Flag holding in cw, Cheating or not?

[Danqazmlp]

Wev'e all been in that situation, your in castle wars and the opposing team has got thier own flag somewere protected by what seems like an army of people. Its almost impossible to get the flag from them unless you have your own army of high lvls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now this happening completely stops one team from scoring, and unless the same happens on the other side of the field, allowes the team holding thier flag to get a big lead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now some would call this cheating because they are just making one team totally unable to score, and say it is unfair as the flag will never be safed, taking away the whole 'Castle wars' point, making it more 'Field wars'. These people would usually suggest the flag maybe being auto safed after a few minutes by the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But some would also say that it's just a strategy that the better players at cw have mastered to help them win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally i use flag holding all the time in cw to win, but i do feel its a bit unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So is it cheating or not in your opinions?

[armadillo48]

IMO, it's a legitimate way to win CW. Both teams are capable of holding their flag and losing it too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's no easy task to get the flag either, it's not simply a case of barraging the poo outta the flag taker, i score against barragers the whole time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It takes good teamwork, smart cading and a well prepared team.

[Solidus_77]

It is legitimate. If the enemy gets hold of their own flag it's because you screwed up somehow. You made a mistake and pay the consequences

[dargonhuman]

False; just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. It ruins the fun for everyone else.

 

 

 

I'm of the opinion that it's better to lose fairly than to win unfairly. I don't mind losing to a superior opponent because my skills weren't up to snuff. I do mind losing to a superior opponent because I weasled my way out of a fair contest.

 

 

 

Holding your own flag in cw is cheating because you've eliminated any chance for the opposing team to score. Just because one or two morons on their team screwed up, it doesn't mean the entire team has to suffer for that. If given a chance, other team members could do far better, but by holding your own flag, you've taken away that chance, and any chance for a fair fight.

 

 

 

It'd be like in Baseball if the first baseman caught the ball, then just held onto it for the rest of the inning; the at-bat team wouldn't have a chance to score any runs because the pitcher would have nothing to throw at the next batter, and even if he did, the first baseman would be guaranteed to get the batter out because 1) he's got the ball, and 2) he's already at the base, whereas the batter has to run the 40-or-so feet to get there. It'd be a completely one-sided match, which is what happens in cw.

 

 

 

I agree with the people who say you should only be able to hold your own flag for a set time. Even better would be if it worked like in Unreal Tournament, where your flag is auto-returned as soon as you touch it, and you only have five minutes to carry the enemy flag to prevent Zammy "spies" from joining the Sara team to hold the Zammy flag and vice versa.

[Solidus_77]

False; just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. It ruins the fun for everyone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It only ruins the fun for the losers, that's only half.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm of the opinion that it's better to lose fairly than to win unfairly. I don't mind losing to a superior opponent because my skills weren't up to snuff. I do mind losing to a superior opponent because I weasled my way out of a fair contest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't just go up there and get a hold of your flag just like that, you have to KILL the opponent before he managest to get back to his side. This isn't an easy task and being able to pull it off is rewarded by letting you hold your flag. You are acting as if people somehow grabed their own flag without having to do anything which is not the case. In other words, it is fair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holding your own flag in cw is cheating because you've eliminated any chance for the opposing team to score.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

stopping the enemy from scoring is not cheating, it's startegy. Also you have no eliminated all chances for the opponent to score. If you were killed and the opponent took the flag, you kill that opponent and get it back. Simple is it not? It is possible to recover a flag when the enemy is holding it if the enemy does bad teamwork.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because one or two morons on their team screwed up, it doesn't mean the entire team has to suffer for that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a very selfish way of thinking "Hey it's not my fault, he was the one who was killed". You act as a team and when you don't protect the people going for the flag you are excercising bad teamwork, this will result in the whole team suffering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If given a chance, other team members could do far better, but by holding your own flag, you've taken away that chance, and any chance for a fair fight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you claim to have a chance against the other team what you need to do is round people up and go hunt down the person holding his flag. He is likely to be guarded by most of his team but if you claim that you are stonger you should be able to defeat him. If this is not the case and he kills you then that just proves that his team is stronger and therefore they deserve to win.

[armadillo48]

Dargon - when the enemy gets their flag its possible to get it back. It's equivalent to the 1st baseman holding the ball and the batter coming and beating the [cabbage] out of him for the ball.

[stevepole]

I think that flag hold is cheating because lets say about the average cmb on one team is about 80 and another team is about the same but has a guy thats lvl 116 or greater, and that player starts to hold the flag on a really close game and holds the flag for the last few mins. Thats what I don't like.

[Peronix]

It is legitimate. If the enemy gets hold of their own flag it's because you screwed up somehow. You made a mistake and pay the consequences

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not really. It's more because some newb on your team that you didn't nescicarily want on your team got to the flag first thinking he could score, the opposing team lets him outside, and then they get the jump on him and take their own flag. This has happened to me; I'm level 110, I know I could have scored, I was really close to getting the flag, but then it says 'TAKEN', and who runs out with the flag, but some level 53 n00b. Then shortly after the other team gets their flag.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And no, by definition it's not 'cheating'; but it certainly is unfair, and I think Jagex should change it. When they get their own flag it no longer becomes a standard CTF game, but a game of 'kill the enemy flag bearer' - which is certainly harder than taking it from a stationary flagpost. Every other CTF game I've ever seen, when the enemy touches their own flag, it goes back to their base. That is a disadvantage to the other team - because they just lost all the ground they just gained - but not somthing that prevents them from scoring, which is what letting them hold their own flag (especially when in the hands of someone with a monster defense level and bonus) is doing.

[Solidus_77]

Not really. It's more because some newb on your team that you didn't nescicarily want on your team got to the flag first thinking he could score, the opposing team lets him outside, and then they get the jump on him and take their own flag. This has happened to me; I'm level 110, I know I could have scored, I was really close to getting the flag, but then it says 'TAKEN', and who runs out with the flag, but some level 53 n00b. Then shortly after the other team gets their flag.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what you have there is a case of bad teamates and bad organization. Sure he is weak, but he wasn't very well guarded. In that case you should take out the ancient mage that tries to jump him. Or you could fight fire with fire and do the exact same thing on the other end. This isn't easy of course but not all teams are good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You will notice one big difference with other CTF games: They have means of killing the enemy very quikely, what good would holding one's own flag do? they would be taken out quikely unless they just hide. This doesn't happen as much in runescape since in runescape it takes a long time to kill an opponent. This can lead to a lot of games in CW which ends up being both teams are right next to the other flag respawn, and both grab it as fast as possible. That's not really all that great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, this still doesn't change the fact that if you are strong enough, then round some people and go get that flag back. If you can't do that then obviously the other team is either stronger or better organized. That makes it fair for them to win.

[dargonhuman]

The fact is, cheating is cheating, plain and simple. You can justify it however you want, but anything that gives you an unfair advantage (and holding your own flag while being surrounded by 3/4 of your team is unfair, no two ways about it) is cheating. The only thing being organized means is that there are more cheaters one one team than the other.

 

 

 

Again, I say, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, and it definitely doesn't make it right. Just because I can close the doors to the stores and annoy a bunch of people doesn't mean I should do that, because it's not right. Just because I can claim to be a disaster victim and get a bunch of money from the government doesn't mean I should. Just because you can pick up your own flag and cheat your way to victory doesn't mean you should.

 

 

 

You can bandy about terms like "strategy" and "organized" to try and justify yourself, but in the end you're still a cheater who used underhanded and dishonest means to win.

[S00NERfan]

It makes the game very boring and repetitive. I don't see why someone would want a boring mini game unless someone was just in it for the tickets.. I do think its unfair it is very easy to kill someone who has your flag most of the time its the lvl 32 with full red cwars. WHAT a challenge.

[Solidus_77]

The fact is, cheating is cheating, plain and simple. You can justify it however you want, but anything that gives you an unfair advantage (and holding your own flag while being surrounded by 3/4 of your team is unfair, no two ways about it) is cheating. The only thing being organized means is that there are more cheaters one one team than the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are wrong. It's perfectly legitimate, that's why it exists in the game. It's not a bug, if it was then this would be bug abuse and that is cheating. However flagholding is a perfectly legal strategy and it can only happen if you screw up. You screw up and get a dissadvantage, that's fair in every way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I say, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, and it definitely doesn't make it right. Just because I can close the doors to the stores and annoy a bunch of people doesn't mean I should do that, because it's not right. Just because I can claim to be a disaster victim and get a bunch of money from the government doesn't mean I should. Just because you can pick up your own flag and cheat your way to victory doesn't mean you should.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You shouldn't be annoyed at your own mistake. You keep insisting that flagholding is something illegal like macroing, it's not. You can win in caslte wars, but does that mean you

 

 

 

should?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can bandy about terms like "strategy" and "organized" to try and justify yourself, but in the end you're still a cheater who used underhanded and dishonest means to win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How is killing a player dishonest? You claim it's cheating when you sound like a sorry loser who can't stand flagholding to the point where he has convinced himself that it must be cheating.

[Nadril]

If it is within the game rules and mechanics (and isn't an exploit) than, yes, it is legitimate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However turtling (or bassicly having everyone on deffense, I deal with it quite a bit in WoW) generaly leads to a slower game and in most cases will not help either team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, it might be anoying but it's perfectly within the rules.

[Wachtwoord]

 

It is legitimate. If the enemy gets hold of their own flag it's because you screwed up somehow. You made a mistake and pay the consequences

true. :-k :-k :-k

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, mostly the opposite team gets the flag, because noobs/newbs screw up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally in high worlds it is a bit unfair, you just stand under you're own base with 3 ancients and you're almost unstoppable. (Note, I'm not very experienced with this, so don't flame me if I'm wrong.)

 

 

 

In low worlds it's a totally different story. There it takes skill to hold the flag and to kill the flag holder. Because always if I have our flag in such small worlds, there is one person defending me max! Mostly I'm totally on my own and it's deffenitly possible to kill me then.

[rft]

This is the #1 reason why i dont play CW anymore. The game can be ruined inside the first couple of mins by someone making a dash for the flag, not stopping to pick up any health packs and dying outside the castle. It's not fun for either team as you often just sit there and watch one of the teams rack up scores, which the other team leaves and waits 20 mins for the next game to start.

 

 

 

I agree that as it is well within the rules, obtaining your own flag is one of the prime objectives and it makes it much more likely that you will win. However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

[Zachcorp]

2 words:

 

 

 

Emergent Gameplay (article by tip.it)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think holding the flag is a legitimate way to win castle wars games, whether people like it or not.

 

 

 

It is not a bug, nor are the people abusing it

[armadillo48]

The fact is, cheating is cheating, plain and simple. You can justify it however you want, but anything that gives you an unfair advantage (and holding your own flag while being surrounded by 3/4 of your team is unfair, no two ways about it) is cheating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having a barrager on one team could be considered an unfair advantage,, but thats not cheating. If you can get the flag, then keep it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either team can do it, neither has more chance of getting it, it#s all dependant on your team.

[Danqazmlp]

 

However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Winning really is no fun at all :roll:, who could possibly want an easy 2 tickets?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want an easy two tickets :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my experience, if your team flag holds and has mass defending of the flag, it makes the game very boring, but its still a win, although sometimes if i'm the one holding the flag, i'l run out of the group and at least give the other team a chance of killing me, just to perk the game up a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My suggestion for a fix would be a compromise between how it is now and what people want.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the flag was dropped on you're teams side of the map (youre castles side of the river) it would be automatically safed just like as if it was in the castle now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BUT, if it was dropped in the enemy half of the map it would be up for flag holding, but as an experienced cw'er, i KNOW that holding the flag in the enemy half is VERY hard, and would only last about 5-10 minutes max, and would even the game out alot more.

[dargonhuman]

 

However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Winning really is no fun at all :roll:, who could possibly want an easy 2 tickets?

 

 

 

Winning isn't everything. If the round is fun, I don't care if I win or lose. On the other hand, if the game gets boring, like when people hold their own flags, I'll quit the game, even if I am on the winning side (I've quit more games where I was winning than losing because of this).

 

 

 

Also, you can cheat and still not break any rules. Cheat codes on other games may be programmed in to the game, and thus "allowed" by the programmers, but you're still cheating by using them. As far as I'm concerned, holding your own flag in cw is the same as activating God Mode or No Clip on Half Life. Yes, you can do it and it makes the game a lot easier, but it also makes the game far more boring.

[Solidus_77]

 

 

However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Winning really is no fun at all :roll:, who could possibly want an easy 2 tickets?

 

 

 

Winning isn't everything. If the round is fun, I don't care if I win or lose. On the other hand, if the game gets boring, like when people hold their own flags, I'll quit the game, even if I am on the winning side (I've quit more games where I was winning than losing because of this).

 

 

 

Also, you can cheat and still not break any rules. Cheat codes on other games may be programmed in to the game, and thus "allowed" by the programmers, but you're still cheating by using them. As far as I'm concerned, holding your own flag in cw is the same as activating God Mode or No Clip on Half Life. Yes, you can do it and it makes the game a lot easier, but it also makes the game far more boring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheat codes are considered cheating because they give you a completely cheap ability without having to do anything. To hold your own flag you must kill the opponent. Which part of this do you not understand? You are acting as if people can grab their own flag at any time. If it was possible to grab one's own flag at any time, it would be too easy but this is not the case. You need to kill the opponent which isn't always easy. Furthermore you must not be killed after having grabed your own flag. These are two conditions. Cheat codes are different because there are NO conditions, you just have to imput a sentance and then you get some unfair advantage. But flagholding isn't unfair because you had to work for it.

[dargonhuman]

 

 

 

However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Winning really is no fun at all :roll:, who could possibly want an easy 2 tickets?

 

 

 

Winning isn't everything. If the round is fun, I don't care if I win or lose. On the other hand, if the game gets boring, like when people hold their own flags, I'll quit the game, even if I am on the winning side (I've quit more games where I was winning than losing because of this).

 

 

 

Also, you can cheat and still not break any rules. Cheat codes on other games may be programmed in to the game, and thus "allowed" by the programmers, but you're still cheating by using them. As far as I'm concerned, holding your own flag in cw is the same as activating God Mode or No Clip on Half Life. Yes, you can do it and it makes the game a lot easier, but it also makes the game far more boring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheat codes are considered cheating because they give you a completely cheap ability without having to do anything. To hold your own flag you must kill the opponent. Which part of this do you not understand? You are acting as if people can grab their own flag at any time. If it was possible to grab one's own flag at any time, it would be too easy but this is not the case. You need to kill the opponent which isn't always easy. Furthermore you must not be killed after having grabed your own flag. These are two conditions. Cheat codes are different because there are NO conditions, you just have to imput a sentance and then you get some unfair advantage. But flagholding isn't unfair because you had to work for it.

 

 

 

It's not a matter of convenience or conditions, it's a matter of morality. It's immoral to use cheat codes, just as it's immoral to hold your own flag, no matter how easy or difficult either may be.

[zyrm]

i think flag holding is fine

 

 

 

i find it a challenge to try and retake the flag, the only problem with this is that teams are usually not coorinated enough to attempt to capture the flag at the same time, consequently the few people at anyone time fighting to get the lfga back are owned

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what i would like is an ingame teamspeak so you can communicate to everyone on your team at once, at least it will help attacks and defense to be better organized

[Ltje]

Technically it's not cheating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, I think it destroy's the fun pretty much, and changes the game from capture the flag to kill the flagholder. It's not a REAL Castle War anymore, it's a 'war' on the field trying to kill the flagholder. And if you like that, you could better go and play fight caves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, I think this is also an good example of emergent gameplay. But that doesn't say IMHO that therefore it must stay. (I didn't really agree with the times anyway : )

[Riku3220]

 

 

 

However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Winning really is no fun at all :roll:, who could possibly want an easy 2 tickets?

 

 

 

Winning isn't everything. If the round is fun, I don't care if I win or lose. On the other hand, if the game gets boring, like when people hold their own flags, I'll quit the game, even if I am on the winning side (I've quit more games where I was winning than losing because of this).

 

 

 

Also, you can cheat and still not break any rules. Cheat codes on other games may be programmed in to the game, and thus "allowed" by the programmers, but you're still cheating by using them. As far as I'm concerned, holding your own flag in cw is the same as activating God Mode or No Clip on Half Life. Yes, you can do it and it makes the game a lot easier, but it also makes the game far more boring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheat codes are considered cheating because they give you a completely cheap ability without having to do anything. To hold your own flag you must kill the opponent. Which part of this do you not understand? You are acting as if people can grab their own flag at any time. If it was possible to grab one's own flag at any time, it would be too easy but this is not the case. You need to kill the opponent which isn't always easy. Furthermore you must not be killed after having grabed your own flag. These are two conditions. Cheat codes are different because there are NO conditions, you just have to imput a sentance and then you get some unfair advantage. But flagholding isn't unfair because you had to work for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

its not hard for a 100 to kill some level 50 with ice barrage and a dragon scimmy. its even easier when your protected by another 2 barragers and 5 meleers... and you call this skill?

[Danqazmlp]

 

 

 

 

However, I think that it sucks that fun out of the game completely (for both teams) and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Winning really is no fun at all :roll:, who could possibly want an easy 2 tickets?

 

 

 

Winning isn't everything. If the round is fun, I don't care if I win or lose. On the other hand, if the game gets boring, like when people hold their own flags, I'll quit the game, even if I am on the winning side (I've quit more games where I was winning than losing because of this).

 

 

 

Also, you can cheat and still not break any rules. Cheat codes on other games may be programmed in to the game, and thus "allowed" by the programmers, but you're still cheating by using them. As far as I'm concerned, holding your own flag in cw is the same as activating God Mode or No Clip on Half Life. Yes, you can do it and it makes the game a lot easier, but it also makes the game far more boring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheat codes are considered cheating because they give you a completely cheap ability without having to do anything. To hold your own flag you must kill the opponent. Which part of this do you not understand? You are acting as if people can grab their own flag at any time. If it was possible to grab one's own flag at any time, it would be too easy but this is not the case. You need to kill the opponent which isn't always easy. Furthermore you must not be killed after having grabed your own flag. These are two conditions. Cheat codes are different because there are NO conditions, you just have to imput a sentance and then you get some unfair advantage. But flagholding isn't unfair because you had to work for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

its not hard for a 100 to kill some level 50 with ice barrage and a dragon scimmy. its even easier when your protected by another 2 barragers and 5 meleers... and you call this skill?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great point there. Ok if you are lvl 100+ backed up by many other players, its not any skill at all killing a helpless lower lvl, BUT, what if its the other way around, and you are a lower lvl and kill a much higher lvl for the flag..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Example: A lvl 100 kills a 120 for the flag by trapping them in a cade trap (Cw jargon, takes skill to do it correct thats all you need to know), and then if the lvl 100 hold the flag, but with many of his team defending him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It took him skill to get the flag but not to defend himself after. Is this still wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is also two types of flag holders:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Type1) Those who stand with and ancient or two and many of thier team defending them, when in trouble hops on the stepping stones and just hops around, so meleers cannot hit at all, and rangers/mages just get ganged on the sides, making the flag almost impossible to get. Sometimes these people also just continually go up,down,up,down,up,down a ladder, making it also very hard for the enemy to get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion that IS cheating, because it justruins the game, it turns from a challenge into mission impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Type2) Those who, like me, when holding the flag WILL give the other team a chance. Ok i may have people defending me, but if i think that the enemy has no way of getting to me, i'll run around a bit and attract some attention so the enemy can find me, and hunt me down easier. This is both more fun for me, in my eyes looks more skillful :), and is usually much more fun for the other team than running upto one spot and dieing before they get to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a fine line between what makes cheating and not cheating.