12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[Shovelmeface]

13? I think.

[qeltar]

Honestly, just quit already. All you do is [bleep] about updates, no one wants to hear it anymore. No one should give two [cabbage]s if it's a skill or a minigame. If you like it, train it, if not, then stfu and ignore it. Afterall, It is seperate from the rest of the game, just like all of you who hate Dungeoneering say. If anyone wants to argue with mhl, take it to pm, no one wants to hear her troll, and mhl, you have no evidence to support any of your claims, pm me, I'd love to hear your personal opinion, oh, no, "fact", sorry. ;)

Who died and put you in charge?

 

Why are the incessant personal attacks against MHL tolerated here -- and that's all this pointless post consists of? There are moderators posting and completely ignoring them by the dozen.

[timmmmm83]

Fools, don't you understand? As long as your prestige point calculation is some secret arcane jibberwarky, they can change it (the formula) all about, without anyone noticing, and on the fly.

Good point, I have been wondering about the same thing, why is there a prestige bonus?

 

And I fully agree with you Qeltar, feeding a troll ain't the best thing to do.

[PenguinsLoose]

Since obtaining XP is so slow in Dung, I hope Jagex creates an alternative way of training it say, in a fun mini-game, for instance.

[Guthorm]

Since obtaining XP is so slow in Dung, I hope Jagex creates an alternative way of training it say, in a fun mini-game, for instance.

 

I am pretty sure Jagex wanted to keep the exp rate low because they want it to be a prestige skill. Besides I am 99% sure minigames offer alternative ways of training but the exp rate is always lower.

[qeltar]

And I fully agree with you Qeltar, feeding a troll ain't the best thing to do.

Uh, read what I said again. Take your time. (Hint: You're "agreeing" with something I never said or implied.)

 

Oh, and thanks for the nickel. I get one every time somebody misuses the word "troll" and I nearly have enough to get that new Ferrari I've always wanted. :roll:

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, design, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

Just wondering, are you saying that this concept of dungeon exploration should be not be implemented, or could have been implemented in a better way?

 

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

[timmmmm83]

And I fully agree with you Qeltar, feeding a troll ain't the best thing to do.

Uh, read what I said again. Take your time. (Hint: You're "agreeing" with something I never said or implied.)

 

Oh, and thanks for the nickel. I get one every time somebody misuses the word "troll" and I nearly have enough to get that new Ferrari I've always wanted. :roll:

You thought the posts in reply were offtopic and not needed, I agreed.

In the same way as the post they were replied to was not needed. (my personal opinion)

 

What is constructive about hammering on the same nail over and over and over and ... again.

 

And if you think I helped you get closer to your very own Ferrari, I'm glad to help. :^_^:

 

See above post to prove my point. ;)

[Zepheras]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, design, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

Just wondering, are you saying that this concept of dungeon exploration should be not be implemented, or could have been implemented in a better way?

 

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

 

Well, which minigame are we talking about....? Barbarian Assault?

 

How can the concept of raiding and PvE fail as either a minigame or a skill? :mellow:

[Beloved]

[hide]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, design, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

Just wondering, are you saying that this concept of dungeon exploration should be not be implemented, or could have been implemented in a better way?

 

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

[/hide]

 

Well, which minigame are we talking about....? Barbarian Assault?

 

SC obviously...

[Guthorm]

[hide]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, design, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

Just wondering, are you saying that this concept of dungeon exploration should be not be implemented, or could have been implemented in a better way?

 

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

[/hide]

 

Well, which minigame are we talking about....? Barbarian Assault?

 

SC obviously...

 

Thats like saying CWA and PKRI are the same thing. Yeh you are killing people, but there are more to that.

[qeltar]

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

I think you go a bit too far with some of these conclusions.

 

Yes, it's a minigame shoehorned into a skill. That much is obvious to anyone with a shred of objectivity. But while the content itself is similar style-wise to a couple of other minigames, it is definitely not "extremely similar" to anything else in terms of gameplay.

 

I disagree with the comments about solo players. I soloed up to level 55 and just now did a couple of team levels. And you know what? Soloing is easier. It's easier to do, it's less hassle to set up, and it's (for me) a lot more enjoyable because I can do what I want, when I want. Good teams *should* get more XP -- they earn it.

 

And don't be overly swayed by screenshots showing huge XP totals for teams. Most teams do not do as well as these groups. And all the time spent coordinating schedules and reset points and world hopping and role assigning and so forth -- that doesn't show up on the screen.

 

This is not BA where you *must* have a team of five. It's flexible enough that you can play with various sizes, and that's a good thing.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, design, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

Just wondering, are you saying that this concept of dungeon exploration should be not be implemented, or could have been implemented in a better way?

 

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

 

Well, which minigame are we talking about....? Barbarian Assault?

 

How can the concept of raiding and PvE fail as either a minigame or a skill? :mellow:

 

That concept isn't. Jagex however took that concept and expounded on it greatly and it's this total concept that I think is a failure. If it was a minigame, it wouldn't be terrible. However, the concept of making it a skill, when it isn't, and implementing it into a game where it doesn't really fit, which it doesn't, and the skill being completely unto itself and having no intergration with the game outside of itself makes it a complete failure as far as a skill goes.

[Guthorm]

Oh my god guys, alright I surrender. D'eering is the worst skill ever, it should have never existed in the first place. It is a piece of cabbage that should be bombed back to oblivion. Now because there is no way Jagex is going to remove it, can we please avoid another 50 pages debating about this and talk about how to work the skill instead?

 

For example, do you think the gatestone can be brought into RS?

[qeltar]

That concept isn't. Jagex however took that concept and expounded on it greatly and it's this total concept that I think is a failure. If it was a minigame, it wouldn't be terrible. However, the concept of making it a skill, when it isn't, and implementing it into a game where it doesn't really fit, which it doesn't, and the skill being completely unto itself and having no intergration with the game outside of itself makes it a complete failure as far as a skill goes.

Okay, so leave aside the minigame/skill issue for a moment. Have you actually given this a decent chance?

[bedman]

As a skill, it's a failure.

 

As a minigame, it's a failurew because they already have something extremely similar and do not need another like it.

 

As a concept, it's a failure because while people keep harping on what is and what is not a skill, I think a fundamental part of a skill is that it can be integrated into the game as a whole, not just set aside in one spot.

 

In design I think it's not particularly good. This is combined with it's execution. The whlole thing is overly confusing, the game play is clumsy at best, and it's also a hindrance to solo players because they are restricted in a number of ways.

 

It is, in my opinion, a failure for these reasons.

I think you go a bit too far with some of these conclusions.

 

Yes, it's a minigame shoehorned into a skill. That much is obvious to anyone with a shred of objectivity. But while the content itself is similar style-wise to a couple of other minigames, it is definitely not "extremely similar" to anything else in terms of gameplay.

 

I disagree with the comments about solo players. I soloed up to level 55 and just now did a couple of team levels. And you know what? Soloing is easier. It's easier to do, it's less hassle to set up, and it's (for me) a lot more enjoyable because I can do what I want, when I want. Good teams *should* get more XP -- they earn it.

 

And don't be overly swayed by screenshots showing huge XP totals for teams. Most teams do not do as well as these groups. And all the time spent coordinating schedules and reset points and world hopping and role assigning and so forth -- that doesn't show up on the screen.

 

This is not BA where you *must* have a team of five. It's flexible enough that you can play with various sizes, and that's a good thing.

Some great ponits you brought up.

 

I've been trying this skill finally for a decent amount of times (lvl 35 now) and my personal observation is that it seems to be a "skill" made to keep the high lvled players busy/happy. It uses a lot of other skills, so maxed people can enjoy using all their high skills, it takes a long time to level, and it is quite challenging once you get to the higher leveled dungeons (and/or if you team up). For me, who recently maxed out combat, and didn't feel like grinding more skills to get 85-90 agility and whatever, this minigame/skill is just what I needed to keep me busy and happy, because yes, I think it is enjoyable.

I do agree that it should maybe not have been a skill, but then they wouldn't be able to make you work so much for the rewards. Right now it's at least 60 hours of work for these chaotic weapons, if it weren't a skill but just some minigame people would complain how they were forced to play this minigame to get the best gear,

[Zepheras]

During the first week after Dungeoneering has been added, I had the impression that this game content is better off as a minigame, seeing that it's similar to minigames in many ways (token system, instanced areas, barrier between the training location and outside world), and offers nothing as a skill, such as abilities you unlock to be utilised in other dungeons as you level. But right now, I would think that it is a must to implement it as a skill. Not a minigame, for several reasons.

 

First off, Jagex provided lores to explain some of the situations. I didn't know of this thing called 'instanced area' until I read it somewhere on tip.it forums. The lores in the dungeon explains that:

 

There is some magical force at play here that is hard to comprehend. Recently, many of my servants were cut off - they said the dungeon I'd forged had a different layout from when they left.

 

Unless you get all technical about how the concept of 'instanced area' in Dungeoneering is similar to other minigames, this explanation makes much sense in explaining thr power of whatever is at the bottom of Daemonheim.

 

 

 

I was pretty annoyed with the fact that Jagex spent so much time re-creating similar items with different graphics just to put in the dungeon, but,

 

...even the frozen-over areas built nearly 1,000 years ago were populated by these strange deposits: Metals, new types of tree, new plants. All of these have emerged since we started the dig. I can only postulate that whatever lies at our destination, deeper still beneath the ground, is something of such great power that it can change, alter, and dare I say, taint the physical properties of matter in our world.

 

And the reason why you can't take daemonheim items out?

 

Why can't I take my items into Daemonheim?

 

The creatures and magic of Daemonheim are too dangerous to allow onto the surface of Daemonheim, so the Fremennik have set up a quarantine of sorts, disallowing any items to go into or out of the dungeons. This may seem drastic, but it does mean that you get the opportunity to make and use your own weapons, armour, food, potions and other materials.

 

If I were them, I'll just add another piece of lore in the journal saying something along the line those items crumbling to dust when we got out.

 

 

The only issue left is the token system, which I can let it slip past. For what Dungeoneering lacks as a skill, the solution is simply to add them, so it's not a major issue unless Jagex is too stubborn to listen. Then again, the Q&A provided something vague but sufficient:

 

Mors Ferres asked:

 

Do you plan to change dungeoneering to make it more "skillish" inside Runescape?

 

e.g. add new dungeons/new areas to preexisting dungeons that require a dungeoneering level to access?

Or do you plan to keep the minigame feel and comparative uselessness to the actual game that it currently has?

 

------

 

Thanks for your question.

 

Without giving too much away, there is definitely more to come in regards to updates around the Dungeoneering skill, including how it will tie in with the rest of the outside world of RuneScape.

 

The advantage of having this content as a skill rather as a minigame is that rewards can be more generously overpowering. If you agree that the best equipment shouldn't be tradeable just so that people can buy their way up, allocating powerful rewards (new prayer, highest level gear etc) to a skill would be much better than toning down rewards and giving it to a minigame just so that people don't feel 'forced' to play it. As a skill, you feel more...obliged to train and get some levels in it, compared to grinding through a minigame. Even if you feel forced to train the skill, it beats feeling forced to play a minigame, due to the difference in status. It's like firemaking and the handcannon. You don't see floods of people complaining that they need to train firemaking just so that their handcannon won't break too soon, instead it is a matter of "I should get my firemaking SKILL up so that I can get the most out of my handcannon".

 

Except for a few puzzles and boss ability that you might need to spend time figuring out what to do (it is intended), what's so confusing about using keys the size of bricks to open doors? The only thing confusing in the whole concept is the matter of prestige. It is not the best solution, but still decent enough to take out the grinding part that every skill faces. Not fully understanding it will result in the loss of XP for the first few hours, and Jagex probably needs to better explain it in-game and on the KB. Other than that the majority of the actions in the dungeon is similar to the controls above ground.

 

It's a skill where playing in groups reaps a little better XP, that's it. Soloing it isn't a problem since the combat level of the boss is adjusted. It wouldn't make sense to give more XP to a solo player than a group player, and implementing the skill without teaming capabilities would just invite more questions on the lack of it. Removing teamplay won't improve your solo XP in any way either, but will deny players who want to play in teams the right to do so.

[Beloved]

That concept isn't. Jagex however took that concept and expounded on it greatly and it's this total concept that I think is a failure. If it was a minigame, it wouldn't be terrible. However, the concept of making it a skill, when it isn't, and implementing it into a game where it doesn't really fit, which it doesn't, and the skill being completely unto itself and having no intergration with the game outside of itself makes it a complete failure as far as a skill goes.

I have to say i agree with you on that. They had every opportunity to make dungeoneering interact with the rest of gielinor, like dungeons across the world map and boss drops that are (only) useful outside of the dungeons, unfortunately they somehow choose not to (or forgot?). I suspect they have their reasons, i just hope they are the right ones...

[NukeMarine]

This has probably been asked about already, but:

 

Why can't Jagex put a "Base XP" counter on the screen as we're playing through the dungeon?

 

It's more encouraging to see what XP you can expect as you play and see what's getting you experience and what isn't. Also, assuming you get 1/6th base XP in event of quitting the floor, players can at least know what they're losing out on.

 

Would you enjoy this "skill" better if you didn't have to wait 45 minutes to tell what your experience actually is?

[jsboutin2]

That concept isn't. Jagex however took that concept and expounded on it greatly and it's this total concept that I think is a failure. If it was a minigame, it wouldn't be terrible. However, the concept of making it a skill, when it isn't, and implementing it into a game where it doesn't really fit, which it doesn't, and the skill being completely unto itself and having no intergration with the game outside of itself makes it a complete failure as far as a skill goes.

I have to say i agree with you on that. They had every opportunity to make dungeoneering interact with the rest of gielinor, like dungeons across the world map and boss drops that are (only) useful outside of the dungeons, unfortunately they somehow choose not to (or forgot?). I suspect they have their reasons, i just hope they are the right ones...

 

The skill has been out for about 10 days. Who tells you that there are not a few other dungeons currently planned?

[Zepheras]

This has probably been asked about already, but:

 

Why can't Jagex put a "Base XP" counter on the screen as we're playing through the dungeon?

 

It's more encouraging to see what XP you can expect as you play and see what's getting you experience and what isn't. Also, assuming you get 1/6th base XP in event of quitting the floor, players can at least know what they're losing out on.

 

Would you enjoy this "skill" better if you didn't have to wait 45 minutes to tell what your experience actually is?

 

Not really, but it'll definitely encourage more players to quit on their teammates the moment they die too often and see their base XP decreasing.

[Beloved]

That concept isn't. Jagex however took that concept and expounded on it greatly and it's this total concept that I think is a failure. If it was a minigame, it wouldn't be terrible. However, the concept of making it a skill, when it isn't, and implementing it into a game where it doesn't really fit, which it doesn't, and the skill being completely unto itself and having no intergration with the game outside of itself makes it a complete failure as far as a skill goes.

I have to say i agree with you on that. They had every opportunity to make dungeoneering interact with the rest of gielinor, like dungeons across the world map and boss drops that are (only) useful outside of the dungeons, unfortunately they somehow choose not to (or forgot?). I suspect they have their reasons, i just hope they are the right ones...

 

The skill has been out for about 10 days. Who tells you that there are not a few other dungeons currently planned?

you havent read yesterdays Q&A have you? try reading up before trying to be a smart [wagon] ;)

[Myweponsg00d]

Can someone just explain one thing to me:

 

A lot of this debate about the skill being good brings in "BUT its a minigame!" (or, a skill-minigame hybrid)

 

Whether or not it IS a minigame, why would it be a BAD thing? I mean, Slayer is virtually a mini game. Hell, its virtually the same thing as building that statue (you are rewarded for doing things that were already in the game). But why would dungeoneering be evil if it WAS a mini game?

[lordkafei]

This has probably been asked about already, but:

 

Why can't Jagex put a "Base XP" counter on the screen as we're playing through the dungeon?

 

It's more encouraging to see what XP you can expect as you play and see what's getting you experience and what isn't. Also, assuming you get 1/6th base XP in event of quitting the floor, players can at least know what they're losing out on.

 

Would you enjoy this "skill" better if you didn't have to wait 45 minutes to tell what your experience actually is?

 

I'd like to see a modification of the XP counter - a way to focus it on one specific skill.

 

I get palpitations as I go through Dung, watching the XP mount up.

 

I get sorely let down when I get to the end and see that only a sliver of all that XP is actual Dung XP.

 

I'd like to be able to target that counter on 1 specific skill.

[Zepheras]

Can someone just explain one thing to me:

 

A lot of this debate about the skill being good brings in "BUT its a minigame!" (or, a skill-minigame hybrid)

 

Whether or not it IS a minigame, why would it be a BAD thing? I mean, Slayer is virtually a mini game. Hell, its virtually the same thing as building that statue (you are rewarded for doing things that were already in the game). But why would dungeoneering be evil if it WAS a mini game?

 

It's a matter of packaging. If you fail to package the content in a way that lets people clearly see it as a minigame or a unique skill, it's confuses the players. a minigame/D&D that feels like a skill isn't that bad, looking at Fish Flinger. A SKILL, something that has a major role in this game, packaged wrongly is disastrous. Look at how vocal today's runescapers are compared to the past.

 

Take agility and slayer for example, if today agility is is added to the game the same way as it was in the past where you train within the course, and even 'unlock' the agility armour, but has no application outside, you will be seeing the same rants as with dungeoneering until something is done. If slayer is added as it was in the past, but you don't get direct loot or XP, but instead a calculation screen showing you the number of beasts you killed as the based XP, modified by time taken, damage you received and then converting the XP to tokens, after which you trade for untradeable abyssal whips and rune boots, you'll see the same thing as well.