Finally someone argues with me. Took quite a long time. =\ Let's get to this, shall we?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Quotes butchered to seriously cut down on post-length)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not neccessarily. I'd argue that Jagex has made it completely impossible to decieve a player using that luring method. Y'know that giant warning screen that pops up when someone enters the wild? Yea, that Jagex informing your victim that you are lying to them. In which case, they must have some foreknowledge of your deceitfulness, and come to you anyway. That is simple greed - which is what oziach/tree luring thrives on. Another player's greed for "more pixels."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your view here strikes me as blaming the victim, which I seriously don't want to do. It's true that lurers use the prospect of a high price to drag sellers into the wilderness, but I'd venture to say this shouldn't be labeled as the "seller's greed". It is the greed of the seller (if you must put it that way), but it isn't malicious greed, such as that of the lurer, but a more innocent kind, one of someone just trying to sell/buy something for as good of a price as they can get. The part that I have bolded, in addition, is simply untrue; you can't just say that since the warning screen is there, obviously the seller/buyer is aware of the lure attempt, and you also can't say that it's their fault because of the screen. The warning screen really doesn't help - if you've been lured before, you'd know that they have ways of making you disregard it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But would you want someone treating you this way? Would you want someone spending their time actively trying to lie to you so that they can flaunt around newfound pixels that they've stolen from you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure.. Go for it.. I for one have played this game long enough, or simply been alive long enough, to generally know when someone is trying to deceive me. There is a reason sayings like "Too good to be true" and "No such thing as a free lunch" exist in this world --- its because they are true. Personally, I'd rather be taught a lesson like that online than in the real world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You may not be, but I get angered at the idea that there are people out there who spend the majority of their time trying to steal things from other people over the internet. A level that petty is just low, and for that I'm quite dissapointed with the community of RuneScapers that supports these actions (the various fansites/forums, etc.) You make it seem like they're just wasting their time with it, so it doesn't matter. And maybe they are; yet the idea of it still stands in their minds, which concerns me more than any amount of items that they win from this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, again, I'd like to stay away from blaming the victims in this situation. If someone is ignorant enough at the time to fall for a lure, it doesn't mean you can simply blame them for it. Not everyone is as experienced and mature as you are, and as such, it is inevitable that people will fall for lures. This, however, does not justify the luring in itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Every pixel you steal by scamming someone, every fake unit that is transferred, is a manifestation of that person's time. These pixels represent the time that person has toiled away at this game, and by scamming someone of them, you are robbing this person of their time, their boring work put into this game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd venture to argue that GENERALLY, this is untrue. Most people nowadays who are stupid enough to still fall for these lures fall under two categories:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People who have played since RSC or before, and just happened to be lucky enough to keep one of these items stashed in their bank before they quit/went on hiatus/etc, but obviously have not been putting in the time others have since they stashed their rares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People who have friends who gave them items when their friend quit. Drop party, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Generally, a player who has earnestly put the time and effort into accumulating the massive amount of wealth it takes to own these items, has enough knowledge of the game to know better than to step into the wild with it. MOST of the people who get lured nowadays are those who HAVE NOT put the work into their pixels, they achieved them through some other means (and who is to say those were legit methods).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a reason people lure low level on their lvl 70's-80's, because these are the same levels as people who don't earnestly deserve their rares as they haven't put the time and effort into getting them. When was the last time you saw a 120+ tree luring? To my recent recollection, everytime I've walked past a lure they've been in the lower 80's, supporting the idea that those who have actually put their time into this game are the ones who aren't being lured because they know better - and thus deserve and have earned their pixels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you wanted to argue the low combat due to merchanting/skilling -- you'd still have to invest massive amounts of time and effort into knowing the ins/outs of Runescape, and as a merchant you'd come across smaller scams long before you got lured for a santa+ and ought to have a general idea that "too good to be true" is a reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd actually say that the majority of people who fall for lures are not those who fall under the two categories that you mentioned (or, at least, the second category). While it's possible that there are a lot of people who have horded rares, the odds of them selling said rares and getting lured are low - most hoarded rares are either still being hoarded, or are by now in the market (note that this is speculation, and I have absolutely no idea about the truth behind this matter, but to me this is the most logical assumption). As for the second category, I really don't think that there are a whole lot of people selling on the market who fall into that category (again, this is speculation, as neither of us know the true numbers behind this, yet it is to me the most logical assumption). I dothink that the majority of the people selling rares/buying rares right now are, for the sellers, merchants who have spent a large amount of their time mustering the cash, and for the buyers, honest people who happen to have ammassed that much cash and have spent a huge amount of their time getting said cash. As for the merchants, it's true, most of them are wise to it, but since the fact of the matter is that many, many merchants do get lured, we must assume that not everyone is wary enough to not trust these people. As for the buyers, well, the same thing stands; many buyers get lured, and as this is usually their first time buying something of this magnitude, they may not be wise to the trick either. I wish everyone had the support of fansites like this communities does and could learn the tricks of the wild, but they don't. Not everyone who spends a good deal of their time earning the cash can recognize these tricks, and I think while you make a good point that the person should be able to, in reality, there are a massive amount of people who don't, as seen by the huge posts of lures on the RSC Graveyard section.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to stop there before this paragraph becomes a mass of incomprehension, so I desperately hope you grasp what I mean here. The last point is such a frustrating one to make, as neither of us do, or ever will, know which category the majority of the people being lured fall into. I suppose we'll never come to an agreement, as I have a completely different logical assumption on the matter from you, which changes my entier perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That post took about 30 minutes... thanks for the wonderful argument. =) If you wish to take it further, please, I implore you to retort to my arguments here, but for fear of being yelled at for a massive quote-tower, I'm going to refrain from continuing the debate on my end. I'd absolutely love to hear your response to my current post, however.

Seems like the major argument for lurers here is: It's just pixels. If they are just pixels, why the hell are you so desperate to get them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other argument: It is the victim's fault for falling for it. Honestly, you deserve to be shot for that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's compare a luring situation to real life situation,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are walking home at night, you know it isn't the safest neighbourhood in town. All of a sudden, a shady figure comes up behind you, beats you to the ground and takes all your valuables.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whose fault is it your being mugged? Not yours, you didn't beat yourself up and steal your own stuff. You go to the police and report it. Are they going to arrest you because it was your fault for going into the area? No, probably not suprisingly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lurers are the scum of the earth. And I would not be suprised if you all went on to become con-men or mugger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On another note, I myself have never been lured. Thanks to the fact I don't have a ranked defence or prayer lvl so they can't know my cb lvl without ever seeing me.

When i watch luring videos, the ppl that die seems so sad yelling out stuff like, no! plz!

 

 

 

But its kinda funny

Good job, Tip it staff, this was needed for these forums..

Tbh if you let people post kill pics of full iron you should let people post lures. =;

This is quite a controversial issue, and I applaud TIF on taking a stance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, you may argue they are given a warning screen. You may argue that it's only a game. And yet, does this make it ethical? Let's think about it earnestly here. By luring a seller into the wilderness, you are lying to someone, taking from them their items that they honestly are just trying to sell, and then (usually) laughing at them/gloating about it on the forums. By Jagex's definition, this is scamming; it is decieving another player for your own personal benefit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a case of ethics, we can see that this is, obviously, an unethical thing to do. And yet, it is true; ethics are not absolute laws. I am not denying to the reader that ethics do not have to be followed. But would you want someone treating you this way? Would you want someone spending their time actively trying to lie to you so that they can flaunt around newfound pixels that they've stolen from you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, the last, and least backed-up arguement: It's only a game. Yes. It is a game. But it is not only a game. Every pixel you steal by scamming someone, every fake unit that is transferred, is a manifestation of that person's time. These pixels represent the time that person has toiled away at this game, and by scamming someone of them, you are robbing this person of their time, their boring work put into this game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You all arguing against me are right. There's no law against it, and no one is stopping you. Yet please, think of the person behind the other monitor. Think of their emotion as you steal hours of their life from them. Just because no one can see your face on the internet doesn't justify doing this to real people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ My two cents on this subject. I dunno, I may be wrong, but I sure as hell have a pretty good argument going, if I do say so myself.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, your saying its scamming becuse of personal benifit? So if i lure someone and drop their items, its not scamming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the ethnical part, not all of us are religious :boohoo: -.- :roll:

Its there fault there stupid enough to not read the wildy sign :?

Its there fault there stupid enough to not read the wildy sign :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For ease on my fingers, I'll simply copy and paste here from my previous post...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, you may argue they are given a warning screen. You may argue that it's only a game. And yet, does this make it ethical? Let's think about it earnestly here. By luring a seller into the wilderness, you are lying to someone, taking from them their items that they honestly are just trying to sell, and then (usually) laughing at them/gloating about it on the forums. By Jagex's definition, this is scamming; it is decieving another player for your own personal benefit.

Not to call out ye olde tip.it staff, but luring someone is so much different than changing an item in a trade. They get a huge sign warning them about the wilderness, which imo places 100% blame on the person who's lured.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You also get a second trade screen..

ok if luring is bad then isnt camping bad too? they just seem like there two in the same.

Well, your saying its scamming becuse of personal benifit? So if i lure someone and drop their items, its not scamming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the ethnical part, not all of us are religious :boohoo: -.- :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To start, ethics have nothing to do with religion, whatsoever. Because I'm just not half as articulate as those darned dictionaries:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Taken from M-W.com, the Merriam-Webster's official site)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Main entry: eth-ic

 

 

 

Pronunciation: 'e-thik

 

 

 

Function: noun

 

 

 

Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values -- often used in plural but sing. or plural in constr. bplural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group c : a guiding philosophy d : a consciousness of moral importance

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, ethics are those unwritten laws that state "thou shalt not be a jerk." When I reffer to ethics, I mean in a moral sense, saying that doing something that is unethical is doing something that harms another, or is not just, in a cosmic sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To your first point: you misunderstand me completely. =\ I'm not saying "it's scamminbg because of personal benefit", I'm saying it's scamming because you're lying to and hurting (not just in the game; I'm reffering to emotionally) another player in a way that benefits you. You're decieving them, harming another human being, simply so that you can get a stack of yellow dots. That was what I was saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ghostisalive: What do you mean by camping? Like, spawn camping? I was under the impression that that was a tactic used only in FPS'. =P

So Jagex says luring is not illegal. Who is tipit to disagree with them on the rules of their own game?

So Jagex says luring is not illegal. Who is tipit to disagree with them on the rules of their own game?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex's definition of scamming, available in the Knowledge Base:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scams come in many forms, but the fundamental similarity is the acquisition of another playerÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s items through misinformation, confusion and pressure, or by taking advantage of basic trust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That seems to fit the definition of luring, no? "Acquisitioning" another player's items by convincing the player that you're buying/selling something (misinformation), then killing them when they get into the wilderness to trade with you (taking advantage of basic trust)?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I asked Jagex about it around half a year ago, and the response I got said that luring was not permitted. However, I have seen screenshots of different mods saying different things; even Jagex can't decide what do do with this one. We cannot turn to them for the answer, as they obviously cannot internally make up their minds, therefore we should turn to their list of rules. I'm pretty sure luring fits right under there with scamming, as it fits the definition given by Jagex.

Mod Burgess

 

 

 

Jagex Mod

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

22-Feb-2007 19:34:39

 

 

 

Last edited on 22-Feb-2007 19:35:06 by Mod Burgess

 

 

 

Luring in to the Wilderness

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We'd like to explain that Luring in to the Wilderness is not against the rules of the game. This is because we feel that the dangers of the Wilderness are well signposted. The warning screen before entering the Wilderness clearly explains that any player that enters the Wilderness is in danger of being killed and losing items.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are trading near or in the Wilderness then it is important that you consider the documented dangers. You are at risk of being lured and player killed, which could lead to you losing any items that you are carrying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are trading then we recommend that you avoid areas like the Wilderness, Edgeville and north Varrock. If you are uncomfortable with the arrangements of a trade then try and change them or cancel the offer. If you choose to trade in one of these areas then you do so at your own risk. It should be noted that there is never a reason for a trade to take place specifically in the Wilderness, and it is advised to refuse any such offers if they are not willing to trade outside of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite the fact that Luring is not against the rules, it is not in the spirit of the game. We ask any player interested in Luring to take this in to consideration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nuff said.

Seems like the major argument for lurers here is: It's just pixels. If they are just pixels, why the hell are you so desperate to get them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

very valid point

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other argument: It is the victim's fault for falling for it. Honestly, you deserve to be shot for that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

that shows no conclusive reasoning and has no support, and isn't valid, although i may add i agree :thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are walking home at night, you know it isn't the safest neighbourhood in town. All of a sudden, a shady figure comes up behind you, beats you to the ground and takes all your valuables.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whose fault is it your being mugged? Not yours, you didn't beat yourself up and steal your own stuff. You go to the police and report it. Are they going to arrest you because it was your fault for going into the area? No, probably not suprisingly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lurers are the scum of the earth. And I would not be suprised if you all went on to become con-men or mugger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ya, that really isn't luring, more like going to a store where there is a really good sale, then getting killed and having the money taken off your dead body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

my 2 cents on the ingame warning (which is the ONLY thing lurers have going on their behalf) is that technichally, the lurer isn't doing anything "against the rules" but stooping to that level of "JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN..." well, we wont go there.

i like luring :twisted:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but not much people fall for it nowadays... :evil:

The players falling for it are the new or young players. They are less or unexperienced and do not know where exactly the line is where wilderness begins. You can argue that there are signs and a pop up screen. However the pop up screen pops up befor wildy and you can walk past it for quite a while befor actualy going into wildernes (edgeville bank to the bridge by example) However once you passed this sign, the sign wont pop up anymore when you actualy go into wildy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WHAT TO DO: make it so that one can sees with one look on the screen where wildy starts and what square is wildy and what one isnt. For all I care they draw a big line on the ground.

 

 

 

Then they need to make the warning message pop up the moment you actualy are about to cross the line of wilderness and that pop up should stop all actions. including trades, following, running, walking, every movement should be stopped by this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they fix all that, then I would have less problems with it, because you actualy tried to warn people that that is a dangerous area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It does not of course say anything about the ethic of trying to lure people. What do you do when you lure? You make a plan how you can deceive some one and persuade some one to go to an area where he is vulnarable. To gain his trust you lie and deceive, you hide the trap, you fool the player only to gain as much of his items as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex says it is not in the spirit of the game. It sounds like "you should be nice to eachother. And if you are not nice to eachother ... then.... I will stand here and watch you not being nice!!"

 

 

 

It would bug me less if the lurers would actualy target more experienced players, but they target new unexperienced and youg players. It comes very close to bullying, picking on the little one. Why don't they try it with some one of their own "size"? I would ave thought it would be jagex role to protect the new player from this, but instead they clearly send the message that they do not care.

that's ridiculous. i got lured once and lost 400k. i think that if that person has tricked me, they deserve the money and deserve the right to put it on tip.it's forums.

It depends on how the lure is done, if someone dropped 10k in the wildy and some dude with a santa picks it up and gets ice barraged, it's his own fault. But if the lurer says it is 20m then it's scamming.

 

 

 

I mostly don't feel sorry for people who get scammed like that since it's their own fault, the only problem is that often little kids who are like 7 years old are the ones getting scammed, that is sad though.

that's ridiculous. i got lured once and lost 400k. i think that if that person has tricked me, they deserve the money and deserve the right to put it on tip.it's forums.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

im start hanging around you mmmk?

This is like saying do not post any videos or pictures of you using protection prayers or something. Outrageous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh please. Prayer is a skill that raises cb and was engineered into the game. Luring is taking advantage of other people.

This is like saying do not post any videos or pictures of you using protection prayers or something. Outrageous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So very true...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh please. Prayer is a skill that raises cb and was engineered into the game. Luring is taking advantage of other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It does not raise your combat, it make you defend attack or hit more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh please. Prayer is a skill that raises cb and was engineered into the game. Luring is taking advantage of other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It does not raise your combat, it make you defend attack or hit more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

he means getting prayer LEVELS raises your combat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, lord is right, the kid who gave that example wasn't thinking straight, the 2 are nothing alike

We've come up with a decision on luring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If luring is used to mean the pking tactic of drawing someone in the wild to your group (however one personally feels about the honor of it) it can be considered a pking tactic since the confrontation and the chase leading to the group took place in the wild.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we are referring to trade scams in which a player is misled to go to a place where they can be pk'd when they came in good faith of selling an item then that is not allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This isn't explicitly illegal in game and it is really something that people should be smarter than to fall for. That being said, glorifiying and bragging about it is no different than bragging about switching a Guthans spear for leafbladed. The latter case would not be allowed, likewise someone should not be boasting about the phat which they received in an illgotten way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We will lock any thread found to be breaking these rules here in the Graveyard. In addition, please help by reporting videos that break this rule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there are any questions, please post them here. Thanks. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=D>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know the volunteer forum moderators on the Jagex's RuneScape Forums would applaud Tip.It & the Moderators here for their strong stance against something that is clearly "not in the spirit of the game."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We all are working hard to fight the good fight for the spirit of good & fair game-play in RuneScape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards, Fey.