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Jagex do not have an issue with users discussing other games. What they have an issue with is us wanting support/approval from them in one way or another while making money from advertising other games.

 

This change will not affect Tip.It's revenue. Our revenue is based on advert impressions, which are adverts appearing on the page, they do not need to be clicked for us to make money from them. All that will happen is that an advert will still be shown, it just won't be a gaming one, our revenue will be unchanged.

 

Also, Jagex have explicitly stated they do not wish to control the content on the forum. They have told us they have no interest in trying to censor us in any way, and so there's not much point discussing "what ifs" when they probably aren't ever going to happen.

 

Safe to say, *if* it did happen, I can't see the administration team compromising the integrity of Tip.It.

 

Also, we don't need to make changes to our advertising partners. That's why we ask you guys to report the ads, we can then just blacklist them from the networks we use. :) That's why we'd really like everyone's help with this, there's a few big offenders and once they're gone, the adverts should be few and far between, but the admins can't check from every country, which is why we've reached out to our user base.

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Tip.it has not only survived without official recognition, but prospered. I don't see why we need to bend down to Jagex in this way, especially as anyone coming to this forum already plays runescape, or has played it, so having RS ads here can't do much.

 

Removing GoogleAds is something that has been considered for a long time, mainly because they have a limit to the number of sites that can be blacklisted and we hit that limit probably over two years ago. By eliminating GoogleAds, that issue is no longer prominent. Personally, I don't feel Tip.it is bending over backwards here to cater to Jagex, but that their request gave the necessary push to look more closely into advertising and maybe even look for some more providers that do not serve up Gold selling and competitor ads. This is mainly what I gather from this. Yes, it raises a few eyebrows to see Jagex doing this, but I'm not concerned personally.

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Also, Jagex have explicitly stated they do not wish to control the content on the forum. They have told us they have no interest in trying to censor us in any way, and so there's not much point discussing "what ifs" when they probably aren't ever going to happen.

 

Safe to say, *if* it did happen, I can't see the administration team compromising the integrity of Tip.It.

 

 

 

I like to play devils advocate and i'm not one to shy away from sensationalism or sharing my feelings.

 

IF they did start to control content - I would be strongly against and VERY vocal it and would resign the moment I lost my creative control on the forums. I've dedicated a large part of my administration tenure that i can talk about on a public level to three things, Clans, Clans and user rights. No one will tell our users what they can and can't talk about.

 

Thats how I roll.

 

We all sort of roll that way in the term of we like control of the site we work hard on - and the fact we are still using OUR advertising networks is a sign of our determination to keep our content the way it is.

 

Removing competitor ads allows us to be mentioned in game and on RSOF - it's not a change in revenue, so I'm not against it. Do I think it's stupid on a personal level for flash game advertisements to be removed? i'll be honest and crass and say "yes" - however it doesnt impact us revenue wise at all, benefits the users by allowing them to mention tip.it in game and on forums so it seems like a win/win to me and a small annoyance to pay to provide that benefit to you guys.

 

~Das

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world."

Abraham Lincoln

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I know how adsense works fairly well as I've used it for at least 6 years, very true that you make money off page impressions, but you make more from clicks, if you only get impressions its not nearly the amount you'd make from clicks.

 

On the note of JaGeX, no matter what you say they are censoring what you do, they are saying, hey look your a fansite for our game, don't show ads for any other games. And that's complete bull, its limiting what your aloud see, and cuts into your revenue, running servers aren't cheep (especially the amount of views Tip.It gets).

 

The way I see it, JaGeX is acting very immature, because you had ads for other games they removed you from their fansite list, you are Tip.it, one of the ONLY other fansites I still like. Now I know you wont stand up to JaGeX on this, heck if I were in your position I'm not sure if I would either, but its wrong that they are able to use their power to filter your content. For rule breaking I agree, it should be removed, but showing other games is NOT a rule.

 

If you want to read Topper's whole post about this its on our blog http://www.runeplanet.com/blog/2010/04/fight-for-your-rights/ you guys can let this go...but the more and more we see JaGeX changing the more we're going to stand up for it. Like Topper said we are not trying to start a flame war...we're trying to keep JaGeX from destroying the relationship (one that was getting a LOT better) with players and fansites.

 

Aaron

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I agree that inappropriate ads (including RS gold sellers etc) should be blacklisted and understand why Google ads has been removed. I will also continue to report any inappropriate ads to the admin team.

 

However, bowing to Jagex and banning adverts for other games, is not in the spirit of free competition. We live in a democracy ( at least a lot of us do) not a dictatorship and the admin team should not accept Jagex's demand to remove advertisments for other games sites. After all if RS is truly the number 1 MMORPG as Jagex advertises then they should not be afraid of a little competition. I, for one will NOT be reporting any adverts I see for competing games, and if that means exclusion from Tip.it then so be it.

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I, for one will NOT be reporting any adverts I see for competing games, and if that means exclusion from Tip.it then so be it.

 

It is certainly NOT a requirement, just if you are interested in helping us out in his endeavor, we'd appreciate it. We'll get the adverts removed sooner or later anyways, but with the help of the userbase it will go much faster. :) No exclusion from Tip.It involved :P

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I can imagine that Jagex will be saying this to ALL Runescape fansites who want to be "in" with Jagex, and it seems nothing short than them trying to stifle users from accessing other games. Jagex should be honoured that fansites like tip.it still exist and are run by players for players. It should NOT be up to them to tell you how to run your own website. (as long as you abide by rwt rules i suppose)

 

If this is the price that it takes to be cosy with Jagex.. Sod it. They're becoming a shady money obsessed bunch of [bleep] atm.

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Tip.it has not only survived without official recognition, but prospered. I don't see why we need to bend down to Jagex in this way, especially as anyone coming to this forum already plays runescape, or has played it, so having RS ads here can't do much.

 

Removing GoogleAds is something that has been considered for a long time, mainly because they have a limit to the number of sites that can be blacklisted and we hit that limit probably over two years ago. By eliminating GoogleAds, that issue is no longer prominent. Personally, I don't feel Tip.it is bending over backwards here to cater to Jagex, but that their request gave the necessary push to look more closely into advertising and maybe even look for some more providers that do not serve up Gold selling and competitor ads. This is mainly what I gather from this. Yes, it raises a few eyebrows to see Jagex doing this, but I'm not concerned personally.

I realize googleads isn't necessarily the best out there, and I realize about the limit. I also realize there will be no negative revenue connotations from this. I guess my objections are more in principle than practical.

 

But as Tripsis said, I am sure that were Jagex to institute censorship demands the admin team would be willing to tell them where to go.

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If Jagex took it a step further than they already have, asking us to change the content of our site/forums, I trust the admins to do what's best for the USERS and not comply. Changing our ads doesn't affect the users of Tip.it and while I think it's absurd for Jagex to make that request, it honestly isn't that big of a deal and doesn't really affect our site/forums. As long as it doesn't make a big difference, it's better to comply and be counted as a "safe" fan site or whatever. But if Jagex make requests that would change the way this site/forum is run or make requests to change our content, then that would affect the users in a negative way. In that case, I'm sure the admins would know that it would be better to continue running a great, free fan site and say "no" to Jagex's demands than to comply and be counted as a "safe" fan site by Jagex's standards.

 

I trust the admins to have enough sense to do what's in the users' and the site's best interests.

 

This sums it up quite nicely for me. :wink:

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But as Tripsis said, I am sure that were Jagex to institute censorship demands the admin team would be willing to tell them where to go.

 

You worked with me, you can confirm i wouldn't stand for BS.

 

I'm a negative nancy and don't see this move as bad, little is required of us now, little affects us due to this and although it's *Really* easy to say it's shady and toss conspiracy theories out there due to the situation, it's really not *That* bad. We will take it as we come and of course always keep our users in mind, they keep us going. always have, always will.

 

As far as other sites I know W13 posted a somewhat similar story on zybez about competitor advertising (Except it was longer and involved other issues and was a fairly hostile post, i digress), so if it happened with us AND zybez, i'll asume it's a requirement for every fansite and from the other admins of other sites I know, i'd assume that with a high degree of confidence.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world."

Abraham Lincoln

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this is why i like tip.it... your not all about the paycheck like zybez is... ive actualy started boycotting zybez every chance i get because a few years ago(yes i still holding them on it even though its been about 3 years) i got a virus from one of their ads... i reported it to w13... good ol' jerk of an admin / owner and his response was equivalent to "to bad so sad i got paid i dont care" he real words were "we need the ads to support the site" but y'know you give your users a virus and they wont come back.

 

then you got the issue of jagex dropping their support... w13 got all mad because he wanted more money... jagex was willing to give ads that support the site plenty... he got a better offer so decided to decline jagex and be greedy... no mroe support for them.

 

BUT tip.it on the other hand isnt all about the paycheck...in fact here you are asking us to get rid of ads that shouldnt be allowed... your want to make sure you are supported with jagex... i tip my hat to you guys for that

 

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I know how adsense works fairly well as I've used it for at least 6 years, very true that you make money off page impressions, but you make more from clicks, if you only get impressions its not nearly the amount you'd make from clicks.

...

 

 

I use Adsense for Content also (non-RS related) and believe you me, you make a lot more money on clicks than impressions.

 

FWIW, you can block the entire Video Games category on this page: https://www.google.com/adsense/site-targeted-ad-review

It'd be hella easier than blocking individual ads.

 

What Jagex needs to do is start their own advertising channel - that way fansite admins don't have to go chasing bad ads. The Big J can filter out undesirable ads from the top and the admins can focus on maintaining a top-notch site.

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I think this is fine, given that we won't be losing any revenue because of banned ads, but if they take this any further I think we have a right not to comply.

~ W ~

 

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But as Tripsis said, I am sure that were Jagex to institute censorship demands the admin team would be willing to tell them where to go.

 

You worked with me, you can confirm i wouldn't stand for BS.

C'mon Das -- this is already BS. You have a company that makes millions a year trying to tell small fansites who are trying to earn enough to cover their costs and/or justify their existence that they need to suppress competitive ads? It would be one thing if Jagex was paying these sites -- exclusivity usually comes at a premium. And does anyone here really think Jagex is being substantially harmed by the odd ad for another game on a fansite?

 

As for independence, an argument could be made that Jagex already influences the content of the site, at least when it comes to anything controversial.

 

The folks who run Tip.it need to make the decision they feel is best for the site, but everything has a cost, and it's not always monetary (though how you make money off AdSense without clicks is a mystery to me as well).

Qeltar, aka Charles Kozierok

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But as Tripsis said, I am sure that were Jagex to institute censorship demands the admin team would be willing to tell them where to go.

 

You worked with me, you can confirm i wouldn't stand for BS.

C'mon Das -- this is already BS.

 

 

I'm not going to argue that I don't find it petty and somewhat stupid - but this is how i rationalize it and to me it makes sense

 

Not all fansites can be said in game, unless i am mistaken zybez is filtered and i know advertising/mentioning websites is frowned down upon greatly and is against the runescape rules depending on how much of a hardass you are when you read them. heh

 

Basically we getting exempt from the rule of mentioning non supported sites to where our players cannot be muted or banned for casually mentioning us in game. Considering years ago players did get mutes and worse for saying tip.it - it's a small price to pay and a fair trade.

 

Would we delete the video games forum or remove the wow thread so we could do prizes or something? No, I cant see any of us going or considering that.

 

Do i really think they are harmed by other ads? not really, and if they feel they are harmed by a flash game ad - that certainly either makes me laugh at business ignorance or wonder if a deeper problem exists with the game that we do not know about.

If you are on the internet long enough you will know about WoW, Starcraft, STO, and other games. It's fairly hard to imagine someone who has never heard of gaming found runescape without ever finding another game.

 

As far as controversy, I still welcome it in the times and if a writer wants to push the envelope - go him. I encourage and love sensationalism writing.

 

 

And lastly, yes this means no Evony ads - while i'm sure some will be disappointed - you can find massive amounts of cleavage elsewhere on the internet. :P

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world."

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Aww. That's a shame, I always like to laugh at Evony ads. :D

 

Anyway, I've been seeing the same Sky TV advert for about 2 days straight now. I hope they start rotating a bit soon :P

 

In short - I think it's a bit BS that they ask us to do this, but it's not a huge deal and I'm not worried about it being a slippery slope because I don't think Jagex would go down that road, and if they did I trust in our administration completely to know what is best for Tip.It and it's users.

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Basically we getting exempt from the rule of mentioning non supported sites to where our players cannot be muted or banned for casually mentioning us in game. Considering years ago players did get mutes and worse for saying tip.it - it's a small price to pay and a fair trade.

I think some things shouldn't have a price.

 

Obviously others feel differently, but the issue here for me is not based on worrying about a slippery slope, but based on principle. What Jagex is doing to fan sites here is wrong, and the company won't change its stance unless the bigger sites take a stand.

 

As far as controversy, I still welcome it in the times and if a writer wants to push the envelope - go him. I encourage and love sensationalism writing.

If you're serious about this, I might just take you up on it. Concern about "approvals" and censorship on controversial topics is one of the reasons I stopped writing for the Times.

Qeltar, aka Charles Kozierok

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I won't lie, I disagree with it. I realise people are saying "Oh it's only adverts", but at the same time it is setting a precedent that Jagex can threaten us with revoking our 'safe site' ability to make us make changes they want.

 

To be honest, a company that makes millions shouldn't be scared of games such as Evony. And when the companies themselves are advertising WoW, it screams hypocrisy (I have witnessed them amongst others). I like our users being able to say tip.it ingame, but when they, in theory, threaten to ban/mute those who say tip.it just because we do not make the changes they want (whilst still being a rule abiding, virus free website), that just becomes petty.

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Seems a worrying move, and a pointless and irritating one on their part.

 

If you're here, then you already know about runescape, and probably Funorb too, and you either like them or you don't.

 

As for adservers, I've always considered google's to be the least hostile, as it doesn't seem to be possible for it to directly serve a "bad ad", unlike many of the other garbage shovellers - I reserve particular venom for tribalfusion and a few others, due to their dismal quality of ads - any ad service that gives me popunders or suspicious download attempts hits my "block with absolute prejudice" list - going in firewall "bad sites" rather than any adblocker.

 

As for the Gold / cheating etc. sites, I'd like to think they are blocked not just because Jagex say they should be, but because we think they are bad.

 

 

I can't see the ad deal working, even if it's pure cpm, they will be expecting a certain ratio of clickthroughs, and much as we like runescape, I'm sure we'd be more likely to click to take a glance at another MMO, or (and maybe this is Jagex's point), a casual game at , say, Miniclip instead of Funorb.

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I'm completely on Tip.it's side here and agree that as long as Jagex's demands aren't over the top we should try to stay on the safe list, but let's travel back to WWII if I may and have a little talk about history. At the beginning of the pre-WWII period Neville Chamberlain was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Chamberlain is best known for his appeasement policy when it came to Hitler. This is a quote from Wikipedia:

In Europe, Germany and Italy were becoming bolder. In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria, again provoking little response from other European powers. Encouraged, Hitler began pressing German claims on the Sudetenland, an area of Czechoslovakia with a predominantly ethnic German population; France and Britain conceded this territory to him, against the wishes of the Czechoslovak government, in exchange for a promise of no further territorial demands. Soon after that, however, Germany and Italy forced Czechoslovakia to cede additional territory to Hungary and Poland. In March 1939, Germany invaded the remainder of Czechoslovakia and subsequently split it into the German Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the pro-German client state, the Slovak Republic.

The idea of appeasement was that Britain and France gave Hitler anything he wanted, within in reason, with the hope that each demand would be his last. After Prime Minister Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement in 1938, conceding the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany, he returned to Britain with news that war had been averted and that the Sudetenland would be Hitler's last request. Obviously Hitler wasn't satisfied with just the Sudetenland, and later took the rest of Czechoslovakia and then Poland before Britain reacted.

 

Now I'm not comparing Jagex to Hitler, or even saying their intentions are bad in their request, but you have to wonder when they will decide they have enough control. At first to get on the safe list you had to remove gold advertisements, which was totally reasonable (they are against the game rules), but now they also want competitor ads removed. The questions here are, is Jagex justified in demanding even more control then they had and whether this will be Jagex's last demand if we continue the historically flawed policy of appeasement.

 

This also goes to show you that even the new and improved and "open" Jagex led by MMG can still be the money hungry tyrant it was in years past.

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As for the Gold / cheating etc. sites, I'd like to think they are blocked not just because Jagex say they should be, but because we think they are bad.

 

We always have removed goldselling ads to the best of our ability, even before this became a requirement to be on the 'safe list.' I'd say you're safe to say that.

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One thing I think we might be overlooking (And I overlooked it myself at the beginning) What is the purpose of the Official Jagex Safe Site List? (OH... BTW, It no longer appears on the forums, and the link to it on 'suggest a site' thread is broken as well)

 

If it was supposed to be a list of websites that Jagex trusted as being Virus/Keylogger free and didn't engage in Account Sharing and RWT... them I'm REALLY wanting to know two things...

 

1) If tip.it was removed from the list... what practice is it exactly that makes Jagex say: That is not a safe site to visit?

 

2) How does Tip.it's Ads for other games make Tip.It a "Not Safe Fansite"

 

that *IS* afterall, the message that Jagex is sending the RS userbase by removing Tip.It from their list... Something about Tip.It is dangerous, and we don't recommend visiting it... If that is the view of Jagex...what is it, and why would Tip.It (Or any other legitimate fansite) tolerate being judged that way by the site they are a "fan" of?

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Whoa whoa wait what Hitler?!

 

If you are ever going to use Hitler as an example for anything you better have a good reason to do so!

 

And if you are not comparing Jagex to Hitler why did you bring him up?

 

Use the "if you give a mouse a cookie" example for non-Hitler related comparisons.

 

Anyway.

 

It's not like Jagex is going to take over Poland if they do this.

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