Cheating... Or is it...?

[stonewall337]

Hot keys are legal so these must be legal

 

E: lol, this is the exact same thing as what zarfot uses (and it is legal), except with a mouse. Totally legal

So I can write a quick script that will click 28 positions in the inventory for me and assign it to the F1 key? Its legal because im pressing F1 right? While im at it, I might aswell make a script that pressed deposit all and withdraw 28 herbs for the F2 key, thats legal too right because im pressing F2?

 

Exactly. Mouse keys which is think zarfot uses need you to press them for every mouse click you wish to make, meaning you are manually clicking. What is done in the video is not manual clicking, the clicking is done automatically which is against the rules. It took us ages to get clear rules on mouse keys, so it will take us a while to get clear rules for this, but It is obviously cheating. Those that cannot see that just want to use it for their own gain, or something similar.

 

Think logically sir. If it needs time to get clear on this, then it isn't obviously cheating. The only way to make such a preposterous statement with any degree of authenticity would be to post the rule stating that this is against the rules. Otherwise, it isn't obvious. Heck, if it were obvious, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It might be debatable, or it might seem apparent, but it isn't obvious.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Hot keys are legal so these must be legal

E: lol, this is the exact same thing as what zarfot uses (and it is legal), except with a mouse. Totally legal

So I can write a quick script that will click 28 positions in the inventory for me and assign it to the F1 key? Its legal because im pressing F1 right? While im at it, I might aswell make a script that pressed deposit all and withdraw 28 herbs for the F2 key, thats legal too right because im pressing F2?

This. So while using hot keys is legal, this mouse assigns a macro to the mousekey. And that's the part that's agaisnt the rules. If not, then I could claim that this here macro isn't agaisnt the rules because I have to press play to start it. It doesn't work like that. Any click (or type) your computer sends to the server MUST be controlled and sent by you, not a macro program, and not your fancy pants mouse.

 

Heck, if it were obvious, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It might be debatable, or it might seem apparent, but it isn't obvious.

It is obvious to the people who know the rules and are willing to take a second, step back, and think about it. You are using a third party PROGRAM to click for you. That is almost the definition of macroing....

[stonewall337]

Can someone post a link to where they found it for $40? I found it for $60 at lowest. There are things claiming its $40, but its called the G500, It's not the same thing.

 

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1C1_____enUS324US324&sourceid=chrome&q=logitech+g5+gaming+mouse&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=6333690042930476157&ei=BzeYS_asKI3QlAe23qSYDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers

 

I personally wouldn't risk using it until this is clarified, but I don't think its cheating.

[Danqazmlp]

Hot keys are legal so these must be legal

 

E: lol, this is the exact same thing as what zarfot uses (and it is legal), except with a mouse. Totally legal

So I can write a quick script that will click 28 positions in the inventory for me and assign it to the F1 key? Its legal because im pressing F1 right? While im at it, I might aswell make a script that pressed deposit all and withdraw 28 herbs for the F2 key, thats legal too right because im pressing F2?

 

Exactly. Mouse keys which is think zarfot uses need you to press them for every mouse click you wish to make, meaning you are manually clicking. What is done in the video is not manual clicking, the clicking is done automatically which is against the rules. It took us ages to get clear rules on mouse keys, so it will take us a while to get clear rules for this, but It is obviously cheating. Those that cannot see that just want to use it for their own gain, or something similar.

 

Think logically sir. If it needs time to get clear on this, then it isn't obviously cheating. The only way to make such a preposterous statement with any degree of authenticity would be to post the rule stating that this is against the rules. Otherwise, it isn't obvious. Heck, if it were obvious, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It might be debatable, or it might seem apparent, but it isn't obvious.

 

It is obvious though. The reason it would take a long time to get a clear statement from Jagex is because first telling them about it would be difficult, then having them understand what is going on. If you can talk directly to a Jmod about it to ask then go ahead, but it is usually a very long process getting hold of one.

 

I don't get how you cannot see it as cheating. He is clicking much faster than is humanly possible and thus not doing the clicking himself which is against the rules.

[Ollyc3]

Its been confirmed as not cheating by J-mods, some even own the mouse. Will edit wit proof from hi lev forum in a sec

 

 

E ~ Nvm think they're investigating the video now, Mat added the Herb part is most likely macro'ing, didnt say much about the Fletch part oddly

[3PointMan]

Can someone post a link to where they found it for $40? I found it for $60 at lowest. There are things claiming its $40, but its called the G500, It's not the same thing.

 

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1C1_____enUS324US324&sourceid=chrome&q=logitech+g5+gaming+mouse&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=6333690042930476157&ei=BzeYS_asKI3QlAe23qSYDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers

 

I personally wouldn't risk using it until this is clarified, but I don't think its cheating.

 

Thats what I went to. The bottom two are completely different products.

[Den]

After spending like 4 hours cleaning 10k grimy herbs aswell as almost killing my hand in the process, I would have loved a mouse like that.

I would say it goes under macroing, nobody can click that fast without using a macro.

[stonewall337]

Hot keys are legal so these must be legal

 

E: lol, this is the exact same thing as what zarfot uses (and it is legal), except with a mouse. Totally legal

So I can write a quick script that will click 28 positions in the inventory for me and assign it to the F1 key? Its legal because im pressing F1 right? While im at it, I might aswell make a script that pressed deposit all and withdraw 28 herbs for the F2 key, thats legal too right because im pressing F2?

 

Exactly. Mouse keys which is think zarfot uses need you to press them for every mouse click you wish to make, meaning you are manually clicking. What is done in the video is not manual clicking, the clicking is done automatically which is against the rules. It took us ages to get clear rules on mouse keys, so it will take us a while to get clear rules for this, but It is obviously cheating. Those that cannot see that just want to use it for their own gain, or something similar.

 

Think logically sir. If it needs time to get clear on this, then it isn't obviously cheating. The only way to make such a preposterous statement with any degree of authenticity would be to post the rule stating that this is against the rules. Otherwise, it isn't obvious. Heck, if it were obvious, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It might be debatable, or it might seem apparent, but it isn't obvious.

 

It is obvious though. The reason it would take a long time to get a clear statement from Jagex is because first telling them about it would be difficult, then having them understand what is going on. If you can talk directly to a Jmod about it to ask then go ahead, but it is usually a very long process getting hold of one.

 

I don't get how you cannot see it as cheating. He is clicking much faster than is humanly possible and thus not doing the clicking himself which is against the rules.

 

 

If Olly comes back with proof, I expect an apology. Like I said, the reason we are having this debate is because it isn't blatantly obvious.

[Danqazmlp]

Its been confirmed as not cheating by J-mods, some even own the mouse. Will edit wit proof from hi lev forum in a sec

 

 

E ~ Nvm think they're investigating the video now, Mat added the Herb part is most likely macro'ing, didnt say much about the Fletch part oddly

 

Indeed, it is not the assigning buttons on the mouse to keys, it is having those keys able to make multiple inputs for one click of the button. As he says, one input, one action.

[stonewall337]

Its been confirmed as not cheating by J-mods, some even own the mouse. Will edit wit proof from hi lev forum in a sec

 

 

E ~ Nvm think they're investigating the video now, Mat added the Herb part is most likely macro'ing, didnt say much about the Fletch part oddly

 

Indeed, it is not the assigning buttons on the mouse to keys, it is having those keys able to make multiple inputs for one click of the button. As he says, one input, one action.

 

 

I'm waiting for my apology now. Like I said, its not obvious.

 

http://www.runescape.com/rules/rule_third_party_software.ws

 

Those are the rules. I can find nothing in there also which would forbid this mouse.

 

Now, you still might be banned, who knows. Jagex has temp banned people for using mouse keys in the past, even after they said that they were legal.

[glasscube]

I think its obvious, he just said "One input, one action". He is inputting once, and doing 28 actions.

[Danqazmlp]

As I said, it is obvious. In the video the user is clearly cleaning a whole inventory of herbs with one click of a button (or four, maybe he does one row per button?). That is against the rules. How is it that you do not get that? If he had for instance, assigned each button to do one herb then clicked all the buttons in quick succession, it would be fine, but he is not.

 

EDIT: Stonewall, look specifically at point 3:

 

[pulli23]

I think its obvious, he just said "One input, one action". He is inputting once, and doing 28 actions.

Uhm nope: the mouse is an external device, and hence should be considered as a black-box with only an (unexistant) input & output.. How the mouse works can never be something to take into consideration: if your program depends on that you should slam the responsible programmer on his head since he clearly didn't understand some basics paradigms (which are especially used in the JAVA programming language, JAVA is KNOWN for this paradigm).

 

So given that: the program simply gets multiple mouse-input events, now it's up to the program to handle them correctly....

 

But fact is: the program receives multiple inputs!

[ilovecuttingyews]

Its been confirmed as not cheating by J-mods, some even own the mouse. Will edit wit proof from hi lev forum in a sec

 

 

E ~ Nvm think they're investigating the video now, Mat added the Herb part is most likely macro'ing, didnt say much about the Fletch part oddly

Indeed, it is not the assigning buttons on the mouse to keys, it is having those keys able to make multiple inputs for one click of the button. As he says, one input, one action.

I'm waiting for my apology now. Like I said, its not obvious.

It's obvious. One input, one output. This mouse clearly has multiple outputs for one input. there is no way you can drop a full inventory in .9s like the video claims by any legal means. Dropping 25 items in 1 second would be .02s per click. Sorry, but that's not humanly possible with any sort of accuracy.

So it is obvious where this fits within , sorry, outside of the rules. But Jagex (like always) seems to be lagging behind the players with their rules. jagex tried to make 'blanket rules' that take care of a wide variety of actions but players often see this unspecification as an invitation to do things clearly encased in the 'blanket statement' but since it's not specified they claim ignorance.

[anonymouse_]

It will obviously be against the rules, so you might as well use it while it's still in a 'gray zone' :thumbsup:

[stonewall337]

Danz, your statements show you don't know too much about how computers work, it would seem. What the computer interprets as a single action is on occasion multiple inputs, and vis versa. (C+A+D for example). He is still moving the mouse, etc. Not to mention we also don't have proof that I can see that this vid isn't doctored in any way. It would be easy to doctor it up to make it appear faster then it actually is.

[pulli23]

@ILoveyews:

read my post: in programming paradigm used for JAVA language (and most OO languages for that matter) black-boxes are the driving force. In this case the human player + mouse device are both non-controlled, and hence should be seen as 1 black box.. The program thus should only give input to that black box (screen), and expect some output (mouse clicks). Now how they are given does not matter, and should not matter (otherwise you're defeating the paradigm and you should consider either using a new language or reschooling yourself so you can take advantage of the language and its features completely): it's still multiple input the program receives.

 

It's up to the program itself to disable this (by creating a max number of inputs / second for example.. Or to slow down the actual cleaning of herbs)

[glasscube]

@ILoveyews:

read my post: in programming paradigm used for JAVA language (and most OO languages for that matter) black-boxes are the driving force. In this case the human player + mouse device are both non-controlled, and hence should be seen as 1 black box.. The program thus should only give input to that black box (screen), and expect some output (mouse clicks). Now how they are given does not matter, and should not matter (otherwise you're defeating the paradigm and you should consider either using a new language or reschooling yourself so you can take advantage of the language and its features completely): it's still multiple input the program receives.

 

It's up to the program itself to disable this (by creating a max number of inputs / second for example.. Or to slow down the actual cleaning of herbs)

 

Why would Jagex refer to a paradigm that most of its player base wouldn't understand?

[3PointMan]

Wait, does this only work if you have the numeric pad? I have a standard keyboard..

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2009/10/22/wireless120070813newmainfull_1.jpg

 

Like this, but not a mac. I have F1-F12.

 

Can I do this or no?

[Vulxai]

Danz, your statements show you don't know too much about how computers work, it would seem. What the computer interprets as a single action is on occasion multiple inputs, and vis versa. (C+A+D for example). He is still moving the mouse, etc. Not to mention we also don't have proof that I can see that this vid isn't doctored in any way. It would be easy to doctor it up to make it appear faster then it actually is.

 

While you can easily doctor a video, this thread wasn't about the video being real or fake, it was the fact that YOU need to complete the input. It's one input, one action. YOUR one input. If you're only actually doing one input, and the computer's doing more, it's illegal. From what I've been reading, everyone claiming it's not is just trying to make excuses why they can use it. The fact is, YOU'RE completing one input and the game is doing multiple actions, therefore, illegal.

[ilovecuttingyews]

@ILoveyews:

read my post: in programming paradigm used for JAVA language (and most OO languages for that matter) black-boxes are the driving force. In this case the human player + mouse device are both non-controlled, and hence should be seen as 1 black box.. The program thus should only give input to that black box (screen), and expect some output (mouse clicks). Now how they are given does not matter, and should not matter (otherwise you're defeating the paradigm and you should consider either using a new language or reschooling yourself so you can take advantage of the language and its features completely): it's still multiple input the program receives.

It's up to the program itself to disable this (by creating a max number of inputs / second for example.. Or to slow down the actual cleaning of herbs)

Why would Jagex refer to a paradigm that most of its player base wouldn't understand?

Exactly, I have no idea what Pulli said. But what I take From the J Mod's post is that because it takes one click to clean a herb, a person much make one click to clean every herb. I don't care about your black boxes and paradigms. All I see is using a program to convert one input to 28 outputs.

[Soma2035]

Effective date: 12th May 2009

 

You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games. This includes automation tools, macros, bots, or auto-typers. You may not circumvent any of our mechanisms designed to automatically log out inactive users.

 

You also must not use any game-specific, third-party software that encourages breaking of our rules, or bypasses the normal navigation of our website, or automatically requests pages from our website, or which endangers user accounts.

 

I use a Logitech Trackman Marble Mouse.

 

 

A mouse like this allows me to easily move my cursor from one side of the screen to the other. I've used this mouse for years now, and I find that it improves both precision and speed, and eliminates any chance of, say, moving the mouse too far and dropping it off the table. It takes less effort to use (one finger rather than the whole hand).

 

So, when it comes to hardware (and associated, built-in software), can you really call better hardware cheating? And if we're going to declare extremely effective pieces of hardware cheating, where is this line? Technology, and thus hardware, slowly evolves over time - are we going to force players to find themselves another mouse, or deprive them of the right to use a mouse they already own because it's better?

 

If you read the description of the video:

 

Using the Logitech G5 gaming mouse to fletch and id herbs. Also great for F keys as it makes swapping interfaces as fast as a mouse click. All you need is a mouse, mouse keys, and your hand to do this. I am not using any programs or anything outside a mouse keys and my hand. My mouse has buttons that I made mouse keys, and I roll my thumb over the buttons to use them faster then with a keyboard.

 

This isn't automation. This is him using the design of his mouse to play in a more efficient manner, not unlike how I use a more unusual mouse myself to minimize the amount of motion necessary for the same effect. Yes, it is quite an advantage, possibly unfair to those who can't afford the quality hardware necessary, but that's true of a lot of hardware used for Runescape. Many of you have decent resolution and don't even realize the advantage it confers to you - my brother tried to use his Acer computer and the small screen reduced visibility significantly, making it much harder to see and pick up items, or see and attack monsters. Should we prohibit high resolution play because a player with a large screen can target a monster from a longer distance than players with small screens?

 

I think the fact that it's possible to get upwards of 2.8M Fletching experience off Adamant Bolts or 248K Herblore experience off Grimy Dwarfweeds in a single hour is a testament to the fact that Jagex should change the process of cleaning herbs / fletching bolts. It shouldn't be a clicking contest, with players who find inventive ways to click faster being able to do it faster.

 

Exactly, I have no idea what Pulli said. But what I take From the J Mod's post is that because it takes one click to clean a herb, a person much make one click to clean every herb. I don't care about your black boxes and paradigms. All I see is using a program to convert one input to 28 outputs.

 

Either you, or I, grossly misread the description. Mouse keys includes a "click" button. If he's quickly rolling his fingers back and forth, he's not using a program to convert one input into 28 outputs. He's compressing several inputs into one fluid motion, allowing him to make these inputs much, much faster.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I think the fact that it's possible to get upwards of 2.8M Fletching experience off Adamant Bolts or 248K Herblore experience off Grimy Dwarfweeds in a single hour is a testament to the fact that Jagex should change the process of cleaning herbs / fletching bolts. It shouldn't be a clicking contest, with players who find inventive ways to click faster being able to do it faster.

+1

this kind of thing shouldn't be possible in the first place.

[Codguy]

As mentioned by Olly, it seems as if the video is showing unfair gaming by use of a macro. I'm unaware of how to program something that can make an action, such as cleaning an inventory of herbs or dropping an inventory of items in 0.9 seconds. However, the thought behind using a high tech gaming mouse to use programmable buttons and keys is legit, and is used by a lot of high leveled players. I will probably be making the G5 mouse as my next mouse, for more of a gamer's perspective.

 

However, for a video that shows how cleaning herbs with the use of mousekeys/mouse should look like, the first few minutes of this video will demonstrate it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritgerm#p/u/4/gryRTDTfE4o

 

It's clearly showing a different action in this video.

 

Anyways, the mouse should be legal to use, however, I believe in the video posted by the OP, there is some illegal play involved. That is at least my opinion, and I hope that Jagex at least looks into the video a little bit more.

[3PointMan]

DO YOU NEED THE NUMERIC PAD FOR THIS?