Efficiency Trolls

[Noxx]

People go to H&A for help and advice, saying they're don't want others opinions is frankly ridiculous.

Even one's like these?

 

Totally useless, completely ignorant and incredibly rude.

 

Useless? No. Ignorant? Maybe. Rude? Ok you have me there.

Yeah but sometimes, with certain people, you need to use some force before they can grasp an idea. So sometimes being rude IS the best option.

[Nifflin]

People go to H&A for help and advice, saying they're don't want others opinions is frankly ridiculous.

Even one's like these?

 

Totally useless, completely ignorant and incredibly rude.

 

Useless? No. Ignorant? Maybe. Rude? Ok you have me there.

Yeah but sometimes, with certain people, you need to use some force before they can grasp an idea. So sometimes being rude IS the best option.

It NEVER is in my opinion. That's like saying "some women just won't listen to me, so hitting them is the best option."

 

It isn't. Be patient and if that fails ignore them. To all the educated forum users you will have made your point and that is what matters.

[Blyaunte]

No it's not. Playing efficiently and doing research directly provides you the best way to have fun and achieve your goals. By definition.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion.

Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion?

 

Ancient -- no offence -- but that exchange REALLY reads like a science geek's response on your part.

 

It looks like essiw is arguing with Sheldon Cooper ...

:unsure:

[Ginger_Warrior]

People go to H&A for help and advice, saying they're don't want others opinions is frankly ridiculous.

Even one's like these?

 

Totally useless, completely ignorant and incredibly rude.

 

Useless? No. Ignorant? Maybe. Rude? Ok you have me there.

Yeah but sometimes, with certain people, you need to use some force before they can grasp an idea. So sometimes being rude IS the best option.

It NEVER is in my opinion. That's like saying "some women just won't listen to me, so hitting them is the best option."

 

It isn't. Be patient and if that fails ignore them. To all the educated forum users you will have made your point and that is what matters.

It isn't so much that what he's saying is particularly wrong. It's just that it's blatently obvious the only reason he's made that post is to be purposefully rude or prove some kind of intellectual superiority, and I'm sorry, I don't care if he's writing a cure for cancer - there's no need for it on an Internet forum where posting is a privilege, not a God-given right. I realise Tripsis posted on that thread but really, does that cut it? I know it wouldn't on plenty of other forums.

 

To be blunt, I'd gladly remove all the mathematical analysis if it meant removing posters who are only in the community to cause trouble. Actually, I don't think it's fair to view things like that because broadly speaking, the people who write those analyses aren't the ones being rude. It's other people jumping on the bandwagon and giving them a bad name as if they were speaking on their behalf.

[JacTise69]

Just a thought. If all the "efficiency trolls" left these forums, what would they be like? Isn't that high standard of devotion to the game and exploration of mechanics what makes these forums different from others? If people who gave advice about efficient methods all left H&A, would people be better off? If people didn't post the math proving that rapier > cls or other things about top gear, would the members of this community be better off?

 

My opinion is that the "efficiency trolls" are what makes this community great. Shoving things down peoples throats is never okay, but striving for knowledge should always be encouraged.

 

The negativity towards efficiency seems to be hindering so much more, is it really worth it?

 

PS, it's also REALLY [bleep]ING ANNOYING when people in H&A stick to incorrect, preconceived notions or give flat out bad advice. When someone posts the most efficient method there they are doing the best they can with the information given. A makeover of the H&A rules might be a great idea putting more burden on the OP to specify exactly what they want.

 

This sums up what I'm trying to portray fairly nicely. The discussions and math and spreadsheets have improved things and revealed methods of doing things in this game that maximize your cost:benefit ratio in whatever task you are under taking.

 

For me personally I didn't enjoy getting the level reqs for completing the void questline (I think it was the smithing one that I really had to work on but I digress) but I loved doing the quest itself, and the rewards that came with it. By using the most efficient way of training smithing I managed to spend the least amount of time doing what I hated, and more time enjoying the rewards from the quest. So even when being efficient itself isn't "fun" the time you save by being efficient in many cases will allow you to do more things that are fun, and spend more time enjoying them.\

 

edit

 

@above

 

The irony is that most of the posters that are posting just to cause trouble (some of them even put the fact that they are a troll in their sig...) are the ones who don't care about the mathematics that you're willing to cut out. And would be content having people convinced that killing things without piety/turmoil will make you profit more because you save money on prayer potions.

 

Just misread what you wrote, saw the bandwagon comment, ignore that :unsure:

[Noxx]

People go to H&A for help and advice, saying they're don't want others opinions is frankly ridiculous.

Even one's like these?

 

Totally useless, completely ignorant and incredibly rude.

 

Useless? No. Ignorant? Maybe. Rude? Ok you have me there.

Yeah but sometimes, with certain people, you need to use some force before they can grasp an idea. So sometimes being rude IS the best option.

It NEVER is in my opinion. That's like saying "some women just won't listen to me, so hitting them is the best option."

 

It isn't. Be patient and if that fails ignore them. To all the educated forum users you will have made your point and that is what matters.

It isn't so much that what he's saying is particularly wrong. It's just that it's blatently obvious the only reason he's made that post is to be purposefully rude or prove some kind of intellectual superiority, and I'm sorry, I don't care if he's writing a cure for cancer - there's no need for it on an Internet forum where posting is a privilege, not a God-given right. I realise Tripsis posted on that thread but really, does that cut it? I know it wouldn't on plenty of other forums.

 

To be blunt, I'd gladly remove all the mathematical analysis if it meant removing posters who are only in the community to cause trouble. Actually, I don't think it's fair to view things like that because broadly speaking, the people who write those analyses aren't the ones being rude. It's other people jumping on the bandwagon and giving them a bad name as if they were speaking on their behalf.

Yep, coultnt have said it better. I'm yet to see people like TheAncient and Xpx really be rude to someone, like some others are.

[TheAncient]

No it's not. Playing efficiently and doing research directly provides you the best way to have fun and achieve your goals. By definition.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion.

Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion?

 

Ancient -- no offence -- but that exchange REALLY reads like a science geek's response on your part.

 

It looks like essiw is arguing with Sheldon Cooper ...

:unsure:

What's wrong with being geeky? More people need to let science into their lives. Im geeky irl, but I get along with people fine.

 

And in context when I say resarch I don't necessarily mean data logging and xp tracking. All I mean is taking an open mind and willingness to learn. This attitude goes a long way.

[essiw]

Player A has fun killing Armoured Zombies. Player B has fun playing Castle Wars. Player C posts a topic asking for a fun way to train melee. How can you honestly answer this question? If you're Player A, can you automatically assume that Player C has fun the same way as you? Or do you have to assume he has fun some other way, because Player B always complains to him, "Armoured Zombies aren't fun!"

 

If it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently. Even if they ask for a fun method, you can't really give them proper advice on it.

It all depends on the question, if the question isn't specific it should be asked what he exactly wants.

 

If I say I want to train mining in a different way then mining granite and want to store my ores and don't care about money and xp because I would be smithing armour/ammo from it and I want some fun ways/places to achieve that, then saying: Mine granite and buy your ores is trolling.

In your case, the answers are all good (except for the player B saying that armoured zombies aren't fun without explaining why), but the question wasn't specific enough, he should state what he thinks is fun (like I want to collect good bones for prayer, I want to get much money out of it, I want to train slayer at the same time, I want the best xp rates possible etc.).

 

I agree with your sentence "f it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently." But that doesn't say that you should not give people the advice they want just because there are more efficient ways then the TS wants.

 

@ tieszen

I never asked for the best, same as other people do, but some people just can't understand that playing inefficient is fun too, the same as some players can't understand that efficient is fun too.

Also "the best" is not directly "the best efficiently method" it could be "the best money making method" "the best afk-able method" or even "the best fun method" that is why you should not only say "I want the best method" but say something like "I want the best xp rates" or "I want the best money maker" of course you cannot say "I want the best fun method" so if you want fun ways you should explain what you think is fun or give examples of other methods you think are fun so people can give you something that works the same way as the other method.

[Overdoziz]

Trolling means having a disrespect to the person asking the question,

Nope.

[Blyaunte]

No it's not. Playing efficiently and doing research directly provides you the best way to have fun and achieve your goals. By definition.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion.

Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion?

 

Ancient -- no offence -- but that exchange REALLY reads like a science geek's response on your part.

 

It looks like essiw is arguing with Sheldon Cooper ...

:unsure:

What's wrong with being geeky? More people need to let science into their lives. Im geeky irl, but I get along with people fine.

 

And in context when I say resarch I don't necessarily mean data logging and xp tracking. All I mean is taking an open mind and willingness to learn. This attitude goes a long way.

 

LOL! Nothing is wrong with being geeky, you would not be the person you are, and I am not asking you to behave any differently ... <3:

 

That said, there's more than ONE way to skin a cat, as it were -- and your definition of "FUN" is, in no way shape or form, the same as someone else's and you can bet that it sure as HELL hasn't got anything to do with efficiency and scientific equations ...

 

:lol:

[TheAncient]

Trolling means to say or do something that serves no other purpose than to annoy someone else for your amusement

 

And Blyaunte, that's not what I mean. I am not advocating for everyone to construct objective function for "fun" and then optimize it. All I'm saying is that, to maximize "fun", whatever it might be, you should have an open mind and be willing to explore your options. This is harder than it sounds, as it requires listening to advice even if you don't like the person advising you. In direct contrast, advocates of "fun" often have a way of doing things and don't really seek to better themselves.

[JacTise69]

Player A has fun killing Armoured Zombies. Player B has fun playing Castle Wars. Player C posts a topic asking for a fun way to train melee. How can you honestly answer this question? If you're Player A, can you automatically assume that Player C has fun the same way as you? Or do you have to assume he has fun some other way, because Player B always complains to him, "Armoured Zombies aren't fun!"

 

If it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently. Even if they ask for a fun method, you can't really give them proper advice on it.

It all depends on the question, if the question isn't specific it should be asked what he exactly wants.

 

If I say I want to train mining in a different way then mining granite and want to store my ores and don't care about money and xp because I would be smithing armour/ammo from it and I want some fun ways/places to achieve that, then saying: Mine granite and buy your ores is trolling.

In your case, the answers are all good (except for the player B saying that armoured zombies aren't fun without explaining why), but the question wasn't specific enough, he should state what he thinks is fun (like I want to collect good bones for prayer, I want to get much money out of it, I want to train slayer at the same time, I want the best xp rates possible etc.).

 

I agree with your sentence "f it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently." But that doesn't say that you should not give people the advice they want just because there are more efficient ways then the TS wants.

 

@ tieszen

I never asked for the best, same as other people do, but some people just can't understand that playing inefficient is fun too, the same as some players can't understand that efficient is fun too.

Also "the best" is not directly "the best efficiently method" it could be "the best money making method" "the best afk-able method" or even "the best fun method" that is why you should not only say "I want the best method" but say something like "I want the best xp rates" or "I want the best money maker" of course you cannot say "I want the best fun method" so if you want fun ways you should explain what you think is fun or give examples of other methods you think are fun so people can give you something that works the same way as the other method.

 

To your mining scenario I would respond "Go find a spot that you think is fun and train there, no one can tell you what you will find enjoyable". Then I would ask if he wanted a list of places he could easily mine and bank, and why he is intent on smelting/smithing his own ore that he mined. If he wants the list and is doing it for his own personal satisfaction (perhaps he's a DIY account) then I give him the list and pro's and cons of each spot (distance from the bank etc) but I can't tell him if they will be fun or not. If he wants the list and is doing it because he thinks its the best way to train smithing I will politely tell him that he could save lots of time by superheating or smelting (or both if he doesn't mind it) gold ore with gauntlets for faster smithing exp and bonus magic exp.

 

There is no best fun method so that point is moot. And best efficient method takes into consideration all of those things you mentioned (gp/hr exp/hr afkability etc). The goal is to be efficient in what you want. Guaranteed you've never found a money making thread asking for combat ways to make money and heard "Go to AZ's cuz they're better melee exp/hr".

 

edit

 

For the last time

 

We are not assuming that others will enjoy putting our advice into practice. We aren't assuming that they won't enjoy it either. We're assuming that when they ask for the best way of doing something that the response should be based on providing the individual with the highest cost benefit ratio with relation to what their goal is. If they want fun we can not help them outside of providing a list of all possible options. Unfortunately when said list is presented often times the poster then asks which is better...which leads us back to asking what their goal is aside from fun.

[Blyaunte]

And Blyaunte, that's not what I mean. I am not advocating for everyone to construct objective function for "fun" and then optimize it. All I'm saying is that, to maximize "fun", whatever it might be, you should have an open mind and be willing to explore your options. This is harder than it sounds, as it requires listening to advice even if you don't like the person advising you. In direct contrast, advocates of "fun" often have a way of doing things and don't really seek to better themselves.

 

Yes, I know. I am not arguing with you -- so please don't think you have to alter my opinion at all in any way on the issue. You're preaching to the choir, as it were.

 

I know that the time I spend reading your posts, and those of the other "efficianados" is time well spent. And I know that you and the others, really, have the better interests of other people in mind.

 

And I APPRECIATE IT! I really do.

 

My point was that your side of the discussion "READ" like Sheldon Cooper -- not that that's a bad thing -- it just IS ...

 

(... and it's kinda funny, if you're a fan of the show, which I am ...)

[JacTise69]

Edited the main post with a note about this not being an issue of fun vs efficiency.

 

To help prove I am not against having fun that isn't efficient. my current goal is to get 85 herblore via cleaning snapdragons and making them into unf pots with my scroll of cleansing for profit in the process. I know that this isn't efficient in terms of exp/hr or gp/hr. I'm doing it because the personal satisfaction I get from accomplishing outlandish goals is "fun" for me.

 

While doing this however I am looking to clean the most herbs/hr, so I seek to be efficient in that sense of the goal.

[Jaffy1]

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person.

 

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I would argue that a person's actions do make a person (or at least to some extent). That said, calling a person's training methods stupid can indeed be considered insulting or rude, and does help create arguments on the whole "efficiency vs fun" issue.

 

For example, I reached 99 mining in free to play by mining and superheating mithril ore and coal in the mining guild - a method which I found satisfying as well as profitable, despite it taking many weeks (or months even) and being "inefficient". On one occasion a F2p user asking for advice on mining with the wish of training smithing and making money, so I suggested this method for him. I then had the pleasure of watching what you call an "efficiency troll" call me an idiot for having trained mining this way, and told the asker to become P2p and powermine granite, because that was "by far the best method in the game" according to him.

 

The problem that I see is not so much the fact that some people prefer efficiency where others (like myself) often prefer slower and possibly "more fun" methods of training, but the fact that apparently answering a question no longer seems about answering what the asker wants to know, but more about trying to "win" with this notion of efficiency versus fun. At times users are rude, arrogant and just obnoxious with their notion of being "right about what is best" where it always will be a matter of opinions.

 

 

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

[Th e Doctor]

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person.

 

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I would argue that a person's actions do make a person (or at least to some extent). That said, calling a person's training methods stupid can indeed be considered insulting or rude, and does help create arguments on the whole "efficiency vs fun" issue.

 

For example, I reached 99 mining in free to play by mining and superheating mithril ore and coal in the mining guild - a method which I found satisfying as well as profitable, despite it taking many weeks (or months even) and being "inefficient". On one occasion a F2p user asking for advice on mining with the wish of training smithing and making money, so I suggested this method for him. I then had the pleasure of watching what you call an "efficiency troll" call me an idiot for having trained mining this way, and told the asker to become P2p and powermine granite, because that was "by far the best method in the game" according to him.

 

The problem that I see is not so much the fact that some people prefer efficiency where others (like myself) often prefer slower and possibly "more fun" methods of training, but the fact that apparently answering a question no longer seems about answering what the asker wants to know, but more about trying to "win" with this notion of efficiency versus fun. At times users are rude, arrogant and just obnoxious with their notion of being "right about what is best" where it always will be a matter of opinions.

 

 

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

About actions =/= person I have to disagree with you. A smart person can make very stupid decisions for a lot of reasons, being misinformed by someone whom they trust, being underinformed before they made the choice, or not being in a proper state of mind when deciding (due to emotions, drugs or what have you). I am always careful to clarify that the person isn't stupid, that only their actions are.

 

Example. Person A wants to train melee. He looks up the stats for a Godsword and a whip and ignorant of how much the speed of a weapon influences your potential damage output in a given period of time he picks the Godsword. After training with it he wonders if he could be getting better exp/hr so he asks in H&A to which us efficiency clowns inform him that a whip will be better for training quickly. He was training with a stupid method before he asked but he was not stupid. Now that he is informed if he chooses to keep training with the Godsword and complain about the low exp/hr he is stupid. If he chooses to keep it for fun then he's having a good time and no one can argue with him about it. He still is smart and knows that a whip is going to be better, but is training stupidly for the sake of fun.

 

Example 2 (which is perhaps much more common). I have a friend who is extremely intelligent, full ride to MIT off of academics and an IQ of 187. He still chooses to get drunk on the weekends for "fun" and one weekend he made the choice while drunk to sleep with a girl who ended up getting pregnant. Was it a smart thing to do given all the stuff he has going for him in life that could be ruined by the potential consequences? Nope. Does this in anyway diminish his stark intellectual prowess? Nope. It just means a smart person made a stupid choice.

 

For mining I don't judge you for training with grossly inefficient methods, you had fun doing it so fine. The fact is the poster who asked for help had other options for mining and smithing that would be better for him in terms of exp/hr and gp/hr (mining iron and banking in the resource dungeon with MTK workers on coal would have netted him better exp and faster money). However the troll who called you an idiot has my pity, he does not represent what I'm trying to articulate in this thread.

 

And lol at that thread, I posted in it ;)

 

You'll notice that in addition to the trolls whom I do not endorse (besides the fact that there are two anti efficiency trolls for every one of them) myself and two other posters let him know the most efficient way of doing his relatively inefficient training. Which is what myself and the others like me always do.

[Obtaurian]

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person.

 

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I would argue that a person's actions do make a person (or at least to some extent). That said, calling a person's training methods stupid can indeed be considered insulting or rude, and does help create arguments on the whole "efficiency vs fun" issue.

 

For example, I reached 99 mining in free to play by mining and superheating mithril ore and coal in the mining guild - a method which I found satisfying as well as profitable, despite it taking many weeks (or months even) and being "inefficient". On one occasion a F2p user asking for advice on mining with the wish of training smithing and making money, so I suggested this method for him. I then had the pleasure of watching what you call an "efficiency troll" call me an idiot for having trained mining this way, and told the asker to become P2p and powermine granite, because that was "by far the best method in the game" according to him.

 

The problem that I see is not so much the fact that some people prefer efficiency where others (like myself) often prefer slower and possibly "more fun" methods of training, but the fact that apparently answering a question no longer seems about answering what the asker wants to know, but more about trying to "win" with this notion of efficiency versus fun. At times users are rude, arrogant and just obnoxious with their notion of being "right about what is best" where it always will be a matter of opinions.

 

 

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

Incidentally, what you did is part of the big problem. That player asked you a question. You agreed to answer that question. You then had an obligation to answer that question in one of two ways, with the first option being mandatory and the second option being . . . optional.

 

1) "Powermining iron is the best mining exp in f2p. You could then use the time saved to make money for smithing." <- Probably by mining rune. I don't know much about f2p moneymaking.

2) "However, I personally mined and superheated mith ore. It's not the best way, but I found it fun. You could give it a try."

 

In that answer you've given him genuinely helpful advice while providing an alternative method that isn't as good, but is now on the table for him to consider, and he knows where he stands with either option.

[essiw]

Player A has fun killing Armoured Zombies. Player B has fun playing Castle Wars. Player C posts a topic asking for a fun way to train melee. How can you honestly answer this question? If you're Player A, can you automatically assume that Player C has fun the same way as you? Or do you have to assume he has fun some other way, because Player B always complains to him, "Armoured Zombies aren't fun!"

 

If it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently. Even if they ask for a fun method, you can't really give them proper advice on it.

It all depends on the question, if the question isn't specific it should be asked what he exactly wants.

 

If I say I want to train mining in a different way then mining granite and want to store my ores and don't care about money and xp because I would be smithing armour/ammo from it and I want some fun ways/places to achieve that, then saying: Mine granite and buy your ores is trolling.

In your case, the answers are all good (except for the player B saying that armoured zombies aren't fun without explaining why), but the question wasn't specific enough, he should state what he thinks is fun (like I want to collect good bones for prayer, I want to get much money out of it, I want to train slayer at the same time, I want the best xp rates possible etc.).

 

I agree with your sentence "f it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently." But that doesn't say that you should not give people the advice they want just because there are more efficient ways then the TS wants.

 

@ tieszen

I never asked for the best, same as other people do, but some people just can't understand that playing inefficient is fun too, the same as some players can't understand that efficient is fun too.

Also "the best" is not directly "the best efficiently method" it could be "the best money making method" "the best afk-able method" or even "the best fun method" that is why you should not only say "I want the best method" but say something like "I want the best xp rates" or "I want the best money maker" of course you cannot say "I want the best fun method" so if you want fun ways you should explain what you think is fun or give examples of other methods you think are fun so people can give you something that works the same way as the other method.

 

To your mining scenario I would respond "Go find a spot that you think is fun and train there, no one can tell you what you will find enjoyable". Then I would ask if he wanted a list of places he could easily mine and bank, and why he is intent on smelting/smithing his own ore that he mined. If he wants the list and is doing it for his own personal satisfaction (perhaps he's a DIY account) then I give him the list and pro's and cons of each spot (distance from the bank etc) but I can't tell him if they will be fun or not. If he wants the list and is doing it because he thinks its the best way to train smithing I will politely tell him that he could save lots of time by superheating or smelting (or both if he doesn't mind it) gold ore with gauntlets for faster smithing exp and bonus magic exp.

 

There is no best fun method so that point is moot. And best efficient method takes into consideration all of those things you mentioned (gp/hr exp/hr afkability etc). The goal is to be efficient in what you want. Guaranteed you've never found a money making thread asking for combat ways to make money and heard "Go to AZ's cuz they're better melee exp/hr".

 

edit

 

For the last time

 

We are not assuming that others will enjoy putting our advice into practice. We aren't assuming that they won't enjoy it either. We're assuming that when they ask for the best way of doing something that the response should be based on providing the individual with the highest cost benefit ratio with relation to what their goal is. If they want fun we can not help them outside of providing a list of all possible options. Unfortunately when said list is presented often times the poster then asks which is better...which leads us back to asking what their goal is aside from fun.

I find that a perfect answer, you gave the person many options, answered the question that he had and also gave him information to inform him about better ways, so he can choose a fun and/or efficient way for himself. Now if all the persons acted like you said this thread would not be here. It would already change if most of the people change their words in a way that they are nice instead of ranting the player but basically saying the same thing.

[Danqazmlp]

Though posting wrong information/bad ideas isn't considered trolling, a superior of yours has said they both go under the same rules as flaming/trolling and are reportable offenses(atlest in H&A, sometimes in more serious GD topics).

 

Can you please show me where? Posting bad information with the knowledge it is bad is definately against the rules, but as a recent long discussion went on a report, posting a suggestion which is only bad to some, just not overly efficient isn't.

 

And yeah, i agree with green in this post being a horrible example of the TIF intellectual community- a retired player, still a moderator looking at logic the way it never should be looked at.

How shouldn't it be looked at? And to go with that, how does me not playing come into it at all? I don't play the game but I keep an active interest in it. It isn't as if I have just never looked at any Runescape topic or discussion for a year. But even then, how does it effect anything relating to this discussion other than you're obvious dislike of me?

 

Efficiency is objective. If you take enough parameters into account the efficient method will always be the best method of doing things. The usual suspects are cost and xp rates, but afkness and clicking intensity can also be considered to make it more objective, thus many methods can be efficient for the same skill at the same income.

 

Fun is subjective. What one considers fun may very well be extremely boring for another person. It is also really hard to judge what people do consider fun- for most everything, doing anything for 18 hours straight is not fun, thus it's extremely hard to judge how fun a method is, judge how it stacks up against other methods or how it may seem to another person.

 

Taking this knowledge into account, H&A, in the mind of this moderator, should be an endless stream of spam of anything anyone can every think of. Everything can be fun for a short amount of time, thus anything that even remotely fits under the bill of training could be advised(training strength pushing trough wheat, for example).

 

What i see as help and advice is more knowledgeable and experienced players giving their best and most efficient knowledge(as efficiency is objective, remember) to train select skills, and for the majority of occasions, this works very well. The times it doesn't work is when the OP has misunderstandings about efficiency or when less knowledgeable people try to chip in with bad advice, in which case it can get ugly. Then again, i've only seen a guidelines list of H&A improvements from the efficiency clowns, not those who call us that, so that is something you all should consider.

 

H&A IS about efficiency, whether you like it or not.

 

I don't think you are understanding what I'm talking about. I agree with most of the points you just made. By all means post the things that are efficient in topics which ask for them. By all means H&A should be a place for the more knowledgeable to suggest the most efficient ways they know of. But it should also be a place where people can get a wide range of views. Being realistic, a topic isn't going to get 10 pages of spam bad replies, it may get one or two inefficient replies within the efficient ones. These aren't damaging to the thread, they just give the OP extra information to see and take in.

 

In your thing when people chip in with the less efficient advice, it only gets ugly when those who are supposedly more "knowledgeable and experienced" call them out for their bad advice and more often than not, say something that the person finds offensive or rude. Is it too hard to just skip that information if it has no relevance to you, but may do to the OP.

 

Some H&A threads instead of being advice for somebody seeking it turn into two people arguing over who has the better opinion. You should be helping the OP, not bickering with each other.

 

As Mask said a few pages back and I said near the beginning, agree to disagree. It is such a subjective field that neither side can see how the other side thinks and neither side seem to be able to empathise with each other.

[Th e Doctor]

Player A has fun killing Armoured Zombies. Player B has fun playing Castle Wars. Player C posts a topic asking for a fun way to train melee. How can you honestly answer this question? If you're Player A, can you automatically assume that Player C has fun the same way as you? Or do you have to assume he has fun some other way, because Player B always complains to him, "Armoured Zombies aren't fun!"

 

If it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently. Even if they ask for a fun method, you can't really give them proper advice on it.

It all depends on the question, if the question isn't specific it should be asked what he exactly wants.

 

If I say I want to train mining in a different way then mining granite and want to store my ores and don't care about money and xp because I would be smithing armour/ammo from it and I want some fun ways/places to achieve that, then saying: Mine granite and buy your ores is trolling.

In your case, the answers are all good (except for the player B saying that armoured zombies aren't fun without explaining why), but the question wasn't specific enough, he should state what he thinks is fun (like I want to collect good bones for prayer, I want to get much money out of it, I want to train slayer at the same time, I want the best xp rates possible etc.).

 

I agree with your sentence "f it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently." But that doesn't say that you should not give people the advice they want just because there are more efficient ways then the TS wants.

 

@ tieszen

I never asked for the best, same as other people do, but some people just can't understand that playing inefficient is fun too, the same as some players can't understand that efficient is fun too.

Also "the best" is not directly "the best efficiently method" it could be "the best money making method" "the best afk-able method" or even "the best fun method" that is why you should not only say "I want the best method" but say something like "I want the best xp rates" or "I want the best money maker" of course you cannot say "I want the best fun method" so if you want fun ways you should explain what you think is fun or give examples of other methods you think are fun so people can give you something that works the same way as the other method.

 

To your mining scenario I would respond "Go find a spot that you think is fun and train there, no one can tell you what you will find enjoyable". Then I would ask if he wanted a list of places he could easily mine and bank, and why he is intent on smelting/smithing his own ore that he mined. If he wants the list and is doing it for his own personal satisfaction (perhaps he's a DIY account) then I give him the list and pro's and cons of each spot (distance from the bank etc) but I can't tell him if they will be fun or not. If he wants the list and is doing it because he thinks its the best way to train smithing I will politely tell him that he could save lots of time by superheating or smelting (or both if he doesn't mind it) gold ore with gauntlets for faster smithing exp and bonus magic exp.

 

There is no best fun method so that point is moot. And best efficient method takes into consideration all of those things you mentioned (gp/hr exp/hr afkability etc). The goal is to be efficient in what you want. Guaranteed you've never found a money making thread asking for combat ways to make money and heard "Go to AZ's cuz they're better melee exp/hr".

 

edit

 

For the last time

 

We are not assuming that others will enjoy putting our advice into practice. We aren't assuming that they won't enjoy it either. We're assuming that when they ask for the best way of doing something that the response should be based on providing the individual with the highest cost benefit ratio with relation to what their goal is. If they want fun we can not help them outside of providing a list of all possible options. Unfortunately when said list is presented often times the poster then asks which is better...which leads us back to asking what their goal is aside from fun.

I find that a perfect answer, you gave the person many options, answered the question that he had and also gave him information to inform him about better ways, so he can choose a fun and/or efficient way for himself. Now if all the persons acted like you said this thread would not be here. It would already change if most of the people change their words in a way that they are nice instead of ranting the player but basically saying the same thing.

 

 

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

[Danqazmlp]

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

 

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice.

 

Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety.

[dargonhuman]

 

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person.

 

It doesn't matter what you're talking about or how sweetly you try to word things, as soon as the word "stupid" enters an argument, it's no longer a civil or respectful discussion. Words like "stupid", "moronic", "imbecile", etc. shouldn't have any place in a mature discussion and only serve to incite the other side into anger. Also, when you openly insult what someone does, whether it's their job, their shopping habits or the way they play games, they are going to take it personally, whether or not you meant it that way. You may not consider a person's actions to be representative of that person, but a lot of people use their actions to define themselves to others, and at the same time, they see how others act as definitive of the other person's identity.

 

I'm sure at some obsenely low income levels (100 k/hr or something like that) ectoing could be considered more efficient because the time saved altaring couldn't be used to make enough money to justify the additional cost. But for most players (anyone who can pick mort myre fungi/harvest white berry spawns...no wait that's everyone) this is not the case.

 

I highlighted the part that's relevant to why people don't like the efficiency crowd; it's little asides like the one bolded that makes average players hate efficiency proponents. There are tons of posts here from a lot of different members that include such asinine comments and snide remarks. I can almost see the efficiency proponents looking down their noses at everyone else, sniffing snidely at us and asking, "Why can't you just be more like us, you know, smart and efficient?" I'm not saying that is what happens, but that's how it feels to those of us who have received such treatment. Just like what I said earlier in this post, you can't use inflammatory language like that and expect people to not react to it. That's why most people get the impression - false or not - that the efficiency camp is a bunch of snobbish, elitist buffoons that can't see past their collections of numbers and realize there's more than one way to train effectively. For some people, "efficient" is more than just number crunching to get the best bottom line dividend. For example, people keep telling me that the best way to train Slayer is to get tasks from the highest level Slayer Master in order to get the fastest xp rate. I disagree because I can't justify spending that much money on food and gear just to train a skill I despise simply to do a quest or two. I'd rather go for the easier tasks that I don't have to invest any money or food into, even if it takes a little longer. Sure, I could go to Vannaka or Sumona, fight some dragons or killerwatts, spend a couple thousand gp on food (not to mention wasting time going back and forth from a bank to the nearest training spot), or I could skip all that, do a few more tasks of goblins and banshees and keep my cash to buy supplies for skills I actually enjoy, such as smithing or crafting. Personally, I find that to be far more efficient than simply getting the highest xp/hr.

[green9090]

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

 

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice.

 

Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety.

The issue is when fun suggestions are presented as efficient advice. Saying that you like your CLS because it hits really high is... okay, I guess, but when you start explaining how CLS is BETTER, that shouldn't be okay. It confuses the facts and makes it more difficult for the OP to be sure what is actually true.

[Danqazmlp]

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

 

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice.

 

Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety.

The issue is when fun suggestions are presented as efficient advice. Saying that you like your CLS because it hits really high is... okay, I guess, but when you start explaining how CLS is BETTER, that shouldn't be okay. It confuses the facts and makes it more difficult for the OP to be sure what is actually true.

 

 

I agree completely. (See it's nice when people make constructive arguments from opposite ends of the discussion without resorting to flames, couldn't this carry over to H&A) At that stage they should just be ignored.

[Th e Doctor]

This thread is here because any time efficiency is mentioned, trolling or not, it is labeled as trolling. I'm hoping that by showing that while efficiency and fun are not mutually exclusive the latter is not something that advice can be given on due to its subjective nature. Because this is true the most efficient way of doing things is the only reasonable way of giving advice.

 

I have given advice nearly identical to someone before on these forums and still got flamed and called a clown for even suggesting there may be better ways of training. Its not right and I'd like to have a rational discussion on how to avoid our being lumped in with the people who legitimately post just to irritate people. Unfortunately since we are called clowns for our love for being rational i fear this may be hopeless...

 

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice.

 

Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety.

 

Agreed that suggestion is definitively a better word to use when asking what to do for fun. I don't have an issue with suggesting something for fun. My issue is when said fun method is inefficient and the suggester (I just made a word?) insists that it is. When we say no it isn't we arent trying to say its not fun, we're correcting something they are objectively wrong on.

 

And I always make a point to respond in a way that is curteous. I still get flamed for being an "efficianado".

 

At this point in my day the "e" word is starting to sound funny because I've typed it soooo many times. I'll check back when my brain stops trying to ooze out of my ears...