A Loss of Discretion

[Chayliel]

Basically, Runescape players have completely lost any degree of discretion and integrity in voicing their opinions with regard to updates that Jagex announces or implements. Along with this, those opinions lose much of their cohesion and validity. For example, when Jagex announces an update, the recent free trade rollback poll in mind, players erupt into a frenzy of generally unnecessary and incoherent rants. Citing the recent TIP Times articles, you see tidbits such as quotes made by Jagex 3 years ago addressing the decision to remove free trade in combating RWT, and how Jagex is performing a 180 on everything they've done to stop RWT. Responding to this, we also get players rallying in posts that tell us we'll be at square one with the reimplementation of free trade. Those being the more coherent arguments, the rest consist of bashing and vulgarity and are generally ignored.

 

So getting to the point, logic would lead us to believe that Jagex is actually telling us a lot of good has come over these 3 years, not that the amount of time it's been really matters. Free trade was removed to limit and extinguish RWT while Jagex worked at reducing it as much as possible. The fact they're reintroducing free trade, or considering it rather, tells us that since 2007, Jagex has become efficient enough in detection and removal that limitations are literally no longer needed. We're so far beyond "square one" at this point, even with free trade, everyone should be happy. Jagex isn't pulling a 180, they're moving forward.

 

To be blunt, I don't see the problem with the poll either, phase one or two. The options are very clear cut honestly, and you're not required to vote. So, maybe Jagex likes to implement a couple useless stunts here and there, why complain about it? It's like complaining when a commercial you dislike comes on DURING the allotted time for commercials during a program. There's absolutely no sense in it all.

 

Addressing wilderness-located activities considered "safe" post-2007, Jagex is working on tweaking many activities to accommodate a dangerous wilderness as well.

 

Essentially, there's really nothing to blow up on. Frankly most arguments against Jagex can be dismantled within a few minutes.. I don't know. Take note I'm not typing this up as a rant, it's just a few observations about current events and how people are handling them, where most signs are pointing to "not well." I'm just wondering if anyone's on the same page, or has a different opinion, or a different defense, or take on the matter. I think Runescape's future is about as bright as ever, but only if we make it that way. Negative outlooks tend to produce negative outcomes. I'm not saying it's everyone doing it either, pretty much just the individuals representative of the forums. So, shoot, because while this topic focuses on the free trade poll, the phenomenon applies to so much more!

[J35u5_M4]

I think you're right, I also think that JaGeX is giving free trade and wilderness back because they have upgraded their skills to detect RWT and such, that as you said, the need for the restrictions is not needed anymore...

 

Good to know someone thinks alike.

[Dragonlordjl]

I still refuse to believe they're doing this out of good will.

[Chayliel]

Even if they were looking to make a quick buck, though, there aren't a whole lot of arguments that can confirm, without a doubt, bringing back free trade and the wilderness would act negatively for the whole of Runescape. Even the better looking arguments I've seen are based on the assumption Runescape will simply have reverted to the state it was in 2007, whereas Jagex has made advancements such that they can remove current limitations, acknowledging the probable influx of RWT. If RWT was losing money for Jagex to start, and they're confident they can keep a leash on the problem such that revenue will probably remain unaffected even with free trade, obviously we have something to look forward to in terms of how far Jagex has come since 2007. Otherwise, the "quick buck" Jagex is trying to make wouldn't even matter.

[Ts_Stormrage]

To be blunt, I don't see the problem with the poll either, phase one or two. The options are very clear cut honestly, and you're not required to vote. So, maybe Jagex likes to implement a couple useless stunts here and there, why complain about it? It's like complaining when a commercial you dislike comes on DURING the allotted time for commercials during a program. There's absolutely no sense in it all.

 

My problem with the poll is that its obvious to anyone with half a brain that someone dropped the ball, or worse, someone intended for the first phase (version) to be the real deal...

If someone dropped the ball, then Jagex should not act like it was intentional, but they do... So,if it was supposed to be the real deal, then we know who Jagex is looking at for support these days, don't we? People who are willing to cheat to get the things they want...

 

Fact remains, 1.2m votes in 24 hours vs. 835k votes in 9 days... We all know how those first million of votes got into the "petition"...

[Hajutze]

Fact remains, 1.2m votes in 24 hours vs. 835k votes in 9 days... We all know how those first million of votes got into the "petition"...

Not to mention that a part of those 835k votes aren't legitimate as well.

[langer]

It's pretty hard to believe Jagex when they say they have the best bot detection in-game and that they are confident they can control that problem...If they do right now, why are there that many botters at this moment? Bots have already killed some training methods and made legitimate players have to change their gameplay in order to accomodate botters... now throw in some gold farmers in the equation and you get legitimate players get screwed again.

 

Aside from telling me botting is not a problem, not unethical and so on, how can we believe Jagex will deal with this issue?

[The Observer]

The problem comes from those players that joined rather recently into the game and haven't been able to experience it before all of this was removed, so it's difficult for those people to grasp the real pros and cons of each side. Don't forget the GE had a major impact on trading, so much so that players have become accustomed to it. I was a fan of it during the release because of its ease of use.

 

I have had the benefit of being a part of the game since long before then, so I can securely say what side I want to be on. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one is more right than the other, I'm just saying that people need to experience both sides before they jump to conclusions.

 

I was originally skeptical because I wasn't aware of any changes made to the botting/RWT issue (I assumed that they would abandon that issue entirely), but as they said, they have new detection technologies so might as well see how it works out. After all, if they're confident in their software, then we should have at least some confidence in it too.

[Myweponsg00d]

The problem you are speaking of seems to be a growing problem with society in general. It seems people these days are declining in their literacy skills. I blame technology, texting, etc. Writing used to be something that people actually put thought into. But now, people are writing pages of text per day in discussion formats where they do not put a whole lot of thought into their composition.

[Arthu]

It's pretty hard to believe Jagex when they say they have the best bot detection in-game and that they are confident they can control that problem...If they do right now, why are there that many botters at this moment? Bots have already killed some training methods and made legitimate players have to change their gameplay in order to accomodate botters... now throw in some gold farmers in the equation and you get legitimate players get screwed again.

 

They might have one of the best bot detection in-game, but they also might have limited resources for controlling the problem. Bots can collect money for 100 hours straight, even more if not reported, and that's enough to make it worthwhile (and annoy legit players).

 

They're not going to backtrack every player's movements (there's 100k people playing right now!) and possible bottage, they'll usually only check what they can from people who have been reported to bot.

 

Therefore, how useless it seems, if you don't want bots, go and report some when you see some. It'll not cause instant ban, but it'll help Jagex fight bots, and therefore you, as well.

 

Just my 2½ cents, some "facts" Ive stated might not be facts, but you should see some idea: Jagex can't control everything with no delay. Even with delay, they can't control everything.

[Doomster]

I hope the suggestion that only "players in good standing" will be able to have free trade / open PvP turms out to be true.

 

And also, hope they retain some revenant worlds, as in the case of trying to use the wildy without PvPing, 1st preference would be finding an open PvP world with no opposition, 2nd choice, facing down the revenants, 3rd choice, facing down actual PvPers

[money123678]

So getting to the point, logic would lead us to believe that Jagex is actually telling us a lot of good has come over these 3 years, not that the amount of time it's been really matters. Free trade was removed to limit and extinguish RWT while Jagex worked at reducing it as much as possible. The fact they're reintroducing free trade, or considering it rather, tells us that since 2007, Jagex has become efficient enough in detection and removal that limitations are literally no longer needed. We're so far beyond "square one" at this point, even with free trade, everyone should be happy. Jagex isn't pulling a 180, they're moving forward.

 

While yes, that would seem to be the logical conclusion to come to, the fact remains that it has yet to be shown that Jagex has become efficient enough in the detection of and removal of RWT. There are still tons of bots at many areas, LRC and Green Dragons being to examples. There are also many active websites and services that has others training the accounts for you in exchange of real world money, upon which we also have no statistics showing whether or not there has been any improvements of detection and removal. Also, As the post above me states, even if they have the best bot detection software possible, you would still see a delay in the amount of time from the bots collecting resources to when they are banned, which is clearly long enough for the bots to achieve their goals, or else they wouldn't be used anymore.

 

Secondly, while reporting bots may help a tiny bit, we can tell from the given track record of from when a report is sent to when action is taken place that it generally takes at least a day for the report to have any action taken, and if everyone reported all the bots, that would just overflow the people responding to those reports, thereby making it take even longer for action to occur.

 

To be blunt, I don't see the problem with the poll either, phase one or two. The options are very clear cut honestly, and you're not required to vote. So, maybe Jagex likes to implement a couple useless stunts here and there, why complain about it? It's like complaining when a commercial you dislike comes on DURING the allotted time for commercials during a program. There's absolutely no sense in it all.

 

You don't see the problem with the poll? While phase two may be decently well planned, the first one was horribly planned and implemented. As said by Ts_Stormrage,

 

Fact remains, 1.2m votes in 24 hours vs. 835k votes in 9 days... We all know how those first million of votes got into the "petition"...

 

If you don't see the problem there I really don't think there is much I could do to help you.

 

Addressing wilderness-located activities considered "safe" post-2007, Jagex is working on tweaking many activities to accommodate a dangerous wilderness as well.

 

Essentially, there's really nothing to blow up on. Frankly most arguments against Jagex can be dismantled within a few minutes.. I don't know. Take note I'm not typing this up as a rant, it's just a few observations about current events and how people are handling them, where most signs are pointing to "not well." I'm just wondering if anyone's on the same page, or has a different opinion, or a different defense, or take on the matter. I think Runescape's future is about as bright as ever, but only if we make it that way. Negative outlooks tend to produce negative outcomes. I'm not saying it's everyone doing it either, pretty much just the individuals representative of the forums. So, shoot, because while this topic focuses on the free trade poll, the phenomenon applies to so much more!

 

To be quite honest, this is a part that I agree with you on. We'll have to see how they implement each individual thing to be able to discuss those, so there's no use in worrying about them now. Also, it's was clear how the poll was going to turn out before they even enacted part two, so there's no use in "blowing up" on it either. We won't be able to change it. Really the best use of our time would be spent trying to think up appropriate and balanced suggestions on how to include the post 2007 wilderness activities, along with the other things that will have to be adapted such as the G.E, and finally, while I doubt we will be able to come up with something, someway to more effectively fight botting and RWT.

 

--Edited Final Sentence to expand on possible topics of help.

[Silmandra]

I think you're right, I also think that JaGeX is giving free trade and wilderness back because they have upgraded their skills to detect RWT and such, that as you said, the need for the restrictions is not needed anymore...

 

Good to know someone thinks alike.

 

Lies. They said they improved their skills to combat or detevt bots and they havent.

[Bladewing]

I think you're right, I also think that JaGeX is giving free trade and wilderness back because they have upgraded their skills to detect RWT and such, that as you said, the need for the restrictions is not needed anymore...

 

Good to know someone thinks alike.

 

Lies. They said they improved their skills to combat or detevt bots and they havent.

proof?

[Silmandra]

They have improved but not eniugh, because there still are bots.

 

They admitted they will never totally win with botting. But they say they can deal with rwt? That's bs, seriously.

 

Rwt is more bots. This won't help.

[Bladewing]

so you do agree that jagex have improved their bot catching techniques, glad we sorted that out.

 

also,

 

one could argue that rwting = less botting, since if you want to make a pure with dragon claws you could just buy 30m instead of running your bot at chins.

[Silmandra]

Less people bot for themselves..

More people bot for irl money.

 

Botting for yourself will still be better because you get reset and you get 30m for free and you won't get banned for buying gold..

 

That's how they work.. Actually I don't know what they will do to your acc if you buy money but it's against the rules.

[1wngedangel]

They might have one of the best bot detection in-game, but they also might have limited resources for controlling the problem. Bots can collect money for 100 hours straight, even more if not reported, and that's enough to make it worthwhile (and annoy legit players).They're not going to backtrack every player's movements (there's 100k people playing right now!) and possible bottage, they'll usually only check what they can from people who have been reported to bot.Therefore, how useless it seems, if you don't want bots, go and report some when you see some. It'll not cause instant ban, but it'll help Jagex fight bots, and therefore you, as well.Just my 2½ cents, some "facts" Ive stated might not be facts, but you should see some idea: Jagex can't control everything with no delay. Even with delay, they can't control everything.

Not really how bot detection works, or at least not how jagex should be doing it. When you have computers, there isn't a reason for an actual person to have to sift through reports before assigning a ban; bans should be assigned through automation, and then actual people should check the evidence to determine whether the ban was just or not. Granted I don't have enough knowledge or experience with how jagex deals with bots to tell you this is how they do it, but it is the most logical approach when time is a key factor in preventing botting.

 

I am almost in complete agreement with the OP; people are freaking out for no reason. RWT is still a bannable offense, and botting is an instant permaban. People aren't going to be able to get traded millions of gold for nothing in-game without attracting attention, same as before. Yes botting was pretty rampant prior to the trade restriction update, but anyone who says that bringing free trade back will "ruin the game" is over-reacting. I enjoyed playing for several years before trade restrictions were imposed, and have enjoyed playing afterwards as well. For all the ranting people do about bots, they don't have such a profound effect on the game that it becomes unplayable or even unenjoyable. Sure skilling will be less profitable, but that isn't really because of botting; risk-free money making will always be less rewarding than activities that involve risk. Besides, I can't remember a time past midway through rs1 that you could make a legitimate profit through skilling anyway (outside of high level rc).

[Sir_Squab]

I still refuse to believe they're doing this out of good will.

 

Selfish benefit benefits all of society. Or in this case Jagex looking for more income benefits all of runescape.

 

Capitalism 101

 

Hahaha.... I'll agree in this case, selfishness benefits people - Jagex brings back free trade/wilde, they get more members, we get free trade/wilde. I disagree with that theory though... but that's beside the point and shouldn't be discussed here >.<

 

Frankly, I have a wait and see attitude towards it all. We have a lot of new weapons, much more powerful, as well as a lot of content in the wilderness. Jagex has said they will address this, relocate stuff, etc. Until I see how they implement it, I can't criticize or praise how they've done it. However, considering in like half an hour I can think of a solution to almost all of those issues, I think it would be unfair to say Jagex can't deal with them well.

 

and botting is an instant permaban.

 

No, it isn't. Current punishment for botting includes your levels being reset; your items, particularly items you gain whilst botting might be reset/removed too, but I'm less sure of that. Perm-banning is still A punishment, but it won't necessarily happen.

 

The problem you are speaking of seems to be a growing problem with society in general. It seems people these days are declining in their literacy skills. I blame technology, texting, etc. Writing used to be something that people actually put thought into. But now, people are writing pages of text per day in discussion formats where they do not put a whole lot of thought into their composition.

 

Doubt it. I think it's just that with the internet, it's a lot easier for less intelligent and literate people to write up and post stuff somewhere. Back say 20 years ago, to get a lot of people to read something you'd have to get it in the paper or publish a book, or be on TV. Now, you just need a blog. Besides, one thing I love thinking about: take a teenager. "Sup dude? How's it hanging?" (To a friend.) "Hey, how are you doing today?" (To, say, their grandparents.)

 

"wanna chil l8er?" "ya. cming at 8" (texting.)

 

"As you can see, the long-term implications of this action are..." (In a school essay.)

 

People just CARE less about these kinds of things on the internet. Have you ever seen someone with poor grammar/punctuation/spelling excuse said grammar/punctuation/spelling with the excuse that "this isn't school"?

 

I love people going "back in the day it was better, back in the day THIS didn't happen"

 

It probably WASN'T better back in the day, and chances are THIS happened. Whatever THIS is.

 

No offense, that last bit was just a general comment.

[Normalize]

We pay to pk, that simple.

[Range_This11]

I really see no problem with how the voting has been implemented. It's similar to ballot initiatives in states like California. All you need to put an initiative on the ballot for the people to vote on is to get one million signatures on a petition from registered voters. Then, during the next election (either presidential or mid-term) the people vote yes or no on the initiative. The yes/no/don't care voting stage we are in now shows that the players want this and I think it's great that Jagex decided to let their players make the decision. No one is closer to their game than the players are.

[All_Is_Great]

Fact remains, 1.2m votes in 24 hours vs. 835k votes in 9 days... We all know how those first million of votes got into the "petition"...

Not to mention that a part of those 835k votes aren't legitimate as well.

 

Considering one only needs around 17k votes to get an accurate view of the whole runescape population, unless 820k votes were "illegitimate", I'd say the poll is good.