Future Update Discussions

[Sorator]

 

^Good. Was such a weird derp to require just 1 for a cape that is about completing things. It'd be like giving someone the gold medal in a race because they were in the lead when they decided to stop 100m from the start of the 400m race.

I think it's a bit too luck-based for that.

 

If we have champ scrolls and court cases in, then there's no reason to keep Kal'gerion titles out.

[Ammako]

Sure, there already are many trim reqs that are extremely luck-based, but that doesn't really change the fact that luck-based reqs are not a good thing.

[Rena]

"I'm more of a completionist than you because I killed 204 demons and got all 5 titles and you've killed 5,300 demons and don't even have 1 title."

 

-- Luck based requirements

[brunokiller]

I didn't like killing them much, but this is better than champ scrolls. At least they give a pretty decent profit.

[Rena]

I've killed more demons without a title than I have most of my champ scroll mobs for a champ scroll.

 

4,000+~ demons and counting.

 

I got the majority of my champ scrolls in <3,000 kills

[muggiwhplar]

I've killed more demons without a title than I have most of my champ scroll mobs for a champ scroll.

 

4,000+~ demons and counting.

 

I got the majority of my champ scrolls in <3,000 kills

 

Odds for champ scrolls are 1 in 5000

 

[qfc]317-318-288-65354165[/qfc]

[Rena]

 

I've killed more demons without a title than I have most of my champ scroll mobs for a champ scroll.

 

4,000+~ demons and counting.

 

I got the majority of my champ scrolls in <3,000 kills

 

Odds for champ scrolls are 1 in 5000

 

[qfc]317-318-288-65354165[/qfc]

 

 

I think you missed my point. I'm 100% aware of the odds of a champ scroll and I killed 36,000~ Mummies for that scroll (it was my longest one)

 

What I was pointing out however is that killing 36,000 Mummies or killing 1 Mummy shouldn't dictate who is more of a completionist. Luck should never play such a large role in completion.

 

To show how unfair it can be:

I'd love for Phoenix pet to be a trim req. Would love to see the 600+ days of rage some people have when obtaining theirs (it took me 612 days to obtain my 1st Phoenix).

 

Some people would already have it. Others would obtain it within a day or week. Some would go months. And the very unlucky few would go over an entire year.

 

Of course the people who get lucky and complete it within a day are obviously superior completionist to those who have done the activity daily for over a year. How silly of anyone to think otherwise!

[helring]

When such a large portion of the game is dictated by RNG, it would be ridiculous to leave out a req merely because it has a major luck component. Especially when you can keep trying repeatedly. The issue with the phoenix is not the luck component, it is the time restriction where you can only try once per day combined with the RNG. Phoenix is not discounted from comp or trim solely because it is a luck item.

[Saradomin_Mage]

"I'm more of a completionist than you because I killed 204 demons and got all 5 titles and you've killed 5,300 demons and don't even have 1 title."

 

-- Luck based requirements

You really should be doing trim reqs for yourself rather than to "compete" with others, or you'll just wear yourself out with posts like this.

[Ammako]

I think you missed the point, Gwyn.

 

And I reiterate, helring: just because a large portion of the game is dictated by RNG doesn't mean we *have* to include RNG-based things in everything.

[Yoko Kurama]

Making it so you need all 5 titles for the trim requirement is so stupid. I say this as someone who has all 5 titles (took me a total of 15 hours for all 5, stretched over the course of a week, so I basically only did it casually). I did it because I liked the title, not because of trim (which I don't intend to go for). All because of a bunch of saddistic whinners who think that everything should be a trim requirement, otherwise it's not legit or whatever. Why does it have to be a trim requirement? Just to torture people with a stupid luck-based requirement?

 

I like the idea of the title being exclusive, with only a few people having the title, and only those who like the title itself going out to hunt for them. Instead it's a trim requirement then hundreds if not thousands will grind it out for it, because they will be compelled to. Same with the 'Of Daemonheim' title (which I also have), and which I got because I actually liked the title (dungeoneering is one of my favourite skills, or was pre-EoC). Let people like me hunt for stuff like this casually because we actually like it, and leave the trimmers alone, it rewards people like me for our quirky tastes, and it doesn't force our play-style onto others. It's a win-win.

 

Some people say that trim is by definition meant to have extreme requirements, which is sort of true, but even extreme things, including trim, have limits. Which is why, for instance, it doesn't require 120 in all skills or 200M in all skills - that even trim has requirements is self-evident. There's no reason why the titles have to be a trim requirement. 

[Rena]

 

"I'm more of a completionist than you because I killed 204 demons and got all 5 titles and you've killed 5,300 demons and don't even have 1 title."

 

-- Luck based requirements

You really should be doing trim reqs for yourself rather than to "compete" with others, or you'll just wear yourself out with posts like this.

 

I don't do it directly to compete, but I think it's stupid to give a gold medal to 3rd place so to speak.

 

It puts "completion" on a bias. It isn't completing the content, it's being lucky with the content. Which, in my opinion, means it shouldn't be a requirement. Completion should be a very hard defined time and effort input. 

 

I don't care if the req takes 80+ hours. But if it does, it should take 80+ hours for everyone, not just people who are unlucky.

 

@Yoko

I have 4,000~ demon kills, which has taken me a bit over 40 hours. I have 0 titles - and as long as 1 is going to be a requirement, I think all 5 need to be the requirement. I also support "The Defeater" title for Trim (although I don't Vorago and a friend let me leech off his clan to get my 1 required mauling) . While I understand your view about quirky titles - they don't get devalued much if everyone has it but nobody really uses it. It's still rare to see if nobody who has it actually uses it!

 

Of course, I don't think it should be a requirement at all. But I highly doubt they are going to remove it, so I think it needs to be all 5.

[Steph]

I don't think of it as a first/second/third race. It's more of a treasure hunt and everyone who completes it has an equal chance of finding items and everyone gets the same reward for finishing

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

"I'm more of a completionist than you because I killed 204 demons and got all 5 titles and you've killed 5,300 demons and don't even have 1 title."

 

-- Luck based requirements

You really should be doing trim reqs for yourself rather than to "compete" with others, or you'll just wear yourself out with posts like this.

 

I don't do it directly to compete, but I think it's stupid to give a gold medal to 3rd place so to speak.

 

It puts "completion" on a bias. It isn't completing the content, it's being lucky with the content. Which, in my opinion, means it shouldn't be a requirement. Completion should be a very hard defined time and effort input. 

 

I don't care if the req takes 80+ hours. But if it does, it should take 80+ hours for everyone, not just people who are unlucky.

 

@Yoko

I have 4,000~ demon kills, which has taken me a bit over 40 hours. I have 0 titles - and as long as 1 is going to be a requirement, I think all 5 need to be the requirement. I also support "The Defeater" title for Trim (although I don't Vorago and a friend let me leech off his clan to get my 1 required mauling) . While I understand your view about quirky titles - they don't get devalued much if everyone has it but nobody really uses it. It's still rare to see if nobody who has it actually uses it!

 

Of course, I don't think it should be a requirement at all. But I highly doubt they are going to remove it, so I think it needs to be all 5.

 

 

Why do they have to all be a requirement if 1 is a requirement? I don't see any reason for this. As I have already established there are limitations even to the trim cape, so why can't 1 title only be limitation as well?

[Ammako]

I don't think of it as a first/second/third race. It's more of a treasure hunt and everyone who completes it has an equal chance of finding items and everyone gets the same reward for finishing

I guess if you look at it this way.

[Quasar]

I disagree that the defeater title should be a trim requirement.  Vorago hardmode is already subject to enough drama without having to deal with hundreds of desperate trimmers who want to leech the title.  What people don't realize is that most players who buy or leech the title are already fairly competent voragoers.  The real difficulty with hardmode is building and coordinating a team to get everyone mauls.  also you basically all need seismics.

 

Imo the warmonger title should not have been a trim req, but the bloodchiller title should have been normal comp.  There really should not be any content played only by trimmers for the sake of trim.  If we look at the most time intensive trim requirements, they all do have some other merits (players can get rank 1 esteem and complete artisan's workshop in the course of normal gameplay, MA rings are best in slot for single class crit, people honestly did used to wear chompy hats, and there are so many people at castle wars for so long that it's sort of a special exception.)

[Saradomin_Mage]

Why do they have to all be a requirement if 1 is a requirement? I don't see any reason for this. As I have already established there are limitations even to the trim cape, so why can't 1 title only be limitation as well?

Making the trim req of only one title out of five means that the content is only partially completed, which doesn't really fall in line with other trim reqs. It's like making the other trim reqs only require rank 10 esteem, or the single white feather chompy hat, or getting rank 1 in Mobilising Armies, or discovering the Skull region, or earn the beginner's tackle box etc. It doesn't make sense when it's a cape that's about completion, and should either ignore the content completely or demand full completion of it.

 

I think you missed the point, Gwyn.

 

And I reiterate, helring: just because a large portion of the game is dictated by RNG doesn't mean we *have* to include RNG-based things in everything.

There's no need to include it, but if they do it doesn't make sense to make the trim req involve only half-completing it.

 

It puts "completion" on a bias. It isn't completing the content, it's being lucky with the content.

??? Isn't unlocking all 5 titles completing the content? It doesn't matter how short it takes someone else, or how long it takes you - you just keep doing it until it's finished.

[Sy_Accursed]

I agree with the notion that RNG shouldn't be a part of the trim (see previous debates on the champs scrolls), however I do think its good they are changing it from 1 to all 5 because, as Gwyn points out it is a COMPLETIONIST cape, not a 'done a bit of it cape' or a 'tried it and gave up cape' if it is going to require the titles at all it ought to require completing the content aka getting all 5.

[Saradomin_Mage]

I agree with the notion that RNG shouldn't be a part of the trim (see previous debates on the champs scrolls)

I guess it depends on how bad the RNG is. Champion scrolls are 1/5,000, and Kal'gerion scrolls are probably 1/512, which can be brutal. However, no one really complained about Shattered Heart (1/128 approx) or the Tuska mask.

[Sy_Accursed]

I definitely think its to do with the balance of the RNG more so than just pure no RNG at all, ever.

 

I can't comment on titles having not attempted them at all, but champ scrolls rarity to me is too far because you can invest so much time and money and thousands upon thousands of kills into it to no avail just because of bad luck. Where as shattered heart and tuska are ok because whilst RNG they are pretty common, most people I know seem to get 1+ mask pieces per task (took me 2 tasks and 3 post-99 kills) which isn't bad at all and shattered heart similarly may have variance in it, but you can pretty solidly churn out all 30 rocks in 1 decent day of play, a bit over 1 day if luck is slightly against you.

 

But of course as covered in another thread I don't think champ scrolls necessarily need to be more common or made easy to acquire, just it'd be nice to have a minigame armour style rarity creep so that there is a line in the sand at some point.

[Yoko Kurama]

@Gwyn,

Making the trim req of only one title out of five means that the content is only partially completed, which doesn't really fall in line with other trim reqs. It's like making the other trim reqs only require rank 10 esteem, or the single white feather chompy hat, or getting rank 1 in Mobilising Armies, or discovering the Skull region, or earn the beginner's tackle box etc. It doesn't make sense when it's a cape that's about completion, and should either ignore the content completely or demand full completion of it.

I think you're taking what is only a name too seriously. Yes, it's called the [trimmed]-'Completionist' Cape, but at the end of the day, it's obvious that it isn't actually about completing the game (there are hundreds of things that many would think of as 'completing' the game, that are not trim requirements, and for which there are no plans to make them trim requirements).

 

Making something a trim requirement only devalues it by forcing a couple hundred people who are obsessed with a gold trim to do it, rather than having people only complete it for its intrinsic value. I'd actually be in favour of more requirements such as 1/5 titles for future content, where trimmers are required to do a certain part of the content, but not all of it, leaving the rest of the content to stand on its own merit, and on its own instrinsic value. As it currently stands, the trim/comp capes often function as a crutch for Jagex who arbitrarily use it to force people to do lazily put out content which would have otherwise been dead.

[V O R K]

@Gwyn,

Making the trim req of only one title out of five means that the content is only partially completed, which doesn't really fall in line with other trim reqs. It's like making the other trim reqs only require rank 10 esteem, or the single white feather chompy hat, or getting rank 1 in Mobilising Armies, or discovering the Skull region, or earn the beginner's tackle box etc. It doesn't make sense when it's a cape that's about completion, and should either ignore the content completely or demand full completion of it.

I think you're taking what is only a name too seriously. Yes, it's called the [trimmed]-'Completionist' Cape, but at the end of the day, it's obvious that it isn't actually about completing the game (there are hundreds of things that many would think of as 'completing' the game, that are not trim requirements, and for which there are no plans to make them trim requirements).

 

Making something a trim requirement only devalues it by forcing a couple hundred people who are obsessed with a gold trim to do it, rather than having people only complete it for its intrinsic value. I'd actually be in favour of more requirements such as 1/5 titles for future content, where trimmers are required to do a certain part of the content, but not all of it, leaving the rest of the content to stand on its own merit, and on its own instrinsic value. As it currently stands, the trim/comp capes often function as a crutch for Jagex who arbitrarily use it to force people to do lazily put out content which would have otherwise been dead.

 

@Gwyn,

Making the trim req of only one title out of five means that the content is only partially completed, which doesn't really fall in line with other trim reqs. It's like making the other trim reqs only require rank 10 esteem, or the single white feather chompy hat, or getting rank 1 in Mobilising Armies, or discovering the Skull region, or earn the beginner's tackle box etc. It doesn't make sense when it's a cape that's about completion, and should either ignore the content completely or demand full completion of it.

I think you're taking what is only a name too seriously. Yes, it's called the [trimmed]-'Completionist' Cape, but at the end of the day, it's obvious that it isn't actually about completing the game (there are hundreds of things that many would think of as 'completing' the game, that are not trim requirements, and for which there are no plans to make them trim requirements).

 

Making something a trim requirement only devalues it by forcing a couple hundred people who are obsessed with a gold trim to do it, rather than having people only complete it for its intrinsic value. I'd actually be in favour of more requirements such as 1/5 titles for future content, where trimmers are required to do a certain part of the content, but not all of it, leaving the rest of the content to stand on its own merit, and on its own instrinsic value. As it currently stands, the trim/comp capes often function as a crutch for Jagex who arbitrarily use it to force people to do lazily put out content which would have otherwise been dead.

QFT

[Urza285]

Anyone care to speculate what the new treasure hunter items are for?

 

There are skull, zaros, golden chinchompa, cabbage, stone of jas and large...

 

- Gnome balls?

 

Im guessing playing gnomeball 'in style' as they typically say?

[Sy_Accursed]

Whatever they are doing definitely seems to be gnome ball related with the gnome baller shorts and torso in the mix as well - althought theres also saph, emer ruby and magic golem outfits...

[Saradomin_Mage]

@Gwyn,

Making the trim req of only one title out of five means that the content is only partially completed, which doesn't really fall in line with other trim reqs. It's like making the other trim reqs only require rank 10 esteem, or the single white feather chompy hat, or getting rank 1 in Mobilising Armies, or discovering the Skull region, or earn the beginner's tackle box etc. It doesn't make sense when it's a cape that's about completion, and should either ignore the content completely or demand full completion of it.

I think you're taking what is only a name too seriously. Yes, it's called the [trimmed]-'Completionist' Cape, but at the end of the day, it's obvious that it isn't actually about completing the game (there are hundreds of things that many would think of as 'completing' the game, that are not trim requirements, and for which there are no plans to make them trim requirements).

 

Making something a trim requirement only devalues it by forcing a couple hundred people who are obsessed with a gold trim to do it, rather than having people only complete it for its intrinsic value. I'd actually be in favour of more requirements such as 1/5 titles for future content, where trimmers are required to do a certain part of the content, but not all of it, leaving the rest of the content to stand on its own merit, and on its own instrinsic value. As it currently stands, the trim/comp capes often function as a crutch for Jagex who arbitrarily use it to force people to do lazily put out content which would have otherwise been dead.

 

Imo it should be an all-or-nothing thing because otherwise it doesn't make sense. When MCL designed the cape with the HLF community it basically was supposed to be the cape that was about completing the game. Just because some trim-worth requirements along the way were dropped or missed out doesn't mean that future trim-worthy requirements should be excluded; it should still attempt to encompass as many things as possible.

 

It would have probably been for the best if the whole requirement was removed from the cape, though, given how much crying I've seen on the HLF.