Efficiency Trolls

[Metanoias]

This argument is pointless. Who are you to judge my, or another player's, enjoyment of the game? Just play to have fun, however that may be, and don't encroach on another player's fun. There is no right or wrong way to play RuneScape. That is all.

[green9090]

For example, people keep telling me that the best way to train Slayer is to get tasks from the highest level Slayer Master in order to get the fastest xp rate. I disagree because I can't justify spending that much money on food and gear just to train a skill I despise simply to do a quest or two. I'd rather go for the easier tasks that I don't have to invest any money or food into, even if it takes a little longer. Sure, I could go to Vannaka or Sumona, fight some dragons or killerwatts, spend a couple thousand gp on food (not to mention wasting time going back and forth from a bank to the nearest training spot), or I could skip all that, do a few more tasks of goblins and banshees and keep my cash to buy supplies for skills I actually enjoy, such as smithing or crafting. Personally, I find that to be far more efficient than simply getting the highest xp/hr.

:-|

 

You either don't know what efficient means, or don't have any understanding of opportunity cost whatsoever (and, by the sound of your post, you definitely don't want to learn anything, so I won't bother explaining it unless you ask). Needless to say, asking for help from knowledgeable players isn't going to help you at all, because you're convinced that your way of doing things is correct when in fact your method is inferior for reasons you can't be bothered to understand. That doesn't make the advice given to you bad, it makes you closed minded.

 

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

 

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice.

 

Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety.

The issue is when fun suggestions are presented as efficient advice. Saying that you like your CLS because it hits really high is... okay, I guess, but when you start explaining how CLS is BETTER, that shouldn't be okay. It confuses the facts and makes it more difficult for the OP to be sure what is actually true.

 

 

I agree completely. (See it's nice when people make constructive arguments from opposite ends of the discussion without resorting to flames, couldn't this carry over to H&A) At that stage they should just be ignored.

See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning.

 

But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

[Danqazmlp]

 

See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning.

 

But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

 

The problem is that warning somebody for being wrong is not the way things should work. Hell half of the users of the forum would be banned by now for posting wrong information at one point or another. Warning for being wrong is not in the rules and will never be. It is up to the more respectable users to be the 'bigger man' and walk away. If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know.

[xpx]

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

 

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice.

 

Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety.

If the H&A was setup the way you suggest it should the answer to a simple question of how to train strength would be:

 

A) push trough wheat on puro-puro

B) fish sharks without a harpoon

C) use a lava titan familiar

 

All of them correct, all of them fun in some sense(as it's so hard to gauge fun), but also all of them absolutely catastrophically useless for anyone with a brain. Do you see a problem here?

 

Advice should be given by experts who know of the proper way of doing things. Efficiency is that expertise.

 

As for the latter, i see nothing wrong with giggling at a 138 with ROL and bunyip at frost dragons claiming 80 KPH. We aren't hurting him in any way, just having fun.

 

If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know.

There comes a time and place where it's no longer sensible to explain every single detail that you'd expect everyone to already know. If you aren't as knowledgeable and don't thrive for the knowledge, then you just need to accept that and not try to chip in with your sub-par knowledge, which i believe should rightly be(or is) a reportable offense. The knowledge these few people have accumulated hasn't come overnight and certainly not by pissing off those more knowledgeable than we are. Learning is a virtue.

[green9090]

 

See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning.

 

But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

 

The problem is that warning somebody for being wrong is not the way things should work. Hell half of the users of the forum would be banned by now for posting wrong information at one point or another. Warning for being wrong is not in the rules and will never be. It is up to the more respectable users to be the 'bigger man' and walk away. If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know.

Brb telling people to train strength on cave slimes.

 

What? It's fun.

[Danqazmlp]

If the H&A was setup the way you suggest it should the answer to a simple question of how to train strength would be:

 

A) push trough wheat on puro-puro

B) fish sharks without a harpoon

C) use a lava titan familiar

 

All of them correct, all of them fun in some sense(as it's so hard to gauge fun), but also all of them absolutely catastrophically useless for anyone with a brain. Do you see a problem here?

 

Advice should be given by experts who know of the proper way of doing things. Efficiency is that expertise.

 

As for the latter, i see nothing wrong with giggling at a 138 with ROL and bunyip at frost dragons claiming 80 KPH. We aren't hurting him in any way, just having fun.

 

If you are going to be quoting me, please at least read the posts before it. It isn't realistic that a thread would get replies like that. As said in my last post before this, It is up to you to disprove their claim in a respectful manner. If it is all subjective, then post you're information and move on. If it is that much better, the OP will recognise it and do it.

 

As for your last point, I feel like banging my head upon a wall. That is almost the whole point of this thread. Why then if you laugh at somebody doing something in an inefficient way should I not laugh at somebody doing something in an efficient way? I'm not hurting them in any way, just having fun.

[Th e Doctor]

 

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person.

 

It doesn't matter what you're talking about or how sweetly you try to word things, as soon as the word "stupid" enters an argument, it's no longer a civil or respectful discussion. Words like "stupid", "moronic", "imbecile", etc. shouldn't have any place in a mature discussion and only serve to incite the other side into anger. Also, when you openly insult what someone does, whether it's their job, their shopping habits or the way they play games, they are going to take it personally, whether or not you meant it that way. You may not consider a person's actions to be representative of that person, but a lot of people use their actions to define themselves to others, and at the same time, they see how others act as definitive of the other person's identity.

 

And a persons inabilty to distinguish between their actions and theirself as a person is my fault how? And why does maturity mean that we can't call something that is not smart what it is? This is exactly the problem. We can't say things as they are because people get offended and call us trolls. It is far more likely that the maturity issue is on the half of those who can't take constructive criticism.

 

I'm sure at some obsenely low income levels (100 k/hr or something like that) ectoing could be considered more efficient because the time saved altaring couldn't be used to make enough money to justify the additional cost. But for most players (anyone who can pick mort myre fungi/harvest white berry spawns...no wait that's everyone) this is not the case.

 

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I highlighted the part that's relevant to why people don't like the efficiency crowd; it's little asides like the one bolded that makes average players hate efficiency proponents. There are tons of posts here from a lot of different members that include such asinine comments and snide remarks. I can almost see the efficiency proponents looking down their noses at everyone else, sniffing snidely at us and asking, "Why can't you just be more like us, you know, smart and efficient?" I'm not saying that is what happens, but that's how it feels to those of us who have received such treatment. Just like what I said earlier in this post, you can't use inflammatory language like that and expect people to not react to it. That's why most people get the impression - false or not - that the efficiency camp is a bunch of snobbish, elitist buffoons that can't see past their collections of numbers and realize there's more than one way to train effectively. For some people, "efficient" is more than just number crunching to get the best bottom line dividend. For example, people keep telling me that the best way to train Slayer is to get tasks from the highest level Slayer Master in order to get the fastest xp rate. I disagree because I can't justify spending that much money on food and gear just to train a skill I despise simply to do a quest or two. I'd rather go for the easier tasks that I don't have to invest any money or food into, even if it takes a little longer. Sure, I could go to Vannaka or Sumona, fight some dragons or killerwatts, spend a couple thousand gp on food (not to mention wasting time going back and forth from a bank to the nearest training spot), or I could skip all that, do a few more tasks of goblins and banshees and keep my cash to buy supplies for skills I actually enjoy, such as smithing or crafting. Personally, I find that to be far more efficient than simply getting the highest xp/hr.

[/hide]

 

What is snide about my comment about how relatively easy it is to make a decent sum on money for anyone who plays this game? We don't care if you're like us, we do care if you try to misinform players about what is efficient and what's not. I actually have better things to do than waste my time looking down my nose at people who purposefully train in inefficient ways, and if they are having fun I applaud them and then don't give them a second thought.

 

There is nothing inflammatory about stating that the vast majority of plays have access to mort myre funus picking...

 

And you don't find it efficient, you find it more enjoyable. And actually if you were to post in H&A about how to do these tasks you're wasting thousands of gp on you might find that we could identify a way for you to not use so much food and slay them...efficiently *shudders at how many times I've typed that word*.

 

This argument is pointless. Who are you to judge my, or another player's, enjoyment of the game? Just play to have fun, however that may be, and don't encroach on another player's fun. There is no right or wrong way to play RuneScape. That is all.

 

Way to not read or comment on anything this thread has discussed...

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning.

 

But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

 

The problem is that warning somebody for being wrong is not the way things should work. Hell half of the users of the forum would be banned by now for posting wrong information at one point or another. Warning for being wrong is not in the rules and will never be. It is up to the more respectable users to be the 'bigger man' and walk away. If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know.

Danq, the following statement is not intended as a flame or anything.

 

This is directed to the efficiency community.

How many of the "efficiency trolls" in the community would cite Danq as a major source of their frustrations, and likewise a major motivation to vent their frustrations on anti-trolls.

Raise your hand if you, both support efficiency and consider Danq to be a major instigator of efficiency based flame wars.

Not because he actually tries, but because Danq unwittingly says things that are horribly rude and patronizing.

 

And once again, my apologies Danq.

I would try to word this differently, but I'm sure we've already spoken on the matter far too many times in the past.

[green9090]

*raises hand*

[Danqazmlp]

 

See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning.

 

But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

 

The problem is that warning somebody for being wrong is not the way things should work. Hell half of the users of the forum would be banned by now for posting wrong information at one point or another. Warning for being wrong is not in the rules and will never be. It is up to the more respectable users to be the 'bigger man' and walk away. If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know.

Brb telling people to train strength on cave slimes.

 

What? It's fun.

 

Now that would be considered trolling as you know it would be bad advice.

 

At this stage I am giving up discussing this as we are going in circles, I thought we had almost reached a compromise but you decided to take your normal stand-offish approach. The system as it currently stands is that posting bad advice is not reportable. Posting bad advice with the knowledge it is bad is trolling and action would be taken against the account. If you disagree, you are welcome to follow the link in the current announcement regarding feedback on the moderation.

 

If nobody is willing to be more respectful and stop flaming each others views whenever it comes up, it is you're own fault said area of the forum may decline as we have done all we can to accommodate both camps.

[xpx]

As for your last point, I feel like banging my head upon a wall. That is almost the whole point of this thread. Why then if you laugh at somebody doing something in an inefficient way should I not laugh at somebody doing something in an efficient way? I'm not hurting them in any way, just having fun.

I have absolutely no problem with people making fun of me based on that. You also assume that everything that isn't efficient is inefficient, which really isn't true. It's common for people to laugh at stupidity in real life, but it's a serious offense to do so in rs? please...

 

And ofcource, grimy, i agree. As a mod danq should know better than to instigate heated debates on this soft subject, particularly as he can't take any sides(he is retired, likely looks down on people who do play based on some of what he does/says).

[green9090]

COMPROMISE? You thought we had almost reached a compromise? I'm sorry, do you know what that word means? Because from my angle it looked a lot like you were brick walling me by saying anyone can post bad advice whenever they want. But of course, I can't do it.

 

What if I find training on cave slimes fun? What if I told you that's how I got 49m str exp? Then is it acceptable for me to tell other people to do it? The obvious answer is no, because it's still a horrible way to train no matter how much I enjoy it, and if I post that it's a good way to train, I am trolling. We agree on this, and yet somehow you still go on to say that if OTHER people post equivalent advice, it's not trolling, because they "don't know better." Sorry, but if they still don't know better with proof that they're wrong under their nose, they're trolling too.

[Th e Doctor]

As for your last point, I feel like banging my head upon a wall. That is almost the whole point of this thread. Why then if you laugh at somebody doing something in an inefficient way should I not laugh at somebody doing something in an efficient way? I'm not hurting them in any way, just having fun.

I have absolutely no problem with people making fun of me based on that. You also assume that everything that isn't efficient is inefficient, which really isn't true. It's common for people to laugh at stupidity in real life, but it's a serious offense to do so in rs? please...

 

And ofcource, grimy, i agree. As a mod danq should know better than to instigate heated debates on this soft subject, particularly as he can't take any sides(he is retired, likely looks down on people who do play based on some of what he does/says).

 

Regardless of whether or not I agree with you on the latter half of this post this doesn't help xpx. You're one of the people I always am happy to see posting in H&A because you know what you're talking about, but the personal attacks on danq arent becoming of you...

[green9090]

Danq goes out of his way to be an obstacle. I don't see a point in sugar-coating it.

[All_Is_Great]

They believe it is their duty to correct someone no matter what it takes. Most of the times, they start off with some personal attacks about how "if you're not doing this, then you're a moron". Or something subtle and less obvious. Sorta like how America decides to intervene in places where it isn't democratic, they feel they must convert everyone to democracy.

 

Anyways,

 

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

That thread is a perfect example of why sometimes I feel "efficiency trolls" should have the quotation marks removed.

 

Regardless of whether or not I agree with you on the latter half of this post this doesn't help xpx. You're one of the people I always am happy to see posting in H&A because you know what you're talking about, but the personal attacks on danq arent becoming of you...

 

Of course they are, it's perfectly normal. You know how heated these discussions can get.

[Th e Doctor]

COMPROMISE? You thought we had almost reached a compromise? I'm sorry, do you know what that word means? Because from my angle it looked a lot like you were brick walling me by saying anyone can post bad advice whenever they want. But of course, I can't do it.

 

What if I find training on cave slimes fun? What if I told you that's how I got 49m str exp? Then is it acceptable for me to tell other people to do it? The obvious answer is no, because it's still a horrible way to train no matter how much I enjoy it, and if I post that it's a good way to train, I am trolling. We agree on this, and yet somehow you still go on to say that if OTHER people post equivalent advice, it's not trolling, because they "don't know better." Sorry, but if they still don't know better with proof that they're wrong under their nose, they're trolling too.

 

The more obvious reason that they are trolling is that they don't educate themselves before posting. If Im not sure what the best advice is then I look it up. its the posters responsibility to be knowledgeable about the issue before posting. Which is why I almost never post on boss hunting topics.

 

To your other post im not trying to sugar coat anything. Im trying to avoid personal attacks, something strive for IRL and online.

[xpx]

Regardless of whether or not I agree with you on the latter half of this post this doesn't help xpx. You're one of the people I always am happy to see posting in H&A because you know what you're talking about, but the personal attacks on danq arent becoming of you...

It's not a personal attack, it's the way i feel about him. I formulate my opinion on what i see and hear, and i'm free to post that. I know that even people higher up admit that having moderators who play the game is important, and i don't think him being retired does him any favors moderating largely game related subjects in GD and H&A. His sig and the attitude formulates the second part of what i believe about him, though yeah, this thread really isn't a place to discuss that. We are discussing a very sensitive subject on this thread, and him instigating with really very strange ideas about how H&A should work(how it doesn't and wouldn't) frankly baffles me.

[TheAncient]

I agree with Grimy as far as Danq goes.

 

You can't ban a player for being wrong. That's ridiculous. You CAN still support research and the efficiency community by actually banning the users who are clearly trolling. And by giving the content-focused players their own space. By fostering a self-selecting community. And by actually taking the effort to understand where we're coming from.

 

MAKE a judgment call. Oh wait, I don't trust your judgment.

 

In before this thread gets locked because mods can't take any criticism.

[SirIzenhime]

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

That thread is a perfect example of why sometimes I feel "efficiency trolls" should have the quotation marks removed.

 

 

wut.....?

One gave gave honest advice, the OP declined it and gave a reason as to why, which is fine. The original advice giver responded saying he didn't understand the decline, and why, which is fine.

 

And then 2 people jumped on him for being an efficiency troll....

Not once did the advice giver troll, insult, instigate flame, or patronize anyone in the thread.

 

Nice try though.

[Th e Doctor]

What makes me sad is that this has derailed into a critique of the mods and not a discussion aimed at removing the false premise that efficiency and fun are mutually exclusive from peoples minds that leads them to believe and comment that all those concerned with efficiency are trolling. In addition to helping establish clear reasons for why fun can not and should not be considered when evaluating what the objective "best" way of doing something is.

 

I get that there are interests in the moderation that are at ends with how we handle help and advice and our playstyles, I was hoping to shed rectify that through helping them understand where we are coming from and why.

[TheAncient]

What makes me sad is that this has derailed into a critique of the mods and not a discussion aimed at removing the false premise that efficiency and fun are mutually exclusive from peoples minds that leads them to believe and comment that all those concerned with efficiency are trolling. In addition to helping establish clear reasons for why fun can not and should not be considered when evaluating what the objective "best" way of doing something is.

 

I get that there are interests in the moderation that are at ends with how we handle help and advice and our playstyles, I was hoping to shed rectify that through helping them understand where we are coming from and why.

 

A change in the mods and how this forum is constructed is, in my view, the most realistic way to solve this problem of what really is just a series of personal vendettas.

 

It's already clear that fun and efficiency are not mutually exclusive. There's no need to debate that. I've already said that plenty of times, and people do not read/listen.

[Naraku893]

efficiency trolls are annoying and unwanted. its a game.

[pulli23]

 

See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning.

 

But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

 

The problem is that warning somebody for being wrong is not the way things should work. Hell half of the users of the forum would be banned by now for posting wrong information at one point or another. Warning for being wrong is not in the rules and will never be. It is up to the more respectable users to be the 'bigger man' and walk away. If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know.

Danq, the following statement is not intended as a flame or anything.

 

This is directed to the efficiency community.

How many of the "efficiency trolls" in the community would cite Danq as a major source of their frustrations, and likewise a major motivation to vent their frustrations on anti-trolls.

Raise your hand if you, both support efficiency and consider Danq to be a major instigator of efficiency based flame wars.

Not because he actually tries, but because Danq unwittingly says things that are horribly rude and patronizing.

 

And once again, my apologies Danq.

I would try to word this differently, but I'm sure we've already spoken on the matter far too many times in the past.

With all due respect: but this is baiting for a forum ban. Creating "petitions" like these undermines the ability of moderators to operate, leaving the admins in the split of either banning a large part of the forum or having to fall off their moderators.

[Naraku893]

efficiency trolls are annoying and unwanted. its a game.

 

While I agree, I ONLY agree if a person puts up a warning saying they want to train THIS way or THAT way. Or if they say something like I dont want a click/spend heavy method

and/or this:

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/288677-melee-gear-help-wanted-any-input-wanted/page__pid__4746603#entry4746635

[ghjkl]

Games are supposed to be fun. Being efficient lessons the time grinding skills