Tipping

[Nomrombom]

But, is it contractually enforced?

 

Here in the UK if I understand correctly, whatever your payment method, whatever your hours and whatever the contract, you need to be being paid at least minimum wage as basic pay, otherwise certain government offices can get involved.

 

Can waiters in America for instance go to an official and explain that they don't contractually get paid minimum wage, therefore leading to a change in it?

 

If not, this should be the case.

 

No. Waiters don't get paid minimum wage because the law says they don't have to get paid minimum wage. It's the laws that need changing.

[sees_all1]

No, the Americans [bleep]ing about "mandatory" tips hiding behind the "we shouldn't pay people for what they're paid to do" fail to realize is that servers go to work with the understanding that their clients are their bosses, not the restaurant.

 

Their job is serving you, you are expected to pay them for it.

 

Their sub minimum wage from the restaurant is a way to pay them for not so busy times and retain them, not for serving you. It isn't some cruel system where the restaurant is making bank on the backs of slave labor, unless you don't tip them. Then you're the problem, for being a douche.

 

 

 

In places where there are better wages and the servers are paid in full by the restaurant (In the U.S., fast food and casual "order up front"), tipping isn't mandatory, and should be reserved for great or outstanding service. Probably the distinguishing feature in the US is if you sit down before ordering.

[Danqazmlp]

Minimum wage is really the minimum for the vast majority of jobs. Waiters make less because of this whole tipping-makes-up-for-it crap. Prisoners make less as well, and I believe there are a few other jobs which receive tips and thus can make less than minimum. For the vast, vast majority though, minimum wage really is the minimum they get paid.

So, what we're actually discovering here is that when a customer tips a waiter/waitress, they're masking a far more serious problem: That their employer isn't paying them a fair amount for the work they do.

 

I'm not sure about anyone else, but if I discovered that my charitable act of kindness was reinforcing the unfair circumstances someone else finds themselves in, I wouldn't be giving them money, I'd be giving them support to make their circumstances fairer.

 

 

I fully agree. Now how does one act upon this feeling (Especially not being from the country in question).

 

All jobs in society should be paid an equal amount as a minimum. (with exceptions like voluntary work, work experience and the self-employed)

[Danqazmlp]

No, the Americans [bleep]ing about "mandatory" tips hiding behind the "we shouldn't pay people for what they're paid to do" fail to realize is that servers go to work with the understanding that their clients are their bosses, not the restaurant.

 

Their job is serving you, you are expected to pay them for it.

 

Their sub minimum wage from the restaurant is a way to pay them for not so busy times and retain them, not for serving you. It isn't some cruel system where the restaurant is making bank on the backs of slave labor, unless you don't tip them. Then you're the problem, for being a douche.

 

 

 

In places where there are better wages and the servers are paid in full by the restaurant (In the U.S., fast food and casual "order up front"), tipping isn't mandatory, and should be reserved for great or outstanding service. Probably the distinguishing feature in the US is if you sit down before ordering.

 

 

But you are paying them by eating at their establishment any way. That is where their wage should come from.

 

As an example, I work in a shop where I serve hundreds of people during a shift. My job role is also serving the customers, with busy and slow times. There is very little difference other than I may spend 20 minutes with 15 customers, a waiter will spend it with a single customer. I don't need a tip, even though I have to put up with some downright rude people and horrible people from time to time because I get paid at a minimum wage. The same should be for all jobs.

[sees_all1]

I fully agree. Now how does one act upon this feeling (Especially not being from the country in question).

 

All jobs in society should be paid an equal amount as a minimum. (with exceptions like voluntary work, work experience and the self-employed)

I disagree. Price floors lessen the quantity of work demanded and increase the quantity supplied, makes it harder for people to get a job. It also can trap people in the, "I can't get a job without work experience, I can't get work experience without a job" cycle.

 

Not to mention that all work isn't worth the same amount.

 

Also, as shown time and again, people only have to work for minimum wage for about three months before getting a raise or promoted. More jobs allows people to leave their job if they feel they're not being compensated the correct amount, fewer jobs make people compete for scraps.

 

 

EDIT:

But you are paying them by eating at their establishment any way. That is where their wage should come from.

 

As an example, I work in a shop where I serve hundreds of people during a shift. My job role is also serving the customers, with busy and slow times. There is very little difference other than I may spend 20 minutes with 15 customers, a waiter will spend it with a single customer. I don't need a tip, even though I have to put up with some downright rude people and horrible people from time to time because I get paid at a minimum wage. The same should be for all jobs.

The US system gives more protection for their consumers. If I go to a restaurant, pay full price for my food and it comes late, I don't like the service, etc., there is no direct feedback for my server. I'm not their boss, they get paid the same amount. I could never come back, that's not their problem, it's the owner that takes a hit.

It also rewards outstanding employees, people that do better work get paid more.

[Nomrombom]

But you are paying them by eating at their establishment any way. That is where their wage should come from.

 

Also this.

[Assume Nothing]

No, the Americans [bleep]ing about "mandatory" tips hiding behind the "we shouldn't pay people for what they're paid to do" fail to realize is that servers go to work with the understanding that their clients are their bosses, not the restaurant.

 

Their job is serving you, you are expected to pay them for it.

 

Their sub minimum wage from the restaurant is a way to pay them for not so busy times and retain them, not for serving you. It isn't some cruel system where the restaurant is making bank on the backs of slave labor, unless you don't tip them. Then you're the problem, for being a douche.

 

In places where there are better wages and the servers are paid in full by the restaurant (In the U.S., fast food and casual "order up front"), tipping isn't mandatory, and should be reserved for great or outstanding service. Probably the distinguishing feature in the US is if you sit down before ordering.

 

It's not the client's responsibility to provide a decent wage-rate for the employee. It's a flawed system that exploits consumer generosity, essentially coercing patrons to pay an additional fee not out of choice, for something that isn't their fault. The employees should be paid a sufficient wage rate by the employers to begin with.

 

I fail to see how consumers would be a 'douche' if they don't tip - ultimately, the responsibility lies on the employer. Employers provide a secure job, the employees provide a service, and the patrons provide the cashflow necessary to keep the system operational. Tips should be reserved for good service - not for every meal.

 

I'd agree with social encouragement of tipping, but I'd stop there. It would be absurd to suggest that any other profession should demand mandatory tips, so why should the restaurant industry do so?

 

EDIT - In order to address the catch 22, there could be a slight adjustment in employment law that could alleviate the issue. Similar to an apprenticeship scheme, they could be placed under training scheme for a lower wage rate than the national minimum in order to encourage employers to hire more.

 

Or, alternatively, there could be ways to break the trap, similar to volunteering except payments could be made. I do understand that there may be more implications which may follow the proposal, though.

[Danqazmlp]

Sees All, Could you supply any proof for any of that, or provide the rationale behind many of the claims you made as I cannot see the links.

 

I have worked in the same job for many years (and know many, many others in the same situation) who have only had price rises with Minimum wages. Promotion and wage increass may be possible in fast moving jobs, but in lower paid and menial jobs, promotions come very rarely and opportunities to move up are not easy to come by.

 

EDIT: I do not believe that with equal minimum wages there is no direct feedback for the server. Complaints to the manager or the server themselves, refusal to pay for a meal or asking for a discount due to bad service is something which you could still do. You can also still tip if the server has done a good job, giving them a reward for working well.

[fastortoise]

I don't like how I have to tip more for the same service. More specifically, why should I tip a waiter ~20$ for an expensive bottle of wine if he/she put as much effort bringing it to me as if it were a 10$ bottle?

The system is obviously flawed, but it wouldn't be a problem or even exist if everyone just did their [bleep]ing jobs properly.

[sees_all1]

Sees All, Could you supply any proof for any of that, or provide the rationale behind many of the claims you made as I cannot see the links.

 

I have worked in the same job for many years (and know many, many others in the same situation) who have only had price rises with Minimum wages. Promotion and wage increass may be possible in fast moving jobs, but in lower paid and menial jobs, promotions come very rarely and opportunities to move up are not easy to come by.

 

EDIT: I do not believe that with equal minimum wages there is no direct feedback for the server. Complaints to the manager or the server themselves, refusal to pay for a meal or asking for a discount due to bad service is something which you could still do. You can also still tip if the server has done a good job, giving them a reward for working well.

Saw the original three month statistic in an economics book. Not sure which one, will have to dig it out of the attic when I get home.

 

However, this page suggests that 67% of full time workers get paid more than minimum wage within a year of starting work at minimum wage.

Also, the economics behind a price floor are well known.

[Will H]

No, the Americans [bleep]ing about "mandatory" tips hiding behind the "we shouldn't pay people for what they're paid to do" fail to realize is that servers go to work with the understanding that their clients are their bosses, not the restaurant.

 

Their job is serving you, you are expected to pay them for it.

 

Their sub minimum wage from the restaurant is a way to pay them for not so busy times and retain them, not for serving you. It isn't some cruel system where the restaurant is making bank on the backs of slave labor, unless you don't tip them. Then you're the problem, for being a douche.

 

 

 

In places where there are better wages and the servers are paid in full by the restaurant (In the U.S., fast food and casual "order up front"), tipping isn't mandatory, and should be reserved for great or outstanding service. Probably the distinguishing feature in the US is if you sit down before ordering.

 

No, the restaurant is the boss, there's really no getting around that one. The idea of the customers being the boss of the waiters is just rhetoric that means nothing contractually. A good waiter treats customers as if they were employed directly by the customer only because that is what is expected from them in their contract with the restaurant. They could be completely rude to the customer, but the decision to fire them would ultimately fall to the restaurant, not the offended customer.

 

The payment of wages therefore must go via the employer and then to the waiter, with all of the minimum wage laws applying. Transactions that don't go along the contractual route can only be charitable, and none of the restaurant's business.

[Assume Nothing]

I don't think I could phrase it any better than quoting you, Will.

[Will H]

Thanks. :-)

[sees_all1]

No, the restaurant is the boss, there's really no getting around that one. The idea of the customers being the boss of the waiters is just rhetoric that means nothing contractually. A good waiter treats customers as if they were employed directly by the customer only because that is what is expected from them in their contract with the restaurant. They could be completely rude to the customer, but the decision to fire them would ultimately fall to the restaurant, not the offended customer.

 

The payment of wages therefore must go via the employer and then to the waiter, with all of the minimum wage laws applying. Transactions that don't go along the contractual route can only be charitable, and none of the restaurant's business.

Manners and social etiquette are never required contractually.

 

I prefer being able to pay for service, or be able to not pay for a lack of service. If you built the servers wages into food prices, as a customer you lose that control, and you're at the mercy of whoever is serving your food.

Economically, it's in everyone's best interest to have servers work for tips.

[Danqazmlp]

Sees All, Could you supply any proof for any of that, or provide the rationale behind many of the claims you made as I cannot see the links.

 

I have worked in the same job for many years (and know many, many others in the same situation) who have only had price rises with Minimum wages. Promotion and wage increass may be possible in fast moving jobs, but in lower paid and menial jobs, promotions come very rarely and opportunities to move up are not easy to come by.

 

EDIT: I do not believe that with equal minimum wages there is no direct feedback for the server. Complaints to the manager or the server themselves, refusal to pay for a meal or asking for a discount due to bad service is something which you could still do. You can also still tip if the server has done a good job, giving them a reward for working well.

Saw the original three month statistic in an economics book. Not sure which one, will have to dig it out of the attic when I get home.

 

However, this page suggests that 67% of full time workers get paid more than minimum wage within a year of starting work at minimum wage.

Also, the economics behind a price floor are well known.

 

But in reality, the price floor economics don't apply to minimum wages as long as they aren't at ridiculous amounts. In the UK, there isn't mass unemployment due to minimum wage because it isn't set at a level which is too high. If it can work here, there is no reason why it cannot work in America, as the economic systems of the country are surely very similar.

 

Economic theories are all well and good, but when it comes to reality, minimum wages work in many countries. I'm not saying they are perfect, but it is a better situation than people being purposefully short-changed and the rest of society, not the employer having to fill the gap in wages.

 

EDIT:

 

Manners and social etiquette are never required contractually.

 

I prefer being able to pay for service, or be able to not pay for a lack of service. If you built the servers wages into food prices, as a customer you lose that control, and you're at the mercy of whoever is serving your food.

Economically, it's in everyone's best interest to have servers work for tips.

 

I disagree with manners and social etiquette being required contractually. Now it may not specifically say it in a contract, but it will be expected of somebody who comes in contact with the public to be polite and keep to social etiquette. It would not be inconceivable for somebody to be fired for being rude to customers.

 

I still think you have control over your service with minimum wages, as you can refuse payment very easily if there is a problem, and can still tip if there is exceptional service. But 'ok' and average service is the least of what is expected in their job role and is what they are to be paid for.

[sees_all1]

Sees All, Could you supply any proof for any of that, or provide the rationale behind many of the claims you made as I cannot see the links.

 

I have worked in the same job for many years (and know many, many others in the same situation) who have only had price rises with Minimum wages. Promotion and wage increass may be possible in fast moving jobs, but in lower paid and menial jobs, promotions come very rarely and opportunities to move up are not easy to come by.

 

EDIT: I do not believe that with equal minimum wages there is no direct feedback for the server. Complaints to the manager or the server themselves, refusal to pay for a meal or asking for a discount due to bad service is something which you could still do. You can also still tip if the server has done a good job, giving them a reward for working well.

Saw the original three month statistic in an economics book. Not sure which one, will have to dig it out of the attic when I get home.

 

However, this page suggests that 67% of full time workers get paid more than minimum wage within a year of starting work at minimum wage.

Also, the economics behind a price floor are well known.

 

But in reality, the price floor economics don't apply to minimum wages as long as they aren't at ridiculous amounts. In the UK, there isn't mass unemployment due to minimum wage because it isn't set at a level which is too high. If it can work here, there is no reason why it cannot work in America, as the economic systems of the country are surely very similar.

 

Economic theories are all well and good, but when it comes to reality, minimum wages work in many countries. I'm not saying they are perfect, but it is a better situation than people being purposefully short-changed and the rest of society, not the employer having to fill the gap in wages.

 

I'm going to be brief, as this might be better suited to another topic.

Minimum wage laws are subject to the laws of supply and demand. They are literally the textbook example of a price floor. As shown time and again, a higher minimum wage means higher unemployment among unskilled workers. Also as proof, recessions hurt unskilled people looking for jobs more than skilled.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2048659/The-minimum-wage-pushing-youth-unemployment.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/10/no-labor-market-recession_n_456797.html

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/south-african-unemployment-and-the-minimum-wage

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/minimum_wage.htm

[jasignhagj]

But, is it contractually enforced?

 

Here in the UK if I understand correctly, whatever your payment method, whatever your hours and whatever the contract, you need to be being paid at least minimum wage as basic pay, otherwise certain government offices can get involved.

 

Can waiters in America for instance go to an official and explain that they don't contractually get paid minimum wage, therefore leading to a change in it?

 

If not, this should be the case.

It is in Canada at least. And I believe in the states, there is a minimum wage for waiters, it's just less than the "normal" minimum wage - they can't be paid less than that. I could be wrong though.

I think it depends on the province. Here in Manitoba waiters are paid minimum wage regardless of their tips.

[Sbrideau]

But, is it contractually enforced?

 

Here in the UK if I understand correctly, whatever your payment method, whatever your hours and whatever the contract, you need to be being paid at least minimum wage as basic pay, otherwise certain government offices can get involved.

 

Can waiters in America for instance go to an official and explain that they don't contractually get paid minimum wage, therefore leading to a change in it?

 

If not, this should be the case.

It is in Canada at least. And I believe in the states, there is a minimum wage for waiters, it's just less than the "normal" minimum wage - they can't be paid less than that. I could be wrong though.

I think it depends on the province. Here in Manitoba waiters are paid minimum wage regardless of their tips.

Same in New-Brunswick as far as I know.

[Zierro]

I always tip. Even if it's a [bleep]y waitress who expects you to think it's a privilege to take a seat in their restaurant, I make sure to scrape up a few pennies.

[Nomrombom]

I always tip. Even if it's a [bleep]y waitress who expects you to think it's a privilege to take a seat in their restaurant, I make sure to scrape up a few pennies.

 

They would rather you give nothing than give pennies. Might as well give them the finger too if you're going to do that.

[Zierro]

I always tip. Even if it's a [bleep]y waitress who expects you to think it's a privilege to take a seat in their restaurant, I make sure to scrape up a few pennies.

 

They would rather you give nothing than give pennies. Might as well give them the finger too if you're going to do that.

 

That was the point. We asked for a corner seat since it was pretty crowded and loud and she said (in a very snobbish tone) that it was for the manager's storage and no one could sit there. Then five minutes later an old lady came in, she seated her there, and then on top of it she had to give us a devious look.

[xSxqPowerx]

I tip because waiters/servers make less than minimum wage, with the expectation that the rest comes from tips. That, and I'm not a dick.

[the-whisky-bar]

i always tip at least 10%. i don't care about their attitude.

 

also, fast food restaurants have a tip box, do they not?

[Giordano]

i always tip at least 10%. i don't care about their attitude.

 

also, fast food restaurants have a tip box, do they not?

It's a donation box to some charity.

[Nomrombom]

Not always Giordano. I've seen plenty of tip jars/tip cups in fast food places like McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts. But they don't treat you like shit if you don't tip. It's basically a place to put that extra 14 cents change that you don't want to carry around.