lower issue: Before this update, there have been people 10 to 20 combat lvls below me, having an equal or greater chance to win. (99 def range mage hybrids for instance, with only 52 prayer compared to my 90 prayer). Was that fair?

[Master_Smither]

No they wouldn't.

 

Supply and demand buddy. It would end up balancing it all out. You might point to other potions and say how come supply and demand doesn't hold true for them and my response would be because they are used to train levels. Since these potions are at the highest levels you wouldn't use them to train so the only ones being produced would be used. If it got to the point where it was unprofitable to make them people would stop, supply would go down and demand would increase and the potion would reach equilibrium again.

 

Here is another argument for why it was smart to take the potions out.

 

99 strength 13,034,431exp

99 attack 13,034,431exp

99 defense 13,034,431exp

1 herblroe 0exp

Total 39,103,293exp

 

Using super set would result in

 

118 Strength

118 Attack

118 Defense

 

96 Strength 9,684,577exp

96 Attack 9,684,577exp

96 Defense 9,684,577exp

90 Herblore 5,346,332exp

Total 34,400,053exp

 

With extreme pots would result in

 

>118 Strength

>118 Attack

>118 Defense

 

If someone can provide me the exact formula that would be nice. My point is people say I worked hard to get such a high level herblroe I should have the advantage. However EXP wise you SHOULDN'T have the advantage because that person you are now stronger than has more total EXP. Why should someone with less EXP be better than someone with more?

 

Now for the argument that we should remove all items from the game obtained by skillers like Dhide and such. No. These items are tradeable and as such available to everybody.

 

Logically from this argument comes the argument that we should remove thinks like Void because they are UNTRADEABLE. Once again no. The difference between something like Void and these potions is how they are compared to their respective gear. These potions ARE THE BEST. Period. Nothing beats them. Things like void or the barrelchest anchor on the other hand aren't. They may hit the highest or be the best STR weapon at that stage of the game but they are not as good at other things like providing defense or hitting fast. The extreme potions have no downsides compared to super sets.

 

Quest related skills and items. This point is sort of valid but the difference is RS has ALWAYS been like this. If RS had always had it so you had to make your own potions or fletch your own bows this update wouldn't have been a problem. As it is though RS was not like this and suddenly changing it to this is not a realistic thing to do.

 

Your forgetting one key thing there. Runescape is based upon luck. Sure skills increase the chances to get lucky, but they never let you always win.

 

For example I lost to a level 118 yesterday in PvP. It was a friendly DM and we had the exact same gear on with the exact same inventories. I should have won because I had better stats than him by far. Was I supposed to win? Yes. Did I? No, as a matter of fact I lost by over 5 food just because his dragon bolts specialed more times than mine did. So you can't say that just because the guy has more total XP he deserves to win everytime. The higher the skills the better you are supposed to be and it was that way for a day. People who actually trained a skill got an advantage over other people who didn't. The whole principle of this game is to give the upper hand to people who have the higher skills. If we want to look at all the untradable advantages that PvPers get from skills and remove them on the premise that it's not combat related we don't have to train it then there wouldn't be much left.

 

Agility:

 

Faster run recharge and it goes down slower. Yup we gotta take that off someone with 99 agility can outrun me in a chase through the wild.

GE shortcut tunnel. Damn straight we have to remove this because I don't have the agility level to use the shortcut and the people who do have an unfair advantage because they don't have to hop to use the GE.

 

Firemaking:

 

Hand cannoners have a very good advantage if they have 99 firemaking vs someone with lower. It's a skill and not involved in combat so lets' take out hand cannons from PvP.

 

Woodcutting:

 

Omg I can't cut cursed magic trees because my wc is too low and someone else can with their brawlers. That's unfair to me let's take that out!

 

The argument that it's unfair because I didn't train it is just plain stupid. Get off your butt and train it if you want the advantage and it's no one elses fault besides yours if you don't. People spend over 100M gp on 99 herblore they should atleast be rewarded for it. It's like buying an AGS and having it have no specials in PVP, how stupid would that be?

 

Jagex: Give a yard and they'll take a mile. Cut this giving into whiners thing off at the roots and you'll be fine if not your digging your own grave.

[3hitm4g3u]

No they wouldn't.

 

Supply and demand buddy. It would end up balancing it all out. You might point to other potions and say how come supply and demand doesn't hold true for them and my response would be because they are used to train levels. Since these potions are at the highest levels you wouldn't use them to train so the only ones being produced would be used. If it got to the point where it was unprofitable to make them people would stop, supply would go down and demand would increase and the potion would reach equilibrium again.

 

Here is another argument for why it was smart to take the potions out.

 

99 strength 13,034,431exp

99 attack 13,034,431exp

99 defense 13,034,431exp

1 herblroe 0exp

Total 39,103,293exp

 

Using super set would result in

 

118 Strength

118 Attack

118 Defense

 

96 Strength 9,684,577exp

96 Attack 9,684,577exp

96 Defense 9,684,577exp

90 Herblore 5,346,332exp

Total 34,400,053exp

 

With extreme pots would result in

 

>118 Strength

>118 Attack

>118 Defense

 

If someone can provide me the exact formula that would be nice. My point is people say I worked hard to get such a high level herblroe I should have the advantage. However EXP wise you SHOULDN'T have the advantage because that person you are now stronger than has more total EXP. Why should someone with less EXP be better than someone with more?

 

Now for the argument that we should remove all items from the game obtained by skillers like Dhide and such. No. These items are tradeable and as such available to everybody.

 

Logically from this argument comes the argument that we should remove thinks like Void because they are UNTRADEABLE. Once again no. The difference between something like Void and these potions is how they are compared to their respective gear. These potions ARE THE BEST. Period. Nothing beats them. Things like void or the barrelchest anchor on the other hand aren't. They may hit the highest or be the best STR weapon at that stage of the game but they are not as good at other things like providing defense or hitting fast. The extreme potions have no downsides compared to super sets.

 

Quest related skills and items. This point is sort of valid but the difference is RS has ALWAYS been like this. If RS had always had it so you had to make your own potions or fletch your own bows this update wouldn't have been a problem. As it is though RS was not like this and suddenly changing it to this is not a realistic thing to do.

 

You forget the extra bonus from prayer the 99/99/99 guy would get.

[gorgoroth]

:wall: UUUGGGHHH This was one of the ONLY things that would cut down the ammount of 76k'ers around. There is no way a 76k'er with no armour would be able to withstand the 90's of an AGS and the 100's of a Dark Bow....

 

Nice one Jagex...

Nope, I bet it would INCREASE 76king. With the ability to get 1-hit, fewer players would risk equipment in "legitimate" pking. Anyone with under 90 herblore (hell, even some with 90+) would hang up their rune armor and just 76k or cease pvping entirely.

Yeah i guess this makes it a bad thing. 76k'er with 90+ Herblore runs around and Rushes people in welfare Armour + Claws/AGS. God Weapons/Arounr gets lost in the process. This means that God Weapons/Armour will rise even more? Or what?

[Bladewing]

:wall: UUUGGGHHH This was one of the ONLY things that would cut down the ammount of 76k'ers around. There is no way a 76k'er with no armour would be able to withstand the 90's of an AGS and the 100's of a Dark Bow....

 

Nice one Jagex...

Nope, I bet it would INCREASE 76king. With the ability to get 1-hit, fewer players would risk equipment in "legitimate" pking. Anyone with under 90 herblore (hell, even some with 90+) would hang up their rune armor and just 76k or cease pvping entirely.

Yeah i guess this makes it a bad thing. 76k'er with 90+ Herblore runs around and Rushes people in welfare Armour + Claws/AGS. God Weapons/Arounr gets lost in the process. This means that God Weapons/Armour will rise even more? Or what?

Nothing really, since they've been removed from PvP.

[gorgoroth]

:wall: UUUGGGHHH This was one of the ONLY things that would cut down the ammount of 76k'ers around. There is no way a 76k'er with no armour would be able to withstand the 90's of an AGS and the 100's of a Dark Bow....

 

Nice one Jagex...

Nope, I bet it would INCREASE 76king. With the ability to get 1-hit, fewer players would risk equipment in "legitimate" pking. Anyone with under 90 herblore (hell, even some with 90+) would hang up their rune armor and just 76k or cease pvping entirely.

Yeah i guess this makes it a bad thing. 76k'er with 90+ Herblore runs around and Rushes people in welfare Armour + Claws/AGS. God Weapons/Arounr gets lost in the process. This means that God Weapons/Armour will rise even more? Or what?

Nothing really, since they've been removed from PvP.

Yeah i mean if they werent removed what would have been the outcome to the ecomomy?

[gorgoroth]

:wall: UUUGGGHHH This was one of the ONLY things that would cut down the ammount of 76k'ers around. There is no way a 76k'er with no armour would be able to withstand the 90's of an AGS and the 100's of a Dark Bow....

 

Nice one Jagex...

Nope, I bet it would INCREASE 76king. With the ability to get 1-hit, fewer players would risk equipment in "legitimate" pking. Anyone with under 90 herblore (hell, even some with 90+) would hang up their rune armor and just 76k or cease pvping entirely.

Yeah i guess this makes it a bad thing. 76k'er with 90+ Herblore runs around and Rushes people in welfare Armour + Claws/AGS. God Weapons/Arounr gets lost in the process. This means that God Weapons/Armour will rise even more? Or what?

Nothing really, since they've been removed from PvP.

Yeah i mean if they werent removed what would have been the outcome to the ecomomy?

[fat_klutz]

Super potions were necessityies, yet were they profitable to make? No.

Rune armor is a necessity for every non-member, yet is it profitable to make for smithers? No.

Rune armor is dropped by monsters and in PVP. Furthermore people have been smithing rune since the begining of RS. As higher lvl things came out in members like dragon and barrows all that rune got dumped into F2P.

 

The list goes on and on. Production skills are not profitable in Runescape, because Runescape has the freakiest economy ever.

 

Rune crafting is profitable. Things like smithing and crafting aren't profitable because they fail to create high level items. Smithing was INCREDIBLY profitable back in RSC. R2H were 1m because they were the best. Crafting would be profitable if black dhide was the best but quite simply it isn't. Herblore WAS profitable when super sets were made before the change to the wilderness. With the removal of the wilderness an influx of potions that had no use entered the economy and crashed the price.

 

For your second argument, I'll bring up pineapple pizza. Notice that they are profitable to make at the moment. So, what happened? The prices of their materials are skyrocketing. Plain pizzas have hit their price caps and are unbuyable, and basic pizza ingredients take ages to get.

 

Also, pineapple pizzas are now falling because people are losing hope (plus the new fishing update).

 

If something becomes profitable, there are plenty of people that will go to amazing lengths to get their share. Do you think that this wouldn't happen to herblore?

 

It would. It is price equilibrium. If demand is high than prices go up. People see that there is money to be made. People get into the market. Supply goes up, demand goes down. Price drops. People leave the market. The process repeats itself.

 

And what do you mean no-one trains herblore? I try to train my herblore whenever I get some extra money, simply to keep the level from lagging behind too much.

 

Sure, only the rich reach high levels, but its not like no-one trains it.

 

 

Edit: And as for the combat level thing. Judging that a level 30 pure could easily eat a level 40 main alive, then yes, I think it has been part of the game for a long time. A level 65 with super pots would defeat a level 68 without them.

 

That lvl 68 would be choosing not to use super pots. It wouldn't be because he couldn't.

 

(This is assuming they are of equal skill levels.)

 

Pkers might be willing to pay an arm and a leg, skillers will jumping on these fast xp pots, letting the pkers just pay a fingernail. Okay, the first days to weeks high lvl herblorists would profit, but I can assure you after a month or two, it is cheaper to buy these pots, than to make them yourself. I don't get why you think it would be different with these pots than the pots we had before? Okay they are high lvled, but they will also make more people train herblore to get that lvl, so in the end, they will end up like super strength pots, or sara brews. Als, those with high lvl herblore are probably very comitted, so they will be happy to produce these new pots en mass to get more herblore xp.

 

No they wouldn't. Super sets were profitable. The removal of PVP meant that to many were coming into the economy and they crashed rendering them useless. Monsters also drop super pots. As long as Jagex doesn't decide to remove the wildy and PVP again as these potions are produced they will be consumed.

 

If you understand economics you will understand more people will not train herblore. Lets pretend 100 people can now make these potions are a 50gp profit. If 25 more people get the levels to make the potion supply will increase and profit will drop to 35gp. Eventually profit will hit 0, people will stop making pots and the market will stabilize. And the fact is the profit will probably not ever hit 0 because of the time investment required to get the herblore levels. In the end the people consuming these potions will be 10x as numerous as those producing.

 

About the 5 combat lvls lower issue: Before this update, there have been people 10 to 20 combat lvls below me, having an equal or greater chance to win. (99 def range mage hybrids for instance, with only 52 prayer compared to my 90 prayer). Was that fair?

 

I'm not going to address the problems with Jagex's combat system. You should stop making fallacious arguments though by comparing different styles of combat. I realize luck plays a big roll in whether or not you win or lose in PVP but stats do matter. Someone 5 lvls lower than you should not have equal stats and therefor (theoretically) an equal chance of winning.

 

Your forgetting one key thing there. Runescape is based upon luck. Sure skills increase the chances to get lucky, but they never let you always win.

 

NOWAI!! That is a problem with the RS combat system.

 

For example I lost to a level 118 yesterday in PvP. It was a friendly DM and we had the exact same gear on with the exact same inventories. I should have won because I had better stats than him by far. Was I supposed to win? Yes. Did I? No, as a matter of fact I lost by over 5 food just because his dragon bolts specialed more times than mine did. So you can't say that just because the guy has more total XP he deserves to win everytime. The higher the skills the better you are supposed to be and it was that way for a day. People who actually trained a skill got an advantage over other people who didn't. The whole principle of this game is to give the upper hand to people who have the higher skills. If we want to look at all the untradable advantages that PvPers get from skills and remove them on the premise that it's not combat related we don't have to train it then there wouldn't be much left.

 

I never said you were supposed to win 100% of the time because your stats were higher. My point (which was clearly missed) about the experience was that people said that since people with 90 herblore worked for it they should get the advantage. All I was pointing out was that people with 99 attack/strength/defense also worked for it and it makes no sense for someone to have an advantage over someone else because they happen to have trained a specific (noncombat) skill

 

Agility:

 

Faster run recharge and it goes down slower. Yup we gotta take that off someone with 99 agility can outrun me in a chase through the wild.

GE shortcut tunnel. Damn straight we have to remove this because I don't have the agility level to use the shortcut and the people who do have an unfair advantage because they don't have to hop to use the GE.

 

You can use energy restore pots to put yourself on an even basis with someone with higher agility. There is nothing you can do to boost your stats as high as someone else who has access to extreme pots.

 

Firemaking:

 

Hand cannoners have a very good advantage if they have 99 firemaking vs someone with lower. It's a skill and not involved in combat so lets' take out hand cannons from PvP.

 

Hand cannons are not the ultimate PVP weapon. There are substitutes for them. You are not forced to use a hand cannon if you wish to compete against someone with range. There are weapons that are just as good. With the potion update you were FORCED to have 90 herblore if you wished to compete with someone.

 

Woodcutting:

 

Omg I can't cut cursed magic trees because my wc is too low and someone else can with their brawlers. That's unfair to me let's take that out!

 

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

The argument that it's unfair because I didn't train it is just plain stupid. Get off your butt and train it if you want the advantage and it's no one elses fault besides yours if you don't. People spend over 100M gp on 99 herblore they should atleast be rewarded for it. It's like buying an AGS and having it have no specials in PVP, how stupid would that be?

 

You're right that is a stupid argument. It is unfair because it is not reflected in the combat level and gives a direct advantage that cannot be countered or matched in any way. People spend over (I don't actually know how much) 30m to get 99 crafting and they aren't rewarded for it. How come somebody who chose to raise crafting instead of herblore is penalized?

 

And yes, buying an AGS and it having no special in PVP would be stupid. Can you explain how that is relevant at all?

 

Jagex: Give a yard and they'll take a mile. Cut this giving into whiners thing off at the roots and you'll be fine if not your digging your own grave.

 

You forget the extra bonus from prayer the 99/99/99 guy would get.

Good point. I don't feel like redoing the calculations but while that would certainly close the gap I think you would find the person with 90herblore would still have the advantage.

[bedman]

Fat Klutz, I think you have a wrong view of herblore in the past. Before the GE, when pking still existed, making supersets and selling en mass wasnt't profitable either. Super sets were like 6-8k on the forums, and 10k in edge bank, if you sell to the lazy pkers. I think they were around 8k to make, give or take. The only way they were profitable, was by selling in ege bank, which takes a lot of time. It was basicly the selling in edge that made it profitable, not the processing itself.

When the GE came out, the pkers could use the GE, so they stopped paying the extra 2k for the merchers supplying them in their beloved edge bank. For the herblorists who used to buy his herbs en mass on the forum, and sell his pots en mass on the forum, not much has changed. Herblore has been unprofitable if you want to train it efficiently, as long as I can remember. Growing herbs yourself, collecting seconds yourself are all false arguements, because you could sell these, in stead of processing them, and end up making more money. The process of making potions itself is unprofitable.

 

Next, I dont know why you bring up monsters dropping super sets. The influx of super sets of monster drops seems very, very minor to me.

 

Lastly, why, oh why do you think people will stop making potions which give higher experience than sara brew, once these potions become unprofitable to make, while before, they were spending up to 18gp/xp, to receive slower experience, AND without any incentive to get above 81. I'm betting there are tons of high lvl herblorists who would jump on the occasion to get from 88 to 99+ herblore for free, and at a faster rate than the current fastest way (brews). If you don't get this, you seriously underestimate the skillers mentality and skillcape chase RS is currently suffering under.

 

I'm not going further into the unfairness thing, because that seems to be a matter of opinion too, while the above is easily gotten by using your brain.

[bedman]

oeps double post