Why you should never use a "Merchanting Clan"

[bedman]

Well, not all are scams (99%, though), and even if the leaders aren't planning to scam and the clan is public, the public will dump early because they think the leaders will. :mellow: Definitely better to solo-merch.

I kind of agree, I talked to a general recentl and he was telling it was impossible for the ranks to dump early. First of all they had to show their items as a check, secondly, they cannot controll the public, who can dump anytime they want. They do off course buy early, but apperently they all keep the item after the dump (or at least not dump early) and get involved in junk trading to get rid of what they got.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Also, merchants are not primarily responsible for the overall inflation in the game. That's a pervasive myth.

 

They may not be the primary cause, but they are certainly the spark that starts it. Several months ago, people with 100's of Mills would be more then fine with having a large cash pile. But then something like this happens:

Where a clan hit an item that was stable from the time I started playing (Around the start of RS2). Then people see that their GP would be better served if it's put into a seemingly stable item. It is guarenteed to 'never' fall, and there is a chance that a clan hits it. This hoarding of items for a long term is what is causing the inflation. It's fueled by PVP GP rewards and sparked by clans.

 

EDIT: I created this graph in November, since then iron ore has been hovering around 200 GP each. So that 'presumed stable' price could be bumped up to there.

[Ned]

You should post this on RSOF despite the low chance it'll have any effect. :( Thanks for posting this.

[qeltar]

They may not be the primary cause, but they are certainly the spark that starts it. Several months ago, people with 100's of Mills would be more then fine with having a large cash pile. But then something like this happens

That initial spike may have been due to merchants, but the overall price rise is NOT. If it were only merchants doing this, the price would have dropped right back down again. Iron ore is produced in too high a quantity for its price to be held up indefinitely by merchants.

 

The real reasons are the silly PvP reward system, and also the introduction of the Living Rock Caverns.

[ilovecuttingyews]

They may not be the primary cause, but they are certainly the spark that starts it. Several months ago, people with 100's of Mills would be more then fine with having a large cash pile. But then something like this happens

That initial spike may have been due to merchants, but the overall price rise is NOT. If it were only merchants doing this, the price would have dropped right back down again. Iron ore is produced in too high a quantity for its price to be held up indefinitely by merchants.

Which is why I said this:

This hoarding of items for a long term is what is causing the inflation. It's fueled by PVP GP rewards and sparked by clans.

I agree that merchants are not the ones who are responsible for inflation, but they certainly play a key roll in starting the inflation of items (alot of the time). The over abundance of GP in the game acts like a catalyst, where it just speeds up inflation.

[VelvetEmber]

this is a really good post. merchanting clans are mostly scams. ive been solo merching myself and its been going good. i went along with a clan, made friends with the leader, and he actually admitted to me that hes been doing this since the ge came into play. (lost screenie had to make space on my computer). But i agree with alot of people here. Most likely we wish there was a way we could all combat this.

[MerchantInTheDark]

Personally, whenever I see a merch clan spammer I spend a few minutes yelling about how merch clans are scams and they usually shut up pretty fast. Dosn't it makes a difference but it makes me feel better.

 

I think the best thing to do is teach people about how to make money with legit merchanting, that's why I started Rune-Tips.net and posted a guide here. If they know how easy it is to make money soloing, they'll never go back to a merch clan.

[@Dan3HitU]

Generally that's what they do, however mine (not meaning to advertise) is done all together, meaning as soon as there's an item we all buy and we set a dump price, whoevers online at that dump-price GE update will obviously sell first, weather it's the owner of the clan or just a new member of it.

[qeltar]

Generally that's what they do, however mine (not meaning to advertise)

Oh of course.. nobody would ever accuse you of self-promotion.

 

is done all together, meaning as soon as there's an item we all buy and we set a dump price, whoevers online at that dump-price GE update will obviously sell first, weather it's the owner of the clan or just a new member of it.

 

Well, that's entirely different then! Folks, this clan is obviously trustworthy because the leader says that everyone works together. (You know, unlike all the other clans where the leader tells you up front that he's going to rip you off?)

 

Look, see, he said it right there! Join now, beat the rush... :rolleyes:

[hawkeye770]

^

 

I sense de sarcasm

[Carl]

Right, while I understand many of these clans are simply schemes setup to scam people - that isn't always true with every clan. Personally, I don't want to defend them, but given my previous history I can say that what you're saying isn't entirely true. For many of these manipulation clans to work some of the leaders will rather go by trust rather than power. That means what item they target to buyout isn't always necessarily chosen by the leaders, but often by the members. And everyone profits together, and if anyone takes a loss it's the leader for helping the members to succeed. The clan chats which generally publicly advertise at the Grand Exchange you can expect to be setup like you have mentioned, but as I have said - not all are.

 

If there wasn't so many gullible people around they would cease to exist.

[Robert_R]

Well, not all are scams (99%, though), and even if the leaders aren't planning to scam and the clan is public, the public will dump early because they think the leaders will. :mellow: Definitely better to solo-merch.

I kind of agree, I talked to a general recentl and he was telling it was impossible for the ranks to dump early. First of all they had to show their items as a check, secondly, they cannot controll the public, who can dump anytime they want. They do off course buy early, but apperently they all keep the item after the dump (or at least not dump early) and get involved in junk trading to get rid of what they got.

I believe 1% of what he said and that's the part that he says they buy early. I do not believe any of the nonsense he said about keeping after the dump and getting rid of junk.

 

Generally that's what they do, however mine (not meaning to advertise)

Oh of course.. nobody would ever accuse you of self-promotion.

 

is done all together, meaning as soon as there's an item we all buy and we set a dump price, whoevers online at that dump-price GE update will obviously sell first, weather it's the owner of the clan or just a new member of it.

 

Well, that's entirely different then! Folks, this clan is obviously trustworthy because the leader says that everyone works together. (You know, unlike all the other clans where the leader tells you up front that he's going to rip you off?)

 

Look, see, he said it right there! Join now, beat the rush... :rolleyes:

Just gotta say this :thumbup:

 

 

 

Am I the only one that thinks if jagex just bans the owners of the largest merch clans very very very few people would care or even question why it happened? Maybe not even a perm ban maybe only like a month or two to kill or hurt the cc badly.

 

 

EDIT: I know someone is eventually gonna respond saying something like "how would you feel if this happened to you" well I don't see how this would happen to me as I don't run a huge manipulation clan with no concern about any other players.

[yuriqiu]

RS's version of the "ENRON and Madoffs". Unfortunately, under Jagex's current system, it is not illegal.

[Wizz]

http://www.runescoop.com/html/rs_TheRuneScoopSoapboxIssue1.htm

A good article on Merchanting which explains it's evil pyramid scheme.

[MerchantInTheDark]

Merch clans are part of the reason we have such crazy inflation, though not all of it. The whole economy is honestly screwed up because of the lack of Jagex control. Personally, I would argue that the main merch clans should be banned.

 

Well Jagex ever take action against the clans? Quite possibly. They did take action against RWT, which was a similar issue, did they not?

[strilmus]

I still don't see why this doesn't count as scamming. Person tells you lie. You buy into it. Person gets away with your stuff and you are left with nothing. SCAAAAAAAAAAAAM. Pretty sure we had a rule for it.

 

Just because it's not selling one thing in place of another or tricking people into the wilderness or getting them to say their password out loud in chat doesn't mean that it's any less of a lie, and if they think it's a grey area, then these con artists who call themselves "merchants" have just managed to make Jagex swallow the biggest lie of them all.

 

If they really want to take action, they can just make the rule right now, and then wait a week and see who's left. If you are the governing body who makes the rules, if you need a rule to allow yourself to act then MAKE THE STUPID RULE ALREADY. Of course you can't retroactively ban people for past transgressions not covered earlier but if they keep going after a week then feel free to axe them without any guilt. Don't just frown and wag your finger at them! That won't make them stop at all!

 

Eliminating these "merchanting" clans will not solve everything though....

[NukeMarine]

There's been no need for "merchants" since the Grand Exchange. Before, yes, you needed a guy willing to take the time to gather small amounts of products from many people to sell in large amounts to a few persons. With the Grand Exchange, there's literally no reason for such merchants anymore. Now, it's just not merchanting, it's playing the market which isn't a bad thing. Problem is, people are using the Grand Exchange to manipulate the market.

 

Thing is, when Jagex takes steps to slow down market manipulation, people moan. Think about it: In one day, is there a reason to have to buy more than 5000 of any one conusmable type item (exceptions for things such as shards and runes)? Is there any reason to buy more than 10 of non-consumable type items?

 

Want to stop rampant manipulation using the GE? Put in stronger daily limits for buying only (selling no problem). With stronger daily limits, it brings back those that really want to merchant in that they can individually cordinate with users to buy their daily quotas

 

Ex 1: User B wants 50,000 iron ore now, but the daily limit is 5000. User A, being a good merchant, asks 10 players to buy 5000 ore each from the GE and sell to him (maybe a slight mark-up). User A then sells all 50,000 ore to User B (with a better mark-up via junk).

 

Ex 2: User B wants 100 sets of rune armor now (maybe some clan event), but the daily limit is 10 for non consumables. User A gathers the 100 from various users, and sells all to User B with a nice mark-up via junk. Problem solved.

 

So, yes, people might complain about stricter daily limits on the GE. However, it opens up the opportunity for real merchants to make a come back. Plus, it removes the ability to manipulate the market by abusing the GE.

 

Question would, what are reasonable (but stricter) daily limits that won't bother 90% of the players game style?

[Obtaurian]

So, yes, people might complain about stricter daily limits on the GE. However, it opens up the opportunity for real merchants to make a come back. Plus, it removes the ability to manipulate the market by abusing the GE.

 

Question would, what are reasonable (but stricter) daily limits that won't bother 90% of the players game style?

 

I both agree with and like this idea.

[Vio]

But then again, that's what RuneScape is full of nowadays.

 

It's incredibly easy to make money nowadays. Even if you don't merch you can make a couple mil in a month off dragon bones, or do the 76k trick, or take a pair of dragon claws into a +1 world. Inflation, game faults... I miss the days when you had to work for money :P

[qeltar]

Want to stop rampant manipulation using the GE? Put in stronger daily limits for buying only (selling no problem). With stronger daily limits, it brings back those that really want to merchant in that they can individually cordinate with users to buy their daily quotas

 

I don't think that would solve the problem at all. It would just mean longer periods of time where real players can't buy or sell the items they need. The limits you are proposing are unfair and will just gum up the works even more.

 

Amusingly, it is the GE price limits themselves that are largely responsible for this situation. Jagex put price controls in to produce "stability" and prevent market manipulation, but it has had the opposite effect. Market manipulation requires low trading volume, easy information about price movements, and the ability to communicate buy and sell decisions. The current GE system makes it easy for players to choose items to manipulate because they know exactly what the price will do and when it will do it, and because the bogus pricing on thousands of items knocks trade quantities down to where a single clan can dominate the entire market.

 

There are both systemic and reactive steps that Jagex could take to deal with this situation, but more controls is not the answer.

 

Merch clans are part of the reason we have such crazy inflation, though not all of it.

They are responsible for a tiny fraction of it, at best. They are just a convenient scapegoat.

 

The whole economy is honestly screwed up because of the lack of Jagex control.

No, the economy is screwed up because of excessive Jagex control, combined with inadequate oversight.

 

Well Jagex ever take action against the clans? Quite possibly. They did take action against RWT, which was a similar issue, did they not?

Not really. RWT was directly hurting their bottom line and threatening their ability to accept credit cards for subscription payments. This is just a gameplay issue.

[NukeMarine]

Want to stop rampant manipulation using the GE? Put in stronger daily limits for buying only (selling no problem). With stronger daily limits, it brings back those that really want to merchant in that they can individually cordinate with users to buy their daily quotas

 

I don't think that would solve the problem at all. It would just mean longer periods of time where real players can't buy or sell the items they need. The limits you are proposing are unfair and will just gum up the works even more.

 

Amusingly, it is the GE price limits themselves that are largely responsible for this situation. Jagex put price controls in to produce "stability" and prevent market manipulation, but it has had the opposite effect. Market manipulation requires low trading volume, easy information about price movements, and the ability to communicate buy and sell decisions. The current GE system makes it easy for players to choose items to manipulate because they know exactly what the price will do and when it will do it, and because the bogus pricing on thousands of items knocks trade quantities down to where a single clan can dominate the entire market.

 

There are both systemic and reactive steps that Jagex could take to deal with this situation, but more controls is not the answer.

 

 

First, what reasonable person is affected by being limited to buying 5000 iron ore a day or 5 dragon claws at the GE (5000 is an arbitrary number so it can be higher or lower)? You say it's unfair, but don't list why it's unfair. You would not be limited from buying from other players, only on the GE.

 

As for price limits, yes, that is still the big problem. They fixed it partially with removing floor limits which helps clear the junk trading problem. However, for some reason Jagex thinks by not having price control it'll open up an exploit for RWT.

 

So how about a mix of the two issues above? Remove price limits, however, the total you can trade per day is limited by how far outside the average price happens to be. Farther away from the average, the less you're able to buy on a given day on the exchange. This solves two problems: no more price limits, average price reacts realistically to actual sales. Yet, with limited trades by individuals it'd take an enourmous coordinated effort to massively effect the market. The average price will still limit Player to Player trades.

 

In addition, Jagex could really help by allowing decimal bids (ex: Willows for 14.65 gp each) to help the problem of price limits on lower priced items.

[Assume Nothing]

Yay another one of those beaten dead horse topic threads the same topic, talking about the same old crap. It seems mostly common sense, but some people are gullible I guess. It all boils down to inability to communicate and understand how manipulation works. There is one way for manipulation to exist but doesn't 'rip a giant hole in the average joe's bank'. How? It's to manipulate jewellery because of the rogue who buys it for GE Min.

 

It's hard to forget the fact that running these clanchats are so profitable. A 1b investment will probably make 700m easily, which is alot when considering high numbers. These numbers are a guess, so don't flame me if they are not correct.

[Lep]

I love how you're all on the manipulation leaders side. :rolleyes: They don't need to "say it" or "prove it". It's JaGeXs game, they can ban whoever the hell they want. It's clearly obvious that they are price manipulating. But WHY JaGeX does nothing, is beyond me. They clearly don't realise that this causes players to quit that lose their money, therefore losing business. They're basically being robbed in blindsite from their own players. I mean, if they actually do follow their rules to the exact word.... modify the price manipulation rule?

[Saru Inc]

Duh?

 

 

 

 

Preach, sista.

[qeltar]

I love how you're all on the manipulation leaders side. :rolleyes:

 

Huh? What thread are you reading, pal?