The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Alg]

You'd have a point if you were locked to a "dual wield" class and thus had to train twice as much to be on par. Of course this is not the case and you can just use a lower tier offhand, or buy a maul until you get those extra tokens.

That's the problem, though. Instead of encouraging players to pick a combat style they like, it locks them in to picking the maul unless they really like dungeoneering or are willing to be less effective in combat until they double their experience.

 

I'm just thinking that it would bring the costs in line with those styles; as it is someone that prefers 2h weapons won't have to do nearly as much dungeoneering for the same weapon tier as someone who wants to use dual wielding or shields. You're paying a lot more for what should apparently be equal equipment.

[Estoc]

You'd have a point if you were locked to a "dual wield" class and thus had to train twice as much to be on par. Of course this is not the case and you can just use a lower tier offhand, or buy a maul until you get those extra tokens.

That's the problem, though. Instead of encouraging players to pick a combat style they like, it locks them in to picking the maul unless they really like dungeoneering or are willing to be less effective in combat until they double their experience.

 

I'm just thinking that it would bring the costs in line with those styles; as it is someone that prefers 2h weapons won't have to do nearly as much dungeoneering for the same weapon tier as someone who wants to use dual wielding or shields.

 

Your one hand weapon can also be used in the tank or dual wield style. You're buying half of a dual wield setup, and half of a tank setup for 200k tokens. With the maul you're buying the whole 2h setup for 200k tokens. If you decide you want to tank one day, you can grab your rapier and dfs. If you have a maul, you're kind of out of luck.

[Alg]

Your one hand weapon can also be used in the tank or dual wield style. You're buying half of a dual wield setup, and half of a tank setup for 200k tokens. With the maul you're buying the whole 2h setup for 200k tokens. If you decide you want to tank one day, you can grab your rapier and dfs. If you have a maul, you're kind of out of luck.

That's the problem. An entire level 80 weapon and shield set costs 400k tokens. An entire level 80 2h weapon set costs 200k tokens. It will cost at least 200k more to switch to a new style. The prices are fine in the regular game, but in the beta you just need more equipment. It wouldn't be a problem if there were more options for level 80 or even level 75, but for the most part chaotic equipment is your only option.

[Estoc]

Your one hand weapon can also be used in the tank or dual wield style. You're buying half of a dual wield setup, and half of a tank setup for 200k tokens. With the maul you're buying the whole 2h setup for 200k tokens. If you decide you want to tank one day, you can grab your rapier and dfs. If you have a maul, you're kind of out of luck.

That's the problem. An entire level 80 weapon and shield set costs 400k tokens. An entire level 80 2h weapon set costs 200k tokens. It will cost at least 200k more to switch to a new style. The prices are fine in the regular game, but in the beta you just need more equipment. It wouldn't be a problem if there were more options for level 80 or even level 75, but for the most part chaotic equipment is your only option.

 

And when you want to kill a boss that requires dual wielding, the maul guy will pay 400k tokens to get his setup, and the sword and shield guy will pay 200k. It evens out in the end and besides, anyone who is this serious about having the best gear (who doesn't want to use the enhanced excalibur because it's 5% lower dps than offhand rapier) will get more than one chaotic. The only way to make it "fair" is to make one handed chaotics half price, but then maul is the odd one out being 200k and less versatile. I think this is as good a balance as we're gonna get without making dual wielded rapiers a single item like d claws and charging 200k for them.

[Alg]

And when you want to kill a boss that requires dual wielding, the maul guy will pay 400k tokens to get his setup, and the sword and shield guy will pay 200k. It evens out in the end and besides, anyone who is this serious about having the best gear (who sees the value of a chaotic shield over dfs) will get more than one chaotic. The only way to make it "fair" is to make one handed chaotics half price, but then maul is the odd one out being 200k and less versatile. I think this is as good a balance as we're gonna get without making dual wielded rapiers a single item like d claws and charging 200k for them.

That's the big difference between the current game and the beta: In the main game, 200k per item was a good price because the average player didn't need more than one. Now, everybody but 2h users needs to buy another chaotic item to complete his set.

 

It also makes it easier to switch between combat styles - It would cost 200k to switch to and from 2h, and 100k to switch between dual wield and shield, instead of 400k to switch from 2h and 200k to switch between offhands. Covering the main three melee styles would only require 88 or so instead of 94 (weapon/shield/offhand/2h would be around 8m experience, minimum).

[Platinum_Myr]

The prices could use a little rebalancing, but I think it should be "maul = 300k" and main chaotic is 200k, offhand is 100k. (shields stay 200k, as it already cost 400k in main game to get a 1h chaotic + shield)

[Estoc]

And when you want to kill a boss that requires dual wielding, the maul guy will pay 400k tokens to get his setup, and the sword and shield guy will pay 200k. It evens out in the end and besides, anyone who is this serious about having the best gear (who sees the value of a chaotic shield over dfs) will get more than one chaotic. The only way to make it "fair" is to make one handed chaotics half price, but then maul is the odd one out being 200k and less versatile. I think this is as good a balance as we're gonna get without making dual wielded rapiers a single item like d claws and charging 200k for them.

That's the big difference between the current game and the beta: In the main game, 200k per item was a good price because the average player didn't need more than one. Now, everybody but 2h users needs to buy another chaotic item to complete his set.

 

It also makes it easier to switch between combat styles - It would cost 200k to switch to and from 2h, and 100k to switch between dual wield and shield, instead of 400k to switch from 2h and 200k to switch between offhands. Covering the main three melee styles would only require 88 or so instead of 94 (weapon/shield/offhand/2h would be around 8m experience, minimum).

 

In the end you're still spending 50% of the tokens for 90% of the item. That in my opinion is more unfair than having to use a shield 10% worse if that than a chaotic kite.

[Cheefoo]

I really wish they'd get rid of degrading on some armor and weapons. Do we really need to keep paying money to use our armor? Yes, you might say "its cuz of da ecomoney" but I'm sure the economy will do just fine without it. It's going to be especially annoying if you're dual-wielding chaotics. Twice the charge cost, not to mention the fact that you hit/get hit more in the new combat, so that might degrade them even faster.

[Estoc]

I really wish they'd get rid of degrading on some armor and weapons. Do we really need to keep paying money to use our armor? Yes, you might say "its cuz of da ecomoney" but I'm sure the economy will do just fine without it. It's going to be especially annoying if you're dual-wielding chaotics. Twice the charge cost, not to mention the fact that you hit/get hit more in the new combat, so that might degrade them even faster.

 

They should just pick one and either make everything degrade or nothing. It doesn't make sense that bronze armor gives you 0 protection but is invincible while Torva will deflect a cannonball or maul easily, but fall to pieces in 10 hours.

[Vezon Dash]

I'd rather pay for chaotics than pay 60m for BCP and Tass again.

[Platinum_Myr]

Degrading armor is supposed to be a balance to help increase power. I would personally rather have all armor degrade, as it makes sense to degrade. This combined with a unified central repair system would be appreciated. I don't like how everything that degrades does so differently and repairs or replaces at a different place.

[Sir_Squab]

I really wish they'd get rid of degrading on some armor and weapons. Do we really need to keep paying money to use our armor? Yes, you might say "its cuz of da ecomoney" but I'm sure the economy will do just fine without it. It's going to be especially annoying if you're dual-wielding chaotics. Twice the charge cost, not to mention the fact that you hit/get hit more in the new combat, so that might degrade them even faster.

 

What bugs me is how inconsistent it is tbh. Barrows degrades, bandos and such doesn't, yet in the new system Bandos and such is better? Then there's PVP gear which will degrade into dust but is worse then Nex armour?

 

Also, I'm thinking a maul might be best choice for new combat system. As you said, only one item to recharge instead of 2, and you only pay 200k. Especially true with magic - dual casting apparently goes through runes really fast, staffs are 2h and slower but hit higher to compensate.

 

I don't think it's bad if higher level armour degrades, but it needs to be consistent.

[muggiwhplar]

I really wish they'd get rid of degrading on some armor and weapons. Do we really need to keep paying money to use our armor? Yes, you might say "its cuz of da ecomoney" but I'm sure the economy will do just fine without it. It's going to be especially annoying if you're dual-wielding chaotics. Twice the charge cost, not to mention the fact that you hit/get hit more in the new combat, so that might degrade them even faster.

 

What bugs me is how inconsistent it is tbh. Barrows degrades, bandos and such doesn't, yet in the new system Bandos and such is better? Then there's PVP gear which will degrade into dust but is worse then Nex armour?

 

Also, I'm thinking a maul might be best choice for new combat system. As you said, only one item to recharge instead of 2, and you only pay 200k. Especially true with magic - dual casting apparently goes through runes really fast, staffs are 2h and slower but hit higher to compensate.

 

I don't think it's bad if higher level armour degrades, but it needs to be consistent.

 

I don't think consistency is important at all, as long as everything remains balanced.

[michel555555]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

[Platinum_Myr]

I really wish they'd get rid of degrading on some armor and weapons. Do we really need to keep paying money to use our armor? Yes, you might say "its cuz of da ecomoney" but I'm sure the economy will do just fine without it. It's going to be especially annoying if you're dual-wielding chaotics. Twice the charge cost, not to mention the fact that you hit/get hit more in the new combat, so that might degrade them even faster.

 

What bugs me is how inconsistent it is tbh. Barrows degrades, bandos and such doesn't, yet in the new system Bandos and such is better? Then there's PVP gear which will degrade into dust but is worse then Nex armour?

 

Also, I'm thinking a maul might be best choice for new combat system. As you said, only one item to recharge instead of 2, and you only pay 200k. Especially true with magic - dual casting apparently goes through runes really fast, staffs are 2h and slower but hit higher to compensate.

 

I don't think it's bad if higher level armour degrades, but it needs to be consistent.

 

I don't think consistency is important at all, as long as everything remains balanced.

 

I want balance and consistency.

[decebal]

Degrading armor is supposed to be a balance to help increase power. I would personally rather have all armor degrade, as it makes sense to degrade. This combined with a unified central repair system would be appreciated. I don't like how everything that degrades does so differently and repairs or replaces at a different place.

That's another can of beans Jagex wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. It makes sense, true, but it will look like Jagex is trying to copy the other MMO's again, and hurting our money pouches in the process.

 

On a different note, do we know how good the DG shields are in beta? They are, in essence, "chaotic armour", so a chaotic weapon-shield setup and dual wield would be 400k tokens, while a 2H Maul setup would still be only 200k. I don't understand how it would "even out in the end", as I find Monty's explanation a bit confusing. I'm getting the impression that he means that a mauler would have to buy a rapier anyway, but likewise would a guy using a rapier might need to buy a maul, as it has its own uses?

[Platinum_Myr]

I think he means that someone using dual-wield rapier or rapier+shield has to spend 400k, vs the 2h maul is only 200k for what is *supposed* to be a balanced setup.

[Alg]

I think he means that someone using dual-wield rapier or rapier+shield has to spend 400k, vs the 2h maul is only 200k for what is *supposed* to be a balanced setup.

Exactly.

[Hedgehog]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

No

[Leon S]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

No

 

Good fight mages with a CSB then? o.O

[Hedgehog]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

No

 

Good fight mages with a CSB then? o.O

CSB is useless because you don't need bloods/deaths anymore.

[michel555555]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

No

 

Good fight mages with a CSB then? o.O

CSB is useless because you don't need bloods/deaths anymore.

 

so its just elementals for maging now?

[Leon S]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

No

 

Good fight mages with a CSB then? o.O

CSB is useless because you don't need bloods/deaths anymore.

 

You still have to craft a lot of elemental runes if you have a CCS though.

 

Speaking about Magic, how does it fare in Dungeoneering compared to Melee and Ranged?

[Deaths Near]

I think he means that someone using dual-wield rapier or rapier+shield has to spend 400k, vs the 2h maul is only 200k for what is *supposed* to be a balanced setup.

 

That was Alg's point. I'll try to clarify Monty's. A 2h setup requires a 2h, a 1h/shield setup requires a mainhand and a shield, a dual wield setup requires a mainhand and an offhand. Someone who buys a maul will spend 200k tokens and have access to a full class, whereas the other two classes require 400k tokens to gain access to. This seems unbalanced at first, but is more balanced when considering subsequent purchases.

 

If the person who originally bought the maul wants to gain access to another class, they must spend 400k more tokens, for a total of 600k tokens spent and two classes. The person who spent 400k originally only needs to pay 200k more tokens to add another class, for a total of 600k tokens spent and two classes. This is because although they had to buy a mainhand weapon as well as a shield or offhand weapon for their first class, the mainhand weapon fulfills a single requirement for two classes.

[Alg]

Are staffs still 1handed in dg?

No

Fun fact: The wards from those slayer monsters are magic-class shields. Trololol and such.