12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[Zepheras]

Yeah, I was referring to that when I was asking why they were reluctant to do it.

 

I was thinking more about the whole "ranged armor decreases melee attack" and "mages are actually dangerous" parts.

 

Also perhaps the part about all the other metal weapons aside from scimitars actually being useful for once.

 

The upper regions are sort of okay though, since everybody's got really crazy toys at that point, although lately Ranged hasn't had a bone thrown to them outside of minor accessory boosts and from what it looks like, they've given them to magic too, so it might be time for a new bow of some sort.

 

Oh yes, the negative attack bonus with the wrong armour. I still think that Magic is icky to use even in Daemonheim though, the whole autocast and clicking the little icons in the spellbook is messy. Ranged is now the one with problems regarding damage. Melee weapons are tied to the strength bonus, while Magic now has damage bonus attached to higher end staves and wands. Yet ranged still follows strictly the rule where ammo provides the ranged strength bonus. Unless the new bow/crossbow has a ranged strength bonus,or there's a new ammo type, a new bow or crossbow won't be very useful.

 

Which is why some people are questioning the usefulness of the chaotic crossbow. Are we paying 200k tokens just for a few extra ranged attack bonus?

[Peronix]

If I may ask, what specifically are you talking about? I haven't experienced the endgame content on WoW so I wouldn't know about that.

 

Just the basics that most players who play any portion of WoW would even know. The concept of 5 player raiding, the existance of tier armor and weapons the concept of items being soulbound and only being able to destroy them. Those are just to name a few. Also, I know the concept of a multi-layered dungeon is a lot like the pit of trials or whatever it's called in the Zelda series. Randomly generated dungeons, as many have said before, is a concept from Diablo (If I am mistaken, correct me) and the rest of dungeoneering is mixes between pre-existing runescape concepts like the already existant skills and Stealing Creation. I just don't see how a single bit of it is innovative in any way.

 

You're going to have to do better than that. First of all the concept of a 5 player dungeon is completely irrelevant. 5 player is arbitrary, it's not some special concept in of itself.

 

The tier armor and bound items do remind me a bit of WoW. Except that those concepts are used in a completely different way. In WoW I can only assume soulbound items are a concept used to both facilitate free trade of items while also allowing them to be "removed" from the game. In dungeoneering it is simply a concept used to be able to keep items between floors. Also tiers are not limited to armor and weapons, it is used with all resources in the dungeon. It lowers the learning curve somewhat, since it allows me to see which items will be useful and which ones won't. It's not like some lofty goal to aim for like it is in WoW.

 

As for the concept of multi-layered dungeons and randomly generated dungeons, I've seen that concept in a lot of different games. City of Heroes like I mentioned before. And FFX-2 had a 100 floor multi-layered dungeon. I think those two concepts are just way too general to say one game using them copied the other. If the execution of it is similar, maybe, but not simply using the concept.

[AlexRose]

The reason why it's important that it's a skill or a minigame is because we have the two. What's the point of having any distinction if they just want to blur the lines? why go through the hassle of changing the name of minigame to activity, when you 2 months later come out with a skill/activity/minigame/whatever.

 

The reason why it's not a skill is intergration. The skill exists solely unto itself in a little world and has no, and I mean, integration into the Runescape whole. That's what skills are, they're things you can do in the world of Runescape, not just on one stupid island/peninsula.

 

Suppose the various floors of the dungeon were spread out throughout the whole of Runescape, say in packets of 5-6, throughout several dungeons. This would make the skill similiar to Farming, which requires specific spots to farm at, and to a lesser extent Slayer and Agility, where you are required to train at a given spot. What would be the difference then, other than cosmetics and slightly less convience? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet and fair.

[muggiwhplar]

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

 

That Shakespeare quote seemed unnecessary...

[AlexRose]

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

 

That Shakespeare quote seemed unnecessary...

 

It was a rather relevant quote; I thought I'd include it.

[Jabuli]

Gotta love 5:5 large dungeons

 

 

Feels good man

[qeltar]

Suppose the various floors of the dungeon were spread out throughout the whole of Runescape, say in packets of 5-6, throughout several dungeons. This would make the skill similiar to Farming, which requires specific spots to farm at, and to a lesser extent Slayer and Agility, where you are required to train at a given spot. What would be the difference then, other than cosmetics and slightly less convience? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet and fair.

When I farm I get tons of items I can use to train other skills. For many players it is a *primary* source of materials for Herblore. Do I get that here? Nope. Nothing but a trinket or two I can buy once, sometime down the line.

 

I also get food I can use for combat, combat which yields seeds for Farming. Is there any sort of integration like this with Dungeoneering? Nope. And no plans to do it, either.

 

I think one point many are missing in this debate is that one of the reasons some of us have a problem with this being called a skill is that it takes the slot of a *real* skill. It used to be that Jagex put out a new skill every 6 to 12 months. This time they waited 27 months, and the skill they released really isn't. But now they'll say "new skill released in early 2010" and it could be 27 *more* months until we get a real one.

 

Again, I do think this is a nice piece of content. But it's really a minigame wearing skill's clothing. And yes, it does matter.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Suppose the various floors of the dungeon were spread out throughout the whole of Runescape, say in packets of 5-6, throughout several dungeons. This would make the skill similiar to Farming, which requires specific spots to farm at, and to a lesser extent Slayer and Agility, where you are required to train at a given spot. What would be the difference then, other than cosmetics and slightly less convience? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet and fair.

When I farm I get tons of items I can use to train other skills. For many players it is a *primary* source of materials for Herblore. Do I get that here? Nope. Nothing but a trinket or two I can buy once, sometime down the line.

 

I also get food I can use for combat, combat which yields seeds for Farming. Is there any sort of integration like this with Dungeoneering? Nope. And no plans to do it, either.

 

I think one point many are missing in this debate is that one of the reasons some of us have a problem with this being called a skill is that it takes the slot of a *real* skill. It used to be that Jagex put out a new skill every 6 to 12 months. This time they waited 27 months, and the skill they released really isn't. But now they'll say "new skill released in early 2010" and it could be 27 *more* months until we get a real one.

 

Again, I do think this is a nice piece of content. But it's really a minigame wearing skill's clothing. And yes, it does matter.

 

To reply to what people have said is a waste of time when I can just quote Qeltar and leave it at that.

[Zepheras]

Suppose the various floors of the dungeon were spread out throughout the whole of Runescape, say in packets of 5-6, throughout several dungeons. This would make the skill similiar to Farming, which requires specific spots to farm at, and to a lesser extent Slayer and Agility, where you are required to train at a given spot. What would be the difference then, other than cosmetics and slightly less convience? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet and fair.

When I farm I get tons of items I can use to train other skills. For many players it is a *primary* source of materials for Herblore. Do I get that here? Nope. Nothing but a trinket or two I can buy once, sometime down the line.

 

I also get food I can use for combat, combat which yields seeds for Farming. Is there any sort of integration like this with Dungeoneering? Nope. And no plans to do it, either.

 

I think one point many are missing in this debate is that one of the reasons some of us have a problem with this being called a skill is that it takes the slot of a *real* skill. It used to be that Jagex put out a new skill every 6 to 12 months. This time they waited 27 months, and the skill they released really isn't. But now they'll say "new skill released in early 2010" and it could be 27 *more* months until we get a real one.

 

Again, I do think this is a nice piece of content. But it's really a minigame wearing skill's clothing. And yes, it does matter.

 

To reply to what people have said is a waste of time when I can just quote Qeltar and leave it at that.

 

Just treat it as a character development skill that was initially added without any application, like Agility. :thumbup:

 

Of course, we need to rant that it's not a skill until the applications are added. :thumbup: :thumbup:

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Suppose the various floors of the dungeon were spread out throughout the whole of Runescape, say in packets of 5-6, throughout several dungeons. This would make the skill similiar to Farming, which requires specific spots to farm at, and to a lesser extent Slayer and Agility, where you are required to train at a given spot. What would be the difference then, other than cosmetics and slightly less convience? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet and fair.

When I farm I get tons of items I can use to train other skills. For many players it is a *primary* source of materials for Herblore. Do I get that here? Nope. Nothing but a trinket or two I can buy once, sometime down the line.

 

I also get food I can use for combat, combat which yields seeds for Farming. Is there any sort of integration like this with Dungeoneering? Nope. And no plans to do it, either.

 

I think one point many are missing in this debate is that one of the reasons some of us have a problem with this being called a skill is that it takes the slot of a *real* skill. It used to be that Jagex put out a new skill every 6 to 12 months. This time they waited 27 months, and the skill they released really isn't. But now they'll say "new skill released in early 2010" and it could be 27 *more* months until we get a real one.

 

Again, I do think this is a nice piece of content. But it's really a minigame wearing skill's clothing. And yes, it does matter.

 

To reply to what people have said is a waste of time when I can just quote Qeltar and leave it at that.

 

Just treat it as a character development skill that was initially added without any application, like Agility. :thumbup:

 

Of course, we need to rant that it's not a skill until the applications are added. :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

People keep complaining that one of our arguments ins flawed because we have a preconceived notion of what a skill is. You're damn right we do. If you go through the trouble to make skills and minigames seperate, then they should be seperate. If you put them together, what's the point of having them have distinctions between skills and activities. In fact, why go through the hassle of rebranding your minigames as activites when you go and release something that completely blurs the lines between skills and activities?

 

I have a preconceived notion of what fried chicken is too. If some presents me with roasted duck and tries to called it fried chicken I know they're wrong. I don't care if they try to say that it's okay because they're both technically fowl, or the amount of fat in the duck actually fries itself while in the oven, it's not fried chicken.

 

i struggle to see how they can really apply it in another fashion, but maybe they can. I won't held my breath on it though.

[Emmentail]

Agility was released with the Grand Tree Quest and Yanille Agility Dungeon which gave players access to more Chaos Druids.

 

Leveling my dungeoneering to whatever it is atm has enabled me to... Oh do nothing. Actually I could buy a gem/coal bag it seems. Useful...

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Agility was released with the Grand Tree Quest and Yanille Agility Dungeon which gave players access to more Chaos Druids.

 

Leveling my dungeoneering to whatever it is atm has enabled me to... Oh do nothing.

 

It allowed you to train your skill so that you could go deeper in the dungeon, which lets you get better experience so you can level up, which lets you go deeper in the dungeon and get even more better experience so that you can level up and go even deeper in the dungeon, which allows for more bestest experience that levels you up so you can go more more deeper into... Oh no I've gone cross eyed. :blink:

[Emmentail]

Oh no I've gone cross eyed. :blink:

 

Austin Powers ref? :D

 

Haha I love that arguement. "Leveling your dungeoneering minigame/activity allows you access to deeper levels".. And? They don't provide me anything that I can take into RS either. Only things bought with tokens/zeal/stealing creation points/void points/pieces of eight/castle wars (insert generic minigame points based reward system here) tickets do.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Oh no I've gone cross eyed. :blink:

 

Austin Powers ref? :D

 

Haha I love that arguement. "Leveling your dungeoneering minigame/activity allows you access to deeper levels".. And? They don't provide me anything that I can take into RS either. Only things bought with tokens/zeal/stealing creation points/void points/pieces of eight/castle wars (insert generic minigame points based reward system here) tickets do.

 

Yes it was. :)

 

Oh, and that further cements why it'as a minigame, not a skill. As a skill, it produces, consumes, and achieves nothing. Even Construction gives you a cosmetically appealing house directly from what you can do with the skill.

[Dragonlordjl]

I consider this to be neither a minigame nor a skill. It's closest to what console gamers call "DLC" (or downloadable content). DLCs are expansion packs that usually involve a new area separate from the main game that puts your levels/items gained in the main game to the test and allows you to obtain spiffy new items to use in the main game.

[AlexRose]

Suppose the various floors of the dungeon were spread out throughout the whole of Runescape, say in packets of 5-6, throughout several dungeons. This would make the skill similiar to Farming, which requires specific spots to farm at, and to a lesser extent Slayer and Agility, where you are required to train at a given spot. What would be the difference then, other than cosmetics and slightly less convience? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet and fair.

When I farm I get tons of items I can use to train other skills. For many players it is a *primary* source of materials for Herblore. Do I get that here? Nope. Nothing but a trinket or two I can buy once, sometime down the line.

 

I also get food I can use for combat, combat which yields seeds for Farming. Is there any sort of integration like this with Dungeoneering? Nope. And no plans to do it, either.

 

And these trinkets/rewards don't provide benefits to other skills? The Gem Bag gives far more incentive to pick up Gem drops, which can benefit Crafting or be sold for cash. In turn, the crafting levels are directly beneficial in the Dungeons, providing the ability to make better armour and open more doors. The Cash gained can level various skills both directly (buying Herblore supplies) or indirectly (buying armour, which in turn helps level combat), all of which are used in Dungeoneering. It's more indirect than the relationship between say Farming and Herblore, but is nonetheless present and significant.

 

 

 

I think one point many are missing in this debate is that one of the reasons some of us have a problem with this being called a skill is that it takes the slot of a *real* skill. It used to be that Jagex put out a new skill every 6 to 12 months. This time they waited 27 months, and the skill they released really isn't. But now they'll say "new skill released in early 2010" and it could be 27 *more* months until we get a real one.

 

Again, I do think this is a nice piece of content. But it's really a minigame wearing skill's clothing. And yes, it does matter.

 

I understand that and respect that opinion, although in this particular case I disagree. This is why the "Well if you don't like it, don't play it" argument is flawed; any poor update, even if doesn't affect anything about the way I play the game or use a feature, was still prioritized over more positive content.

 

On that note, this argument is essentially boiling down to "It feels like a minigame to me, and I am dissapointed that it was not more like a skill as promised". Fair enough; if you get the feeling that this is a minigame, that is completely acceptable and unarguable, and you are welcome to express your dissapointment. But unless you can back up that opinion, which is what Qeltar is doing, then you have no right to press your views on everyone else. And "Because I think it is, and because I played it and it feels like a minigame" is not an argument. Understood?

[anonymouse_]

God I'm so sick of idiots that have no idea what they're doing...

[Zepheras]

And these trinkets/rewards don't provide benefits to other skills? The Gem Bag gives far more incentive to pick up Gem drops, which can benefit Crafting or be sold for cash. In turn, the crafting levels are directly beneficial in the Dungeons, providing the ability to make better armour and open more doors. The Cash gained can level various skills both directly (buying Herblore supplies) or indirectly (buying armour, which in turn helps level combat), all of which are used in Dungeoneering. It's more indirect than the relationship between say Farming and Herblore, but is nonetheless present and significant.

 

We're going in circles.

 

The gem bag is crafting related, the coal bag is mining related, the weapons are combat related. But what rewards and ability are Dungeoneering related?

 

Crafter: I craft jewelleries and armours.

Fletcher: I fletch bows and arrows.

Ranger/Mage/Warrior: We kick butt.

Miner: I mine ores for..

Smither: ...to smith weapons and armour.

Slayer: I slay strange and dangerous beasts for some unique monster drops.

 

Dungeoneer: I....access more floors to open more doors. :rolleyes:

 

There's nothing "dungeoneering" about getting coal bags and gravite weapons. Those could have been added to another monster or minigame. What the skill needs is dungeon-related abilities, or rewards that gives dungeoneer an edge in where they're found; dungeons.

 

Read a few pages in the 80-90s and you'll see the same argument.

[qeltar]

And these trinkets/rewards don't provide benefits to other skills?

Sure they do, but only very tangentially. They really have nothing to do with actually building up a *skill* in something.

 

Okay, the gem bag is useful. But so is a fighter torso. Does that make Barbarian Assault a skill? Of course not. What you do and what you accomplish in Dungeoneering has really nothing to do with a gem bag or a bone crusher. They are completely unrelated rewards, just like getting a fighter torso or a horn that helps you train Agility from BA.

 

In other words, it's not like you train Runecrafting so you get better at making runes and at some point you get to make new runes or get more runes at an altar. It's more like you train up Dungeoneering, achieve a level that has no impact on anything but doing more Dungeoneering, and then someone says "Thank you for training Dungeoneering, please take this trinket as a reward". It's a kludge, and a very noticeable one at that.

 

It's more indirect than the relationship between say Farming and Herblore, but is nonetheless present and significant.

IMO, it's indirect to the point of near meaninglessness -- you start to get into "six degrees of separation" stuff where you can say anything you do is related to anything else. It's also not really that significant. It's a side benefit, a tweak, an improvement to the real skills, just like a quest reward or something from a minigame is.

 

The relationship is very weak, and also quite artificial. I find it amusing that I can do a "skill" to get a reward of a gem bag or a coal bag, when there isn't one gem or piece of coal in the entire dungeon. ;)

 

A sad but amusing realization I had earlier today is that for many players, the most significant impact of Dungeoneering on how they do other skills in RS is the free teleport near a bank, which is a new capability you get not from the actual skill, but from the ring you get the first time you show up. LOL.

[AlexRose]

And these trinkets/rewards don't provide benefits to other skills? The Gem Bag gives far more incentive to pick up Gem drops, which can benefit Crafting or be sold for cash. In turn, the crafting levels are directly beneficial in the Dungeons, providing the ability to make better armour and open more doors. The Cash gained can level various skills both directly (buying Herblore supplies) or indirectly (buying armour, which in turn helps level combat), all of which are used in Dungeoneering. It's more indirect than the relationship between say Farming and Herblore, but is nonetheless present and significant.

 

We're going in circles.

 

The gem bag is crafting related, the coal bag is mining related, the weapons are combat related. But what rewards and ability are Dungeoneering related?

 

 

Considering that all of the skills in Runescape are used in Dungeoneering, then I would say that these rewards and abilities are quite Dungeoneering related, in the loop that I described.

 

 

 

There's nothing "dungeoneering" about getting coal bags and gravite weapons. Those could have been added to another monster or minigame. What the skill needs is dungeon-related abilities, or rewards that gives dungeoneer an edge in where they're found; dungeons.

 

The reward is that you can access higher leveled floors, which give more experience and a larger variety of monsters, which in turn drop more valuable (Primal and other special Slayer drops) equipment for you to use. These do not have to take the the manifestation of the other Token rewards.

 

 

 

 

Crafter: I craft jewelleries and armours.

Fletcher: I fletch bows and arrows.

Ranger/Mage/Warrior: We kick butt.

Miner: I mine ores for..

Smither: ...to smith weapons and armour.

Slayer: I slay strange and dangerous beasts for some unique monster drops.

 

Dungeoneer: I....access more floors to open more doors. :rolleyes:

 

 

If we accept that definition of Dungeoneering, I could argue that Mining would be "I mine ores for better ores", or Fletching would be "I fletch bows to fletch better bows". But there is in fact rewards from higher Dungeoneering, both recursively (see one response above) and toward other skills (see two responses above).

[bedman]

I think this skill fits into the rest by using ALL other skills into it's "minigame". It's finally useful to have 99 agilty, or 99 herblore, or ... . It's fun to use all your hard earned lvls.

[AlexRose]

Okay, the gem bag is useful. But so is a fighter torso. Does that make Barbarian Assault a skill? Of course not. What you do and what you accomplish in Dungeoneering has really nothing to do with a gem bag or a bone crusher. They are completely unrelated rewards, just like getting a fighter torso or a horn that helps you train Agility from BA.

 

But by your own definition, you said that a skill involves outside benefits to other skills besides the skill itself (say that five times fast). You're contradicting yourself.

 

Annnnd, I have class. Expect an Edit in roughly two hours to your other points.

[Zepheras]

Which one makes sense to you? Coal bags and weapons and scrolls for new prayer, or these?

 

 

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS.

 

Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source.

Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles.

Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them

Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower.

Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas.

Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe

...

Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself.

 

And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

 

You train mining by mining ores to get better ores, you train dungeoneering by accessing and completing floors to gain access deeper floors. But don't forget, the concept of mining and miners is a single entity, neither exists without the other. Yet exploring dungeons has been something players did for years. It's not as if Runescape was a flat piece of land, and the birth of this skill adds dungeons along with it, and requires you to talk to a NPC who says "Oh my, we've recently discovered some dungeons, and we need dungeoneers to explore these new lands", and then you start gaining some levels in the easier dungeons before going to the next, as some sort of survival ability skill.

 

Put it this way, the skill would make more sense if it's call Daemonheiming instead of Dungeoneering. Then players can accept the skill as gaining levels to unlock floors and bosses in Daemonheim.

 

Sacred Claying, Pest Controlling, Army Mobilising....

[Hajutze]

Is it me or the only definition for skill is:

A ) Jagex says it is

B ) (the better one) it has exp. points.

 

If it has exp and levels - it is a skill. If they add exp and levels to SC it will count as skill obv. Since it doesn't have them - it's not a skill.

[Zepheras]

Is it me or the only definition for skill is:

A ) Jagex says it is

B ) (the better one) it has exp. points.

 

If it has exp and levels - it is a skill. If they add exp and levels to SC it will count as skill obv. Since it doesn't have them - it's not a skill.

 

Then you better pray that Jagex still has some common sense left. Slayer was pushing it, Dungeoneering is pushing it right to the edge. For all you know Warcrafting might be next.