Efficiency Trolls

[TheAncient]

Butthen you run into the issue of letting people give ridiculously bad advice and reasoning.

You must call someone stupid in order to be "right" or make a point? :blink:

No. I've already made my points. I call someone stupid because they don't understand what I'm saying.

[Nifflin]

Butthen you run into the issue of letting people give ridiculously bad advice and reasoning.

Which hurts the OP if they have no way to tell which advice is good and which is bad.

 

Edit: Arguing with idiots on the internet isn't fun for anybody, but since there is no quality control in H&A, it has to be done. If it isn't then there is a chance that the OP of the question will go with the bad advice.

 

Solution to arguments in H&A; knowledgeable, trustworthy people be given the power to hide posts that offer bad advice to step into an argument and make it clear that bad advice is bad.

 

I can tell that some mods Quyneax are tempted to do this at times but cannot because it is not an official policy.

[Sy_Accursed]

The way I see it certain users have an issue in which they flame people who disagree but never actually disprove the info they claim is wrong and then half way through the argument reveal a detail tht would of prevented the whole argument if they'd of posted it in the first place.

 

The compromise to make things all happy is:

1) Make sure posts are clear many of the "efficiency trolls" miss details out because "everyone should know them"; but its help & advice people post there because they DON'T know. I don't mean everything needs to be explained in every post but for example if your argument/statement is based on the fact that x may cost more than y, but in the time saved u re-make the money and more say that; don;t just say its better with no explanation.

2) If you can't reasonably disprove someone's advice don't flame them.

3) Don't start getting snappy and rude because someone questions your advice, just answer the question. Most people ask further questions to learn not to be rude or to disagree.

[TheAncient]

Butthen you run into the issue of letting people give ridiculously bad advice and reasoning.

Which hurts the OP if they have no way to tell which advice is good and which is bad.

If the op can't see through my reasoning, theyre probably a lost cause anyway. What matters also is the other people reading the thread ad making sure they know what's right

[essiw]

Butthen you run into the issue of letting people give ridiculously bad advice and reasoning.

You could edit your last post and explain in there why you think your idea is better so the topic starter reads it (you could even colour it to make him notice it).

And then the other person will just repeat their statement as well. It needs to be obvious to the person you're trying to help exactly how ridiculous some of the other advice is, or they'll seriously consider ir

like jaffy said, the person you are helping on won't believe you more then the other person if you start calling the other person dumb. If you really want to help the person and see no other way you could sent him a pm.

[TheAncient]

Either way, the point is that a lot of people are just way too stupid to talk with on these forums. It's annoying and unproductive to deal with them. Maybe the way im handling it is wrong but a person can only have so much patience.

 

A person trying to find and offer good advice shouldn't have to put up with the bs that we do.

[Blyaunte]

I'm sorry, if I've made a clear effort to explain my reasoning and a clear effort to help you, and you're too thick or slow to understand my reasoning, how am I not supposed to call you dumb?

Because you know calling a fairy unicorn the d word makes for a huge flamewar? your are such a dumb person for not knowing that.

 

Fairy unicorn? :unsure:

[Blyaunte]

I'm sorry, if I've made a clear effort to explain my reasoning and a clear effort to help you, and you're too thick or slow to understand my reasoning, how am I not supposed to call you dumb?

Because you know calling a fairy unicorn the d word makes for a huge flamewar? your are such a dumb person for not knowing that.

I totally recognize that :)

But at some point I feel like im losing my sanity if I let idiocy slide...

 

I feel like I've made an effort to objectively state my reasoning. People just don't listen/ totally miss the point of what I'm saying.

 

... and here is, unfortunately, the crux of the biscuit: you can explain it to them, but you cannot understand it for them ...

[Jaffy1]

Either way, the point is that a lot of people are just way too stupid to talk with on these forums. It's annoying and unproductive to deal with them. Maybe the way im handling it is wrong but a person can only have so much patience.

 

A person trying to find and offer good advice shouldn't have to put up with the bs that we do.

 

If that's not a sweeping generalisation, nothing is.

I believe the clinical term for your condition is called "arrogance"

[TheAncient]

Either way, the point is that a lot of people are just way too stupid to talk with on these forums. It's annoying and unproductive to deal with them. Maybe the way im handling it is wrong but a person can only have so much patience.

 

A person trying to find and offer good advice shouldn't have to put up with the bs that we do.

 

If that's not a sweeping generalisation, nothing is.

I believe the clinical term for your condition is called "arrogance"

 

Sure. And like I've explained before this cycle of frustration is exactly why we have such an issue on these boards. Since years of arguing have been unproductive, don't you think it's time for the mods to consider a serious change?

[Sy_Accursed]

Either way, the point is that a lot of people are just way too stupid to talk with on these forums. It's annoying and unproductive to deal with them. Maybe the way im handling it is wrong but a person can only have so much patience.

 

A person trying to find and offer good advice shouldn't have to put up with the bs that we do.

 

If that's not a sweeping generalisation, nothing is.

I believe the clinical term for your condition is called "arrogance"

 

Sure. And like I've explained before this cycle of frustration is exactly why we have such an issue on these boards. Since years of arguing have been unproductive, don't you think it's time for the mods to consider a serious change?

 

Like warning, banning and suspending the arrogant trolls like yourself who start the flame wars by resorting to rudeness because they cant be bothered to try rewording or re-explaining something because OBVIOUSLY they way they wrote it must make sense to everyone?

[TheAncient]

Objectively:

 

When did I troll in this? Do you know what trolling really means?

Up until the last 5 posts I made, when did I call people stupid?

When did I not try REPEATEDLY to make my points?

How have I not made effort?

 

Like, seriously? This is the kind of bs I'm talking about.

[Sy_Accursed]

I never said u did it in this thread, but by your own admission you do it in other threads.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Either way, the point is that a lot of people are just way too stupid to talk with on these forums. It's annoying and unproductive to deal with them. Maybe the way im handling it is wrong but a person can only have so much patience.

 

A person trying to find and offer good advice shouldn't have to put up with the bs that we do.

 

If that's not a sweeping generalisation, nothing is.

I believe the clinical term for your condition is called "arrogance"

Don't be naive, this is runescape.

[TheAncient]

I never said u did it in this thread, but by your own admission you do it in other threads.

 

But the majority of the time I post, I post in the style that I do in this thread. If you see me in help and advice most of the time I don't say "OH YOURE DUMB DO THIS", I just offer plain advice.

 

People have selective memory. The posts that you remember most from me are probably also the ones in which I'm most arrogant.

[Noxx]

 

[hide=Tl dr version of above post]Basically, start respecting people's views, answer their questions if they ask, come with suggestions if they ask, but if they don't ask and clearly aren't interested in efficiency, just leave them be and answer what they do want to know.

 

Quit the tunnel vision and show others some respect.[/hide]

Well done. I must say. You managed to show a lot of respect towards Efficiency Beasts by calling them disrespectfull and Tunnel Visioned. Bravo =D>

 

Very few users clearly specify that they do not want the most efficient way to train x skill when posting in H&A which leaves Efficiency Beasts to only assume they are looking for the best (the best being the most efficient). Not answering the question to the best of their abilities ("their" being the efficiency beasts) would show a total lack of respect to the OP by insulting his ability to play the most efficient way. Unless they specify clearly and directly then we can only be left to assume whatever we want.

I believe you're misunderstanding what I'm referring to.

Perhaps you should read the posts in the thread I linked to, because if you had you should see that several posts, after the OP had noted that he wasn't interested in anything but what he asked, are anything but respectful. It is that kind of posters my quote is directed at. He asked one simple question yet was given an answer to an entirely different question. When he noted he wasn't interested in that, several people felt the need to troll. It is thát kind of "efficiency troll" I am referring to, not the regular efficient player that does act respectful, because they aren't trolls. <_<

 

 

 

This isn't an issue of respecting someones view. Its an issue of people trying to claim that A is objectively better than B when it clearly isn't the case from all measurable variables. B may damn well be funner than A for you, so go do it, we wont stop you and we don't care how you train. We do care when you go and try to claim that because B was a fun way for you to train that it makes it the best way to train.

 

Like I said, "Better" is usually an opinion with regard to training methods like that.

Everyone will agree that rune armour is better than mithril in terms of defence, but when it comes to doing something a way someone finds more fun and may take more time than someone else's preferred method (or the other way around), that does not make one better than the other.

 

You say it's not an issue of respecting someone's view, yet comments like these do make me wonder if you respected the user that wanted to enchant air orbs.

Ps this isn't efficient trolololol.

Maybe you should be more specific next time before you put all the efficient players under the same blanket by making your post seem like a generalisation.

[Jaffy1]

Maybe you should be more specific next time before you put all the efficient players under the same blanket by making your post seem like a generalisation.

 

I never claimed all "efficient players" are "efficiency trolls"

It's also why I said this in my first post here, but I apologize if you missed that/it wasn't clear enough for you:

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

[green9090]

 

No, I'm pointing out that there are other definitions of efficient that go beyond someone's spreadsheet. For me, saving money in exchange of a lower xp/hr is more efficient than using all that food. My definition of efficient may not match yours, but that doesn't make it less viable. I'm not closed-minded because I have tried the max xp/hr method, found it to be too expensive AND just as long as the "slower" method due to the extra bank trips and decided that it wasn't the most efficient method for me. That doesn't make it wrong in general, just not right for me. If it works for you, then great. My way works for me, and whle it may not match your definition of efficient, it doesn't make it inefficient. It's just a different kind of efficiency.

 

Your definition of efficiency is wrong. You arent saving money for less exp/hr. The time you saved getting the higher exp/hr could have been used to make more money than you saved. And as noted before if you're going through that much food you are using inefficient healing methods or slaying techniques (such as prayer flashing). Just because you feel better about your particular way of training does not make it efficient. It makes it enjoyable for you. Efficient is not some abstract concept that can be applied to anything anyone does based on whether or not they feel good about what they are doing.

 

No it's not; Webster's New World Dictionary defines efficient as "producing the desired result with a minimum of effort, expense or waste." If something gets to be too much of an effort, too expensive or too wasteful, it no longer can be called "efficient". For me, using a lot of food is too expensive and wasteful, and therefore not efficient. Fastest is not always most efficient, no matter what you may want to think, especially if fast means wasting more than saving the slower way.

For example, I work at a hotel atm and my boss wants to get as much money as he can every night. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, as it is a business and he should be making money from it. The problem is, he often overlooks slower long-term profits in favor of faster short term profits, often to the detriment of customer service; he'll often screw our customers over for short-term gains and lose the long-term business from those people. As an example, I made a decision one night that lost us $300 for that night, but earned us over $1000 the following nights because a work crew was running late on a job and I didn't charge them for the no-show (which would have cancelled their reservations outright). In the long-term, that's far more efficient than just grabbing short-term gains. To put it in game terms, our $/night wasn't as high as it could have been, but our $/week was higher as a result.

I approach rs the same way; if a sacrifice of short-term gains means better long-term gains down the road, hell yea I'll do that. The food I would have wasted doing Slayer will serve me better during the difficult quest I'm trying to unlock or while gathering Charms for summoning, which to me is more efficient than using it to train a skill that I'm not even going to touch again until the next quest that requires it. Being efficient isn't about pigeonholing your personal definition and expecting everyone to conform to it, it's about finding the best way to do something for themselves. As I said in a previous post, I tried the fast way, it didn't match with what I consider to be efficient, therefore I found another way that is efficient for me. You may disagree, and that's your right to do so, but that doesn't make me wrong for doing things differently.

This is a great example of the kind of person who causes problems on H&A. It'd be one thing if he just said he doesn't like using food, but when he starts going on about how efficient he is saving food that takes 5 minutes to earn and wasting half an hour in return... It's essentially flamebait. When this kind of person gives advice on H&A, it HAS to turn into a flame war because they're essentially trying to convince people that wasting time and money is effective. When this kind of person asks for help, they'll just sit there trolling by assuming that people who have maxed the skill they're working know less about "long term gain" than they do.

 

You want efficiency trolling? It's this, right here.

[Rainy_Day]

I'm not altogether sure why people are posting in regards to other banned users here. This isn't the topic. Plus goading the forum staff in every post? The phrase "Grow up" comes to mind. If we are to take some of the "loudest" users seriously, they could take a leaf out of most member's books by posting properly.

 

If people wish to make a difference, make meaningful posts with detail, instead of insulting one another, or insulting the forum staff.

[green9090]

If you want to maintain a community, stop banning long-standing, well-liked users and then expecting everyone to just shrug and get on with life. This is getting ridiculous.

[Rainy_Day]

If you want to maintain a community, stop banning long-standing, well-liked users and then expecting everyone to just shrug and get on with life. This is getting ridiculous.

Not that I wish to be dragged too much into this, but every user, no matter how long they have been here, must follow the rules. It's unfair to ban a member for something who has been here for a month, and not ban a member for the same thing who has been here for a year. The rules apply to everyone, which some people don't seem to be understanding.

 

Edit: All further posts discussing another person's ban will be removed (then again it's only a couple doing this anyway).

[Rainy_Day]

lol @ Tip.it.Libya

 

Honestly, if a long standing user has commited an error - why not stick them with a warning?

If it's getting excessive, you can then mute them or in some way limit their posts to a specific section.

(I'm not sure if this was the case or not - but it seems like people were getting banned without prior knowledge/warnings)

We normally give our users a sufficient amount of warnings before we resort to banning, unless they've done something severe (posting malicious links/indecent images). So any bans placed would have had prior contact before the ban, linking them to rules/informing them of the error.

[Danqazmlp]

Edit: All further posts discussing another person's ban will be removed (then again it's only a couple doing this anyway).

 

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Considering the above, any further posts talking about moderator actions in this thread will lead to actions being taken against accounts. Enough warnings have been given. Unlocking this now.

[green9090]

[SirIzenhime]

inb4[cabbage]storm :thumbup: