12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[Zepheras]

Well guys, I tried my best, posted six questions, two were indrectly answered.

 

Question 1:

Do you think that the current reward system, while removing the luck factor, is a rather uncreative way to reward players for a skill that involves exploring dungeons and killing monsters, not to mention somewhat similar to almost every activity in the game? There’s no excitement and lore involved, such as discovering a chest room that gives some exhaustible commodity to be used above ground, or collecting a ‘frosty page’ as a 100% drop off every 3rd Astea Frostweb kill such that X number of pages creates the Tome of Frost.

 

Would this be changed? Or will there be new rewards that aren’t based on tokens, but obtainable within the dungeon itself?

 

 

Question 2:

The weapon and combat system in Daemonheim is clearly an improved version compared to what we have above ground. Combat-wise, we don’t have a single weapon (Ahem, scimitar) overpowering other weapons as the best weapon, the speed class of dungeoneer battleaxes, warhammers and 2h swords are one class above those bronze-dragon ones, warhammers have their strength bonus improved, longbows and shortbows actually have a different attack bonus etc (without the sight). I’m sure skill-wise there are differences as well, such as log quality affects cooking success rate.

 

It’s like a perfect mini-RuneScape world. Will we see this rebalance with the systems outside Daemonheim (please)?

 

 

Question 3:

The 50% XP nerf for F2P players seems like a flawed solution, creating an unfair advantage between a level 89 (or below) and level 90 player. I understand the need for members to have an advantage in XP gaining, but can this be done through a proportional reduction for every F2P player for the same floor and prestige level as a member?

 

 

Question 4:

The complexity system on F2P is somewhat strange, seeing that level 4-6 containing member skills are accessible to F2P players, and F2P players either get lucky and gain as much XP as a member (if you’re below level 90), or get unlucky and have the XP reduced, in addition to the 50% nerf for level 90+ players. Is it possible to remove complexity 4-6 on F2P, so that every F2P player gets a -35% penalty (or a suitable amount), and at the same time remove the 50% XP nerf for level 90+ players?

 

 

Question 5:

Dungeoneering is a fun skill compared to many others, but having lots of level in the skill itself does not change or impact the gameplay outside of Daemonheim. Is it possible to unlock dungeon related benefits when we gain a certain Dungeoneering level? For example, able to bypass vine obstacle in Brimhaven dungeon at level 35 Dungeoneering, increased chances of gems from mining metal ore rocks in all dungeons at level 40 Dungeoneering etc. (And please don’t make us have to buy them using tokens again, it should be an ability you automatically gain for training the skill)

 

 

 

Question 6:

The room bonus is a double edged sword. If you complete it, you get a 13% XP bonus. If somehow you couldn’t unlock the first bonus room which leads to the next and next, not only do you get a 0% bonus, your prestige and floor base XP gets slash to approximately half as well. And sometimes it’s a problem with luck as well, such as requiring a herb to make potion to boost the skill level to 103, but the herb isn’t available. Can this issue be rectified?

 

 

 

I guess this counts as an answer for 2,

 

As you have correctly identified, the combat in Daemonheim is specifically designed to use the combat triangle, even down to making warhammers useful as some NPC's have distinct weakness against crush attacks. As for the actual answer, I can't say what we'll be doing to the above ground equipment, but reinforcing the combat triangle is something we are always trying to do.

 

 

And this for 5,

 

Thanks for your question.

 

Without giving too much away, there is definitely more to come in regards to updates around the Dungeoneering skill, including how it will tie in with the rest of the outside world of RuneScape.

 

 

Nothing about the XP calculation involving bonus rooms, and the 50% nerf for level 90+ F2P players.. :wall:

[strilmus]

In general, rushing causes your base exp to get cut. Also I have noticed that when I take the time to sneak a bit of skilling while my party thinks that getting most of the kills is better for their exp (killing the monsters is important but it doesn't seem important for any particular individual to get the kills), I actually receive additional exp on top of that gained when the party has also cleared out the monsters.

 

On the whole, instead of focusing on only rushing the rooms to get to the boss, you should figure out how to do more things like skilling and converting junk to money efficiently with less trips. Alching may seem like a waste of time to some but you can do it while moving, so why not? It's especially useful in the larger dungeons and also you don't have to keep busting a gatestone out every single time your pack fills up.

 

This blurb in the Q&A annoys me though.

 

The base XP is first of all based on the floor number, but then modified by a lot of factors that try to determine how much time we expected that specific dungeon to take to complete. There is unfortunately a bit too much maths going on here to fit it on the reward interface.

 

I mean would it kill them to at least tell us what the factors are instead of this guesswork?

[SirHartlar]

I don't understand Jagex answers to questions about solo play. People are asking if they would consider boosting xp for solo players who don't like playing with others, and in response they are saying that most people like working in groups so therefore the xp for solo play is ok? I only have the time to do a floor here and there, making a team would bite into that time so therefore I solo. Should I penalised for this? :mellow:

[Guthorm]

I don't understand Jagex answers to questions about solo play. People are asking if they would consider boosting xp for solo players who don't like playing with others, and in response they are saying that most people like working in groups so therefore the xp for solo play is ok? I only have the time to do a floor here and there, making a team would bite into that time so therefore I solo. Should I penalised for this? :mellow:

 

I think is more like because team play is harder, therefore you are rewarded more. I mean if team and solo have the same exp rate, people would just play solo for less hassle/exp and team for fun.

[Zepheras]

In general, rushing causes your base exp to get cut. Also I have noticed that when I take the time to sneak a bit of skilling while my party thinks that getting most of the kills is better for their exp, I actually receive additional exp on top of that gained when the party has also cleared out the monsters.

 

On the whole, instead of focusing on only rushing the rooms to get to the boss, you should figure out how to do more things like skilling and converting junk to money efficiently with less trips. Alching may seem like a waste of time to some but you can do it while moving, so why not? It's especially useful in the larger dungeons and also you don't have to keep busting a gatestone out every single time your pack fills up.

 

 

 

I think some of you may have misunderstood the answer. My take on this is, they did a test run on say, how long a level 40 player with level 40 in every other skill takes to complete a level 40 dungeoneering floor, and then assign a XP value suitable for the time taken. If you have greater skill abilities and hence complete the level faster, of course you end the dungeon and get your XP faster, hence the better XP rate.

 

So, if you finish in ten minutes a floor that gives B amount of XP, your XP rate is 6B per hour. If you complete the floor in an hour by playing catch with your teammate, you still get B amount of XP, but the rate's 1B per hour. You rush to do everything as fast as possible, not rush to the boss (bypassing rooms and monsters) thinking that time affects the the calculation of base XP.

[strilmus]

Yeah, I find that when I'm not grouping, I can take my time to do stuff, and not constantly get my drops taken by selfish team members.....

 

Plus it seems like many of them don't know how to clear some puzzles or fight some kinds of bosses effectively.

 

I was thinking about writing an article focusing on the teaming aspect of dungeon gameplay.

[Kilo]

Yeah, I find that when I'm not grouping, I can take my time to do stuff, and not constantly get my drops taken by selfish team members.....

 

Plus it seems like many of them don't know how to clear some puzzles or fight some kinds of bosses effectively.

 

I was thinking about writing an article focusing on the teaming aspect of dungeon gameplay.

 

Yes, greed might be what ruins this game for me when it comes to groups. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but some people just nab everything. It gets a little frustrating when you get a team mate who's been practicing picking coins and blue charms out of monster drop piles.

[Clan_Chat_Op]

4. The base XP is based on what floor you completed, but then adjusted based on how long we expect that particular dungeon to be completed in. If you complete it faster than this, then you'll get faster XP than the dungeon thought you would. If you take longer, then your XP per hour will be slower.

 

 

^Interesting point, so time is a factor in the exp?

lol that makes rushing a very good option!

 

 

 

 

I think you need to carefully read what he wrote again. This is how rumors get started.

 

 

[Lep]

Are there any weak, aggressive monsters that drop big bones, for the bonecrusher? The cyclops' in GWD pop in mind, but how many are there? Are they near other monsters? Ideas anyone?

[strilmus]

Not sure, but killing Hill Giants in the ol F2P dungeon is pretty easy so you could try that.

 

For members, you may dive into the training camp's ogre cage in a busy world, scoop up everybody's discarded bones, and run away in the night cackling your head off.

 

If you're gonna be doing this, I don't see why you need aggro since you're gonna have to pay attention to pick up bones anyway...

 

The more I read this Q&A, the more mixed messages there are. Lol.

[Hajutze]

Are there any weak, aggressive monsters that drop big bones, for the bonecrusher?

since you're gonna have to pay attention to pick up bones anyway...

I think you're doing it wrong (I just had to say it)

[strilmus]

Wait, so you don't even have to pick them up?

 

Geez that's kind of overkill. And it affects kills only? So you can't use it to crush picked up bones in your inventory en masse?

 

Well at least you could still shoot ogres in the cage and not have to go in to get the bones.

 

In other news:

 

Two) The combat triangle is very balanced in D'eering, warhammers have same speed as longswords etc etc. Are you using Daemonhelm as a beta test area for future combat triangle balances?"

 

2. I'll take that as a compliment, thank you. From a personal point of view, it was great to be able to just rebalance all armour and weapons in the dungeons and NPCs along with them. However, doing so outside of Daemonheim would have a massive impact on the rest of the game. So no, this was not meant to be a beta test, but more of a wonderful opportunity to ignore everything that already existed and start with a clean sheet.

Lol, looks like we're stuck with the broken combat system.

[Soma2035]

There's no point of course in discussing each other's preferences (and styles that flow out of these things). However 15 minute for small floors means I could do 3 floors while you do 1. Meaning I would get 300% exp, you get 116% xp..

 

Thus while maximizing profits & xp (sadly there is only 1 "reward" for doing dungeons, and thus only 1 style will be "best" in all cases) small dungeons would be best.. (and in those cases I don't need gatestones, I never ever tele back and forth)..

 

But of course with dungeoneering you'll haveto play the style you like most, playing for experience/rewards very, very boring.

 

A lot of people don't realize that the multipliers are applied twice. It's already been tested and proved that "Bonus Rooms" first gives a hefty bonus to your base floor / prestige XP, and is then applied again onto the average along with the other multipliers. Also, from experience, on floors 2X I was earning ~10K with a 3-man team and ~20K with a 5-man team (with less modifiers, as we found more impossible obstacles).

 

In the end, my guess is that the rate is roughly the same. Several of the people within the top 100 on the high scores play alone, several play duo, and I've seen many play with large teams. If you do the math, it works out too. Floor 32 5:5 Large yields nearly 50K experience. If the difference between 3-man and solo is proportional to the difference between 5-man and 3-man, then a solo players probably earns ~10K per dungeon. Seeing as the 5:5 Large takes a little more than an hour, while the 1:1 dungeons take maybe 10 minutes, after you factor the time spent between rounds and the occasional disconnect / lag spike / browser crash / etc, you come out with approximately the same rates. A coordinated 5:5 team is naturally faster than my last minute scrapped together people standing in the lobby teams.

 

So in the end, I guess it really does come down to what style you want. If you find solo-ing dungeons and clearing many of them quickly, magic probably isn't so useful. But if you're playing with a large team, magic is very, very effective and more than worth the small amount of time it takes to setup.

 

I still want a Celestial Catalytic Staff. :P

[taxman]

I've just been reading through the rewards and sorry if this has previously been mentioned but is there the possibility that it could be easier to recharge the weapons/shields then we think?

 

It says 2million GP or tokens and 200k to recharge. Surely if the number of tokens is reasonable (which is unlikely if left at similar levels to previous reward costs) it may become the weapon of choice for many average scapers? Also i am interested to know the drain rate of the shield, seems like it could have a few cool uses.

 

Guess we won't know everything til it is tried and tested which looking at the highscores could be fairly soonish :)

[Bladewing]

I've just been reading through the rewards and sorry if this has previously been mentioned but is there the possibility that it could be easier to recharge the weapons/shields then we think?

 

It says 2million GP or tokens and 200k to recharge. Surely if the number of tokens is reasonable (which is unlikely if left at similar levels to previous reward costs) it may become the weapon of choice for many average scapers? Also i am interested to know the drain rate of the shield, seems like it could have a few cool uses.

 

Guess we won't know everything til it is tried and tested which looking at the highscores could be fairly soonish :)

I plan to use the chaotic rapier regardless of how many tokens it takes. If it's too much I'll just pay cash.

[Myweponsg00d]

Why does the shield for rangers soak up ranged damage? And the shield for mages soak up magic? And melee for melee?

 

Shouldnt the melee shield soak up ranged damage, the ranged shield soak up magic, and the magic shield soak up melee?

[Danqazmlp]

Are there any weak, aggressive monsters that drop big bones, for the bonecrusher? The cyclops' in GWD pop in mind, but how many are there? Are they near other monsters? Ideas anyone?

 

 

I don't know of aggressive, but the hill giants in Taverly dngeon are the single best place to get big bones. You should be 1-2 hitting them all, and there are enough in a close area so that in effect, you rarely miss an attack action.

[PenguinsLoose]

It...kind of is.

 

The last time I teamed up, one minute was enough for everybody to leave me behind and kill the boss by themselves.

 

Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong. People talk about clearing a dungeon in 10 minutes; but I have never been so fast. I always solo, so that may be the reason. But ONE minute into the dungeon and they find and kill the boss? Either I am the worst Dunger in the world, or some people are exaggerating a little with their times.

[Maxingmck]

Also does it work with a cannon

[PenguinsLoose]

4. The base XP is based on what floor you completed, but then adjusted based on how long we expect that particular dungeon to be completed in. If you complete it faster than this, then you'll get faster XP than the dungeon thought you would. If you take longer, then your XP per hour will be slower.

 

 

^Interesting point, so time is a factor in the exp?

lol that makes rushing a very good option!

 

Time is not a factor. He said that the XP given for a floor is based on how long they expected a floor to take. If you do it faster than their estimate, you get the XP for that floor faster, but you dont get more XP. Since you are faster, you are doing more floors per hour than they expected, therefore more XP per hour, but not more XP per floor.

[Bladewing]

Also does it work with a cannon

What is "it"?

[strilmus]

It...kind of is.

 

The last time I teamed up, one minute was enough for everybody to leave me behind and kill the boss by themselves.

 

Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong. People talk about clearing a dungeon in 10 minutes; but I have never been so fast. I always solo, so that may be the reason. But ONE minute into the dungeon and they find and kill the boss? Either I am the worst Dunger in the world, or some people are exaggerating a little with their times.

People in random teams are somewhat impatient, and if you team up with others with a higher level than you, the average favors their stats over yours.

 

Also does it work with a cannon

What is "it"?

 

With my new understanding of the Bonecrusher I am led to believe that he is asking if the cannon's kills are affected by the Bonecrusher as well.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, desgin, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

I do like how in the Q&A the people asking about it being a minigame, they say to see the FAQ. The FAQ says they don't think it's a problem so oh well.

 

Proves my point, at least to me, that they really are screwing things up and the redefining of their game is going to continue.

 

Oh, and I'm actually in favor of keeping Dungeoneering strictly in Daemonheim. I like to think of it as a quarantine. Keep it out of the quests and regular play so I can completely ignore it.

[Lep]

Hmm good though about cannon. Bloodvelds drop lots of bones, so cannoning them would be good? Or would cannoning dagannoths be better? Hmm... It's definately a godsend to chinning mummies though.

[Danqazmlp]

Even with the reward changes, it's still an awful skill. It's a failure, and not a fail, but a true failure, in concept, desgin, execution, and basically in every manner I can think of outside of graphics. It's an embarrassment.

 

I do like how in the Q&A the people asking about it being a minigame, they say to see the FAQ. The FAQ says they don't think it's a problem so oh well.

 

Proves my point, at least to me, that they really are screwing things up and the redefining of their game is going to continue.

 

Oh, and I'm actually in favor of keeping Dungeoneering strictly in Daemonheim. I like to think of it as a quarantine. Keep it out of the quests and regular play so I can completely ignore it.

 

 

Why can success of something not be based totally on whether or not people are enjoying it?

 

Basically, #1 priority to Jagex and me as a customer is enjoyment. I couldn't give two [cabbage]s if it fits in with your skill stereotype or your mini-game stereotype, I enjoy the bloody thing, so do probably millions of others, so it is an outright success is it not?