Should Jagex make a rule that forbids price manipulation aka "Merchant clans"?

[BeNiceOk]

if i have money, I want to be able to spend it however i deem fit.

 

If it raises the prices to where you cant afford stuff, too bad, too sad for you.

Noone is stopping you from using your money on items or skills. If you HAVE money, why do you need more? and more importantly why play a game to make only more money? And why not do it in a way that don't affect others? I'm surprised of your comment.

 

Because its a game. Every aspect of the game is just that; a game.

 

Not everyone enjoys spending money on skills or training stats. Some people just enjoy letting their cash pile grow bigger. To them THAT is the game. Saying one thing should not be fun to someone is like saying "I don't like this so neither should you". If you think the world works like that you are in for a very rude awakening.

 

More on-topic-ish: Jagex have already said they don't think people in mass-merchant clans making items unbuyable is necessary in the spirit of the game, but they also said its not a primary concern. They only people than can destroy the merchant clans from running is the people themselves.

 

Don't ask Jagex to amputate the leg because it has a small scrape on it.

[PereGrin]

Why would it not be impossible?

 

I'll give an example. Say, I create and lead a manipulation clan with account A. I encourage players to spam at the Grand Exchange, advertise ourselves in ways existing clans use, and buy up materials in bulk. With the rule implemented, someone reported my account A for manipulation, and this account of mine gets banned. But lo and behold, my main account isn't affected! My main account is the one buying up materials before I even mention the item on account A, and the first to dump on the market before anyone else, and best of all, it's not affiliated to the clan in anyway. Everything is done in private.

 

You can ban account A, but the main account hasn't done anything wrong. Is the intent to manipulate prices clear-cut? Is it an offence to buy up 5k uncut rubies today (oh, I love collecting gems) and sell them one week later (oh, I don't collect them anymore)? IP banning would be out of the question when the whole detecting-who-has-the-intent-to-manipulate issue is in the grey zone.

Banning accounts would slow the price manipulator a little (even if you have a super program that creates accounts + tutorial play). Sooner or later the price manipulator will get a little bugged by it. But who-has-the-itent- to-manipulate issue makes me speechless.

 

And a rule is better than no rule.

 

A rule would be not be better then no rule. For example: Some small country bans white socks. This makes everyone who owns white socks now a criminal. Granted, there might have been a small number of people who were weaving their white socks with C4 and detonating them to cause damage, but there is also the rest of the law abiding citizens who own white socks who now become criminals. Now, these law abiding citizens get rid of their white socks so that they can continue being law abiding citizens. Does this mean that "sock bombers" stop using their sock bombs? No! They have no respect for the law anyway, so why would they decide to stop because they might get caught with white socks. So the net effect is that all the law abiding citizens now get more athletes foot, and the criminals have not been hurt in any way. Nothing has been accomplished. This law would have been better had it never been passed.

 

Applied to RS:

 

Jagex makes a rule that outlaws buying items in mass quantities from the ge. Now, someone who has been tirelessly training rc, and now has 99 rc, decides they want to get 99 herblore and 99 prayer. They go to buy 48k dragon bones, and all the supplies for herblore. Jagex thinks they are trying to manipulate the prices of d bones and herbs, and hands down a ban. This nice law abiding citizen now has been banned for "breaking the rules" and the merch clans just keep right on going. Purchasing smaller amounts from the ge and buying the rest from players, thus still creating a shortage and causing prices to rise. This rule would cause far far far more harm to innocent people then to manipulators. Better if it had never been made.

 

Prices would rise just as much, because with the same shortage, the general public would become the "merch clan" and cause the price to skyrocket. Breaking the rules without getting caught is easy, and the people already doing this dont care if a new rule comes out because its not like they will break 6 rules, but refuse to break 7 rules.

 

This isn't the first post I've seen on this, and its probably not going to be the last. But no matter people think or say, Jagex isn't going to start dishing out bans to people they think might be manipulaing prices. There is a topic on the RSOF about this explaining everything.

 

The only thing that I would suggest is to have an auto mute feature, that activates if you say the exact same thing 100 times in 10 minutes. Then your account would be muted automatically for 2 days or something. Hopefully this would clear the air up around the ge.

[Dire_Wolf]

Because its a game. Every aspect of the game is just that; a game.

 

Not everyone enjoys spending money on skills or training stats. Some people just enjoy letting their cash pile grow bigger. To them THAT is the game. Saying one thing should not be fun to someone is like saying "I don't like this so neither should you". If you think the world works like that you are in for a very rude awakening.

 

More on-topic-ish: Jagex have already said they don't think people in mass-merchant clans making items unbuyable is necessary in the spirit of the game, but they also said its not a primary concern. They only people than can destroy the merchant clans from running is the people themselves.

 

Don't ask Jagex to amputate the leg because it has a small scrape on it.

No, i am aware and understand that some players finding a growing gold bag a game. But i don't get why you have to do it by manipulating prices of the game. I'ma not continue to talk about this though so let's this be the end.

[Logdotzip]

if i have money, I want to be able to spend it however i deem fit.

 

If it raises the prices to where you cant afford stuff, too bad, too sad for you.

Noone is stopping you from using your money on items or skills. If you HAVE money, why do you need more? and more importantly why play a game to make only more money? And why not do it in a way that don't affect others? I'm surprised of your comment.

 

Why does ANYONE want to succeed and be well off? Not everyone is content with having just enough. And I see nothing wrong with that. It's just self-interest. If everyone was given the same with no motivation to get more, the game would be worse off overall. People who go monster hunt wouldn't bother anymore if they knew what they could purchase or receive was to be limited, thereby affecting everyone.

 

 

As for the world hunger etc. post earlier, it was merely an example of what you are doing, which is asking a question about a problem EVERYONE wants fixed. The vast majority want world hunger to be gone, as well as peace amongst nations, similar to the vast majority wanting manipulation to end. The problem is implementing it. I wasn't comparing something as serious as real people suffering to a game, I was just relating them in an easier to understand, and sarcastic way.

[Zepheras]

I agree with everyone who says that the rule would be much too difficult to properly enforce. Like Bladewing said, it's the GE that needs to be fixed first.

 

Yep, the fact that the GE can be manipulated is the disease that should be cured. The situation of players exploiting it is the aftereffect, or the symptoms.

[sees_all1]

There should not be a rule that forbids price manipulation or merchant clans.

 

The current rules on disruptive behavior, and autoing should be more strictly enforced. That would take care of 90% of the problem.

[ilovecuttingyews]

if i have money, I want to be able to spend it however i deem fit.

If it raises the prices to where you cant afford stuff, too bad, too sad for you.

I agree with this. If i want to buy 100Mil Pure ess why shouldnt i?

But the problem with these price manipulators is that they buy out the entire stock of items for the sole purpose of forcing people to pay more for them (thus making the hoarders money). If you enjoy collecting gems or something, or just want to train a skill en masse, more power to you. But if you are buying the items with the sole purpose of raising prices, that IMO is wrong.

 

I've talked to more then enough manipulation clan leaders to say that they know what they are doing to the economy and to the non-ranks. These clans manipulate prices by manipulating people. That is nothing short of scamming. By promising "Free millz if you join [merch cc]!" and then turning arround and pre-dumping the items the owners ARE scammers.

 

I could rant and rave about this all day but I have to get back to studying for finals....I'll check back up here tonight when I have 'more time' and see if I can muster up enough mental power to get my thoughts into words.

[Krampell]

Impossible to stop players from doing it.

Even if it becomes a rule, there is always going to be rule breakers and besides, there is no real proof that some one is breaking that rule.

Sure they could try, but I doubt it's gonna successful.

[lordkafei]

What many of you seem to want is a Jagex-run store where you can go and always buy x amount of widgets @ a fixed price. Or perhaps the RS equivalent of price-fixing.

 

If you limit the amount of money people can make by selling widgets, then people will stop producing widgets (or only produce what they themselves need) and you still won't be able to get your precious widgets through the GE.

 

IOW, suck it up, get off your backside and go gather your own widgets.

 

As for clans advertising in the GE public space, I agree that Jagex could take a more active stance against auto-typers.

 

But anyone who really wants to form a merch clan can use an external chat app to do their business anyways. So while you could clean up the GE, I doubt you could do anything about the clans themselves.

[RSBDavid]

The real solution is taxing everything. Yes, if Obama says it will work, it must work in game, eh?

 

 

Or if everyone joins a merching clan it will get old after awhile and most clans will fall apart.

[Laura]

The merchanting clans that do the most damage aren't the ones being advertised. The moderating team has been at work quelling the spam; it is very difficult to advertise these clan chats for any length of time at the Grand Exchange.

[Den]

I wouldnt miss them if thats what your asking. :P

 

Id love it if they all vanished from the face of the earth, not to be mean or anything.

[ilovecuttingyews]

And tbh yes hording tons of items to make a profit is kinda shady i dont find it to be wrong. It like any other merchenting is taking money away from someone else.

Since no new money is created by trading through the ge, then every GP you make via merchenting someone else looses.

Just a thought

I agree with your points with the conservation of GP (studying chem right now so it's much like thermodynamics). But the difference between what I see as 'true' merchanting and manipulation is that merchanting takes advantage of the natural 'void' of usually +/- 2% of med price. Within here is where items are bought and sold (for stable items). People can choose to pay med+2% and get the item instantly, or put in an offer for med-2% and wait several hours to get the item. Where merchanters come in, is to act as a buffer between the 2 limits and stabalize the item. If an item starts to fall closer to the -2%, the items get sold into the hands of merchanters who then stick the items into the GE for +2% where they sit until people start to buy for that price. But since there are so many sell offers at that price, it never really rises, the prices just shift within this 'void'.

 

So yes, merchanting does take potential GP away from some players, but it is more of a small 'convenience fee'. Same concept as a convenience store in real life. Slightly higher prices in exchange for the goods that you want, at the time you want them. Where you start moving away from convenience fee into manipulation is when people start to hoard the markets. By owning all of the items and hoarding them, you are moving into monopolization of the markets. If you are the primary owner of the goods, you can seemingly dictate the price at your will and make people pay that in exchange for the items. And by manipulating people into helping you corner and control the market (but making sure they can't talk in the CC so that they can't 'rise up' and dictacte the prices on their own terms because they typicly own just as much shares as you) you are creating a monopoly on the item which is never a good thing.

[Laura]

Prohibiting something that you cannot accurately define and describe is a recipe for disaster (and I don't mean the quest).

 

This is one thing I can agree with you on. There's so much of a gray zone here that many non-manipulators will be unfairly punished, and many manipulators will go unpunished. It's a respectable idea, and it will even out the economy to be more stable- but it will be nigh impossible to implement it to be 100% accurate at only punishing manipulators.

In Poker a player can bluff, but it might not be a bluff either. Now if Jagex releases a rule that says they forbid price manipulation, and in the mean time they can TRY to find a solution. A solution that will work pretty good. And then the rule will in mean time scare players to do price manipulation.

 

And those that keep on doing it, will one day find themself banned.

Fear of punishment only works as a deterrent for brief periods of time. Considering that the Grand Exchange has been out for over a year, I don't see that being a particularly effective method, even given its brief implementation.

[Will H]

No, WE DONT NEED MORE RULES, OR MORE REGULATIONS.

 

if jagex didnt try to control the game as much as they do the GE wouldnt exist in the first play.

 

If we had less rules the Merch Clans would evaporate instantly. Their there only because Jagex controls the market too much in the first place

 

Oh shut up. If we didn't have these regulations now, Jagex would have lost their credit card contracts and you wouldn't be playing the game at all, so drop it.

 

You can't ban 'price manipulation' because it's nigh on impossible to define it. Instead, a good start would be to dissallow any advertisement for price manipulation clans in game or on the forums. That's definable and enforcable. Ultimately these things almost always only work when you have large amounts of people coordinated to do the same thing, which is why manipulation clans advertise. It also will reduce the victims of early item dumping and generally will sort out the spambot problem at the Grand Exchange.

 

No, this won't fix it, but it's possibly the easiest and first step of many.

[qeltar]

And a rule is better than no rule.

Not only is this absolutely false -- as demonstrated innumerable times throughout history -- the fact that you even suggest it demonstrates that you haven't really thought this issue through very well.

[Misterknowitall]

There should be a rule against the advertisement of merchant clans.

[Thus]

There should be a rule against the advertisement of merchant clans.

 

This. If we just make a rule forbidding advertising, then things should be better.

[Dire_Wolf]

And a rule is better than no rule.

Not only is this absolutely false -- as demonstrated innumerable times throughout history -- the fact that you even suggest it demonstrates that you haven't really thought this issue through very well.

No i have not thought well about that rule suggestion, but who gives a crap? If your so knowledgeable, the least you can do is inform me of what can go wrong instead of telling me that i have not thought well about the rule.

 

Now stop being a [bleep]en [wagon] and go into details. Your really pissing me off. If you don't want to go into details, then don't [bleep]en come into this topic.

 

That simple. And no, i'm not much of a thinker.

[stonewall337]

No we don't need more rules. If you aren't able to figure out how to beat these guys at their own game, then that's just too bad TBH. It isn't hard to profit off them.

[Dire_Wolf]

No we don't need more rules. If you aren't able to figure out how to beat these guys at their own game, then that's just too bad TBH. It isn't hard to profit off them.

A rule that says no advertising of merchant clans do help

[qeltar]

That simple. And no, i'm not much of a thinker.

I'm not much of a person who spends a lot of time outlining logical arguments to someone who seems to proudly admit that he is not much of a thinker.

 

Simply put: a bad law is much worse than no law at all. And one of the prerequisites for making a good law is a very clear definition of what it makes illegal. Without that, it becomes more about persecution than prosecution.

 

If nobody can agree on what the law prohibits, then anyone can be in violation of the law and not even realize it. That's not just bad, it's idiotic.

[stonewall337]

That simple. And no, i'm not much of a thinker.

I'm not much of a person who spends a lot of time outlining logical arguments to someone who seems to proudly admit that he is not much of a thinker.

 

Simply put: a bad law is much worse than no law at all. And one of the prerequisites for making a good law is a very clear definition of what it makes illegal. Without that, it becomes more about persecution than prosecution.

 

If nobody can agree on what the law prohibits, then anyone can be in violation of the law and not even realize it. That's not just bad, it's idiotic.

 

Agreed.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Monopolies, that was the word i was looking for in my head to discribe it. Except unlike the real world where monopolies control production in RS it would be who hold the items.

 

Say i was Mr Rich and i wanted to buy 100Mil worth of pure ess i beleive if there was no limits it would HELP the economy. Because being super rich I know that if i bought 100mil Pure ess the demand for them would only remain high as long as i hold the supply of them. So if i was to dump like the merch clans do, i would be killing my PERSONAL profits so i would never do that.

 

So me holding a large supply and releasing small ammounts overtime (much like a real life monopoly - the Diamond industry) I would be putting more money back into the economy by continuously buying out the supply of ess and causing the people who mine ess to be making more money, to in turn buy more things. (yes i know people complain about inflation now adays but unless i had Trillions of GP it wouldnt deflate gp's value and would increase pure ess miners income per hour)

 

So i would say having a monopoly on the sale of an item helps people, unlike in the real world where monopolies have a supply on production of items.

that wouldn't be "helping" the economy.

all it does it is benefit essence miners, at your personal harm and the harm of all essence buyers

that would be creating a false demand, and it is 100% unhealthy.

 

 

Rules of thumb:

if you're doing the economy a favor, you're probably making a profit.

if you're making a profit, it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing the economy a favor.

if you're making a loss, it almost always means you're doing the economy is a disservice.

[Logdotzip]

wooooopsies