Dungeoneering: Bindery

[xpx]

That's incorrect. There are now many possibilities for bind combinations, due in no small part to the surgebox and complete arsenal of tier 11 weapons/armor (the latter is obvious, of course).

Having two ammo binds means you can keep a hexhunter AND mage those warriors easily. That's what I was pointing out.

 

Still though, with all the melee weapon binding possibilities, there are lots of variations in the dg metagame.

That would be true if either mage or range were the most dominant combat class, which i don't think they are, thus a good balance of melee/mage hybrids(with CSB) and melee/range hybrids(with HHB) is likely the most effective strategy. As for bindery, i think, as time goes along and we get more binds(possibly 5 binds at 120 dg), people will realise the importance of offensive binds and shy away from defensive binds- the best melee/mage hybrid would have SSH, rapier, blood neck, golden prec brace, prim boots and CSB while the best melee/range hybrid would have SSH, HHB, Prim 2h, sagit body, blood neck and sagit arrows(p++). Keyer binds would still stay more defense oriented.

[Quyneax]

That would be true if either mage or range were the most dominant combat class, which i don't think they are, thus a good balance of melee/mage hybrids(with CSB) and melee/range hybrids(with HHB) is likely the most effective strategy. As for bindery, i think, as time goes along and we get more binds(possibly 5 binds at 120 dg), people will realise the importance of offensive binds and shy away from defensive binds- the best melee/mage hybrid would have SSH, rapier, blood neck, golden prec brace, prim boots and CSB while the best melee/range hybrid would have SSH, HHB, Prim 2h, sagit body, blood neck and sagit arrows(p++). Keyer binds would still stay more defense oriented.

I agree, though I don't know about primal boots. I'd still take primal plate over it.

[Youmu]

From a f2p perspective though (where combat styles actually matter), binding hybrid styles is a must, if you wish to use range or mage at all. That is because you cannot create those items through normal means, which obviously puts f2p dg in a disadvantage. With double ammo binds, this would be a great benefit for people that can use 3 or more item binds (spear, longbow+arrows, firestaff+box). In p2p it would also be a help, for specific monsters/bosses that are weak to either range or mage (Necrolord, runebound behemoth). Though I guess bloodragers takes care of that problem...

 

I also agree that offensive binds would be a better choice with more binding slots. Is there a lot of difference between having a platebody and no-arming all the way through? I can see why sagi body and primal boots are bound for (offensive bonus).

[xpx]

I agree, though I don't know about primal boots. I'd still take primal plate over it.

Well, i was looking for a setup that would have good extra bonuses for slash, magic and strength, it's also possible to replace the bracelet with prim gloves or use prim chain/skirt for good defense and magic attack.

[stonewall337]

I have primal plate, 2h, and SSH. Can't imagine a better setup really except maybe HHB. Now I'm more curious about ammo binds. If you have HHB are sag arrows always best?

[xpx]

I have primal plate, 2h, and SSH. Can't imagine a better setup really except maybe HHB. Now I'm more curious about ammo binds. If you have HHB are sag arrows always best?

Well i can't imagine HHB being worth it without good arrows, otherwise it'd just be an average bow. Also, the only other ammo bind really worth it would be surgebox, and switching between 3 classes just isn't as efficient(and you can only use ring for two of those classes).

 

Also, as you are saying you couldn't imagine a better setup, considering that you'd get a 4th bind for a quest and 5th for 120(assuming you get there), what would you bind? Defensive binds are mostly selfish and don't help the team out alot, where as offensive binds are geared toward being more useful for your team. Most people who have the same same setup as you(i think it's the most common setup at 100-113 right now) have already loaded their bind list with defensive binds(2/3) so from there on, binding primal legs/skirt would just be ridiculous.

[Blutters]

Actually I was also wondering if super poison on arrows made a significant difference? I can't remember if bosses are able to be poisoned or not although it's not like they're all there is to be ranged.

 

I have primal plate, 2h, and SSH. Can't imagine a better setup really except maybe HHB. Now I'm more curious about ammo binds. If you have HHB are sag arrows always best?

Well i can't imagine HHB being worth it without good arrows, otherwise it'd just be an average bow. Also, the only other ammo bind really worth it would be surgebox, and switching between 3 classes just isn't as efficient(and you can only use ring for two of those classes).

 

Also, as you are saying you couldn't imagine a better setup, considering that you'd get a 4th bind for a quest and 5th for 120(assuming you get there), what would you bind? Defensive binds are mostly selfish and don't help the team out alot, where as offensive binds are geared toward being more useful for your team. Most people who have the same same setup as you(i think it's the most common setup at 100-113 right now) have already loaded their bind list with defensive binds(2/3) so from there on, binding primal legs/skirt would just be ridiculous.

Would defensive binds not be best until you are actually able to find a HHB?

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

i would just the highest grade of spear i can use and surge box.

hood if i ever find one.

 

i think the the amount of 125 ammo is off.

it would depend on the sise of the dungeon.

small: 125

medium: 250

large: 375

or something like that.

 

after all whats the point haveing the same amount of runes/arrows for a dungeion and one thats 4 times bigger?

 

or another posible option is to make every time you get a new bind (level 50 etc) you get an extra 50 added to your posible ammo bind pile, up to 325 ammo at 120 dunge.

 

now i never want range or mage NOT have to make ammo, but man give them some room to move, melee can finish an entire dungeion with zero use of any disposeible items (besdies food and keys obviusly).

 

a simple option (well, its more of a side option that would work best added with one of the abouve) is to make monsters drop more runes/arrows.

that way rangers and magers might still have a limited amount at the start but can still keep going for a while longer if they kill enough things.

[TheAncient]

sagg arrows apparently make a huge difference, like 10% or something

[stonewall337]

I have primal plate, 2h, and SSH. Can't imagine a better setup really except maybe HHB. Now I'm more curious about ammo binds. If you have HHB are sag arrows always best?

Well i can't imagine HHB being worth it without good arrows, otherwise it'd just be an average bow. Also, the only other ammo bind really worth it would be surgebox, and switching between 3 classes just isn't as efficient(and you can only use ring for two of those classes).

 

Also, as you are saying you couldn't imagine a better setup, considering that you'd get a 4th bind for a quest and 5th for 120(assuming you get there), what would you bind? Defensive binds are mostly selfish and don't help the team out alot, where as offensive binds are geared toward being more useful for your team. Most people who have the same same setup as you(i think it's the most common setup at 100-113 right now) have already loaded their bind list with defensive binds(2/3) so from there on, binding primal legs/skirt would just be ridiculous.

According to Andrews_calcs, primal legs reduce damage by roughly half of what you would have taken w/o them, while BN speeds up a floor by at most 1 minute, and factoring in food saved which can be shared, etc. It seems to be more a matter of preference then any real "help"

[xpx]

According to Andrews_calcs, primal legs reduce damage by roughly half of what you would have taken w/o them, while BN speeds up a floor by at most 1 minute, and factoring in food saved which can be shared, etc. It seems to be more a matter of preference then any real "help"

Primal legs in addition to primal plate? I'm VERY doubtful of that figure, further considering legs have the same strengths as plate(and you barely get hit by melee or range with plate). Also, good luck maging with prim plate+legs. Also, before you can get your hands on great offensive binds(like HHB, blood neck) you could bind cele staff to be more effective maging, that is, assuming, you are fine with the damage you are taking(and it takes skill to not use much food no-arming, alot of soul splitting).

[Troacctid]

Actually I was also wondering if super poison on arrows made a significant difference? I can't remember if bosses are able to be poisoned or not although it's not like they're all there is to be ranged.

Since there's no real downside to poisoning them, I don't see much reason not to.

[stonewall337]

According to Andrews_calcs, primal legs reduce damage by roughly half of what you would have taken w/o them, while BN speeds up a floor by at most 1 minute, and factoring in food saved which can be shared, etc. It seems to be more a matter of preference then any real "help"

Primal legs in addition to primal plate? I'm VERY doubtful of that figure, further considering legs have the same strengths as plate(and you barely get hit by melee or range with plate). Also, good luck maging with prim plate+legs. Also, before you can get your hands on great offensive binds(like HHB, blood neck) you could bind cele staff to be more effective maging, that is, assuming, you are fine with the damage you are taking(and it takes skill to not use much food no-arming, alot of soul splitting).

Not halfing the damage compared to plate, half the damage in addition, so you'll take half the damage you would have with neither of them.

[jettrider]

Offensive binds are good for 4 binds but with 5 binds the additional combat speed would be getting negligible versus the platebody's versatility (meaning, nonkeyers in perm teams could do it but people who might have to step in to key have a choice). Also, I've always just taken my armor off to mage, so it wouldn't be that big of a deal with plate+legs? Unless you think the tick to take off armor wouldn't be worth it

[SirIzenhime]

Primal legs in addition to primal plate? I'm VERY doubtful of that figure, further considering legs have the same strengths as plate(and you barely get hit by melee or range with plate). Also, good luck maging with prim plate+legs. Also, before you can get your hands on great offensive binds(like HHB, blood neck) you could bind cele staff to be more effective maging, that is, assuming, you are fine with the damage you are taking(and it takes skill to not use much food no-arming, alot of soul splitting).

 

Unless you plan on making fire runes every dungeon, wouldn't an Empowered fire be better then cele? Considering your main mage targets have little to no magic defense...even negative (warriors), maging with a plate on is hardly an issue. With legs it'd be pushing it...but just removing your body for a few casts doesn't even interrupt your combat cycle.

Would making a dungeon go by, at the most, 1 minute faster be more beneficial to having a few extra pieces of food left for people every dungeon? (serious question, I have no idea. I don't rush at all :P)

[jettrider]

Unless you plan on making fire runes every dungeon, wouldn't an Empowered fire be better then cele? Considering your main mage targets have little to no magic defense...even negative (warriors), maging with a plate on is hardly an issue. With legs it'd be pushing it...but just removing your body for a few casts doesn't even interrupt your combat cycle.

Would making a dungeon go by, at the most, 1 minute faster be more beneficial to having a few extra pieces of food left for people every dungeon? (serious question, I have no idea. I don't rush at all :P)

 

Dungeons are all over the place, sometimes no one has any food, sometimes you leave hundreds of eels on the ground.

 

Generally, your need for food decreases as the average skill level (as in dungeoneering skill) of your team increases. But even there you're going to have those obelisk-merc-mono-deathtrapGD dungeons where food is tight.

[SirIzenhime]

Unless you plan on making fire runes every dungeon, wouldn't an Empowered fire be better then cele? Considering your main mage targets have little to no magic defense...even negative (warriors), maging with a plate on is hardly an issue. With legs it'd be pushing it...but just removing your body for a few casts doesn't even interrupt your combat cycle.

Would making a dungeon go by, at the most, 1 minute faster be more beneficial to having a few extra pieces of food left for people every dungeon? (serious question, I have no idea. I don't rush at all :P)

 

Dungeons are all over the place, sometimes no one has any food, sometimes you leave hundreds of eels on the ground.

 

Generally, your need for food decreases as the average skill level (as in dungeoneering skill) of your team increases. But even there you're going to have those obelisk-merc-mono-deathtrapGD dungeons where food is tight.

 

I'm sorry...but I honestly don't know how that was supposed to answer my question....

[jettrider]

Unless you plan on making fire runes every dungeon, wouldn't an Empowered fire be better then cele? Considering your main mage targets have little to no magic defense...even negative (warriors), maging with a plate on is hardly an issue. With legs it'd be pushing it...but just removing your body for a few casts doesn't even interrupt your combat cycle.

Would making a dungeon go by, at the most, 1 minute faster be more beneficial to having a few extra pieces of food left for people every dungeon? (serious question, I have no idea. I don't rush at all :P)

 

Dungeons are all over the place, sometimes no one has any food, sometimes you leave hundreds of eels on the ground.

 

Generally, your need for food decreases as the average skill level (as in dungeoneering skill) of your team increases. But even there you're going to have those obelisk-merc-mono-deathtrapGD dungeons where food is tight.

 

I'm sorry...but I honestly don't know how that was supposed to answer my question....

 

Your answer is that on most maps you do not need the extra pieces of food, but you can't guarantee that your team will not run out of food sometimes.

 

So binding a blood necklace is a good choice but if no one on a warped floor has any armor you might run low.

[SirIzenhime]

oh, I get it.

So you're saying it's situational, which makes sense

[TheAncient]

with cele cat staff, magic is comparable to primal 2h (without turmoil) in overall damage

 

cele cat staff also gives you a ~+20 magic defense bonus

 

but overall i think it's a terrible bind. plate is better.

[SirIzenhime]

does the magic attack bonus make they much of a difference? I thought fire surge with empowered fire did more than air surge with cele

[TheAncient]

does the magic attack bonus make they much of a difference? I thought fire surge with empowered fire did more than air surge with cele

 

yeah it does... but why bind a empowered fire when its so easy to make one lol. just wait til you find good logs and make it

 

and i don't think magic attack bonus makes a big difference. 80%-90% of your damage should come from melee; the only time you need mage is against specific opponents which are already mage weak and sometimes bosses. i don't think thats enough to warrant not having a plate bind

[SirIzenhime]

I wasn't arguing that, I was comparing an empowered fire bind vs and cele cat bind

[TheAncient]

I wasn't arguing that, I was comparing an empowered fire bind vs and cele cat bind

 

oh lol. well then the main point of comparison is whether or not you have the extra ess and time to make fire runes (or pick them up), and if that extra 20% damage is worth it. i think cat staff is better because without fires, you're only ~10% weaker but with fires youre 20% stronger. the 10% doesnt make a huge difference on targets w low mage defense, but with catstaff you always have the option to go for more power.

[Sir_Squab]

If you WERE binding a staff, I'd definitely have to say celestial. That being said, I think binding a staff is dumb; get your stats up (like I'm doing, got my rc close enough to leveling that penguins will finish it) so that you can make empowered fire staffs. Saves you the hassle of fire runes, and you can use the bind on something more useful. SSH, Plate, etc.

 

Still gotta get fletch up...still, RC should make that look like a breeze.