TheAncient

No, I think you might've misunderstood the expression. we don't know what percent soak he'll have based on his crush defense what I meant is that 4.5 defense points has approximately the same effect as 1% overall damage reduction, or a 3% soak value. we don't know what soak values rune will have yet.

The original post's length is why I posted a TL;DR conclusion, so if you want to get the main points from the post I suggest you look there Maul will be worse off than rapier and cls after this update. It's good for KO's but just about that... further, if your opponent has ~20% soak on melee it is actually worse in overall damage than rapier and cls. However, it is still good as a KO weapon because of its high accuracy and variance. I would still suggest using it, but mainly if you hybrid. veng kickback is a huge deal on it I think, so you need some way of getting rid of veng (i.e. other weaker and less accurate attacks).

This is pretty false... it's useful for bandos, arma, dks. in pvp DFS > defender for meleers and is the fourth best shield behind Div>CKS>Ely for rangers. Lol no. Prove it :grin:

OWNAGE@@@@@@@@@@

This is pretty false... it's useful for bandos, arma, dks. in pvp DFS > defender for meleers and is the fourth best shield behind Div>CKS>Ely for rangers.

Ely has been overpriced for a long time and now it is even moreso. I should say overrated in addition to overpriced. It is comparable to a CKS against ranged in pvp. I have yet to do the calculations, but it is probably worse than spectral against magic. It is perhaps best at melee defense. Divine is good. Dragon defender will at most be a ~5% increase in DPS. This is not as significant compared to the ~8-10% damage reduction we can expect from the defense boost. Source: http://forum.tip.it/topic/281700-preliminary-analysis-of-damage-soak-and-ddefender-safe-pvp/

I totally agree withthis

get a programmable mouse and set the extra button to the f keys putting your ring on thebottom of your invent makes quickswitch easier

it's not 20 percent unless the soak is like 50% and your opponents max is like 800 according to the graphs

It is already crashing. It will recover but stabilize at a lower price than before.

Hedgehog, good work. I hope it's +6 otherwise DFS would probably crash more. The attack values seem reasonable. They'll probably increase DPS against 50% accuracy by like... 5%ish

aw they didn't respond to my constitution pot question :( probably too revealing

In my eyes all the new system really does is introduce a very slight overall damage reduction while lowering max hits, making it harder to KO. The change to damage is really not too much unless we can easily get a soak value of ~50%. For pures, it'll be a little bit harder to KO a tank. This difference probably is not as big as the natural difference between pures and normally leveled characters.

Div> Spec/Arc/CKS combo > Ely for PvP

the graphs show overall damage reduction averaged over all hits not the damage reduction on the max hit only

We're waiting. Don't fail to deliver. Str gear used: 110 strength No prayers used No pots used Max hit should be ~307 Against 150 mage defense Expected Mean Hit: 307 Experimental Mean Hit: 287 SD: 87.28 N = 26 Chi square analysis produced X2 value of 2.2, corresponding to a p value of between 0.05 and 0.10 (X2 = 2.7 for p=0.10, X2 = 3.8 for p=0.05) Significant difference? By traditional statistics, yes, as 0.05=p is the usual critical value. Hard to say though for sure, p=0.10 is not an unreasonable critical value. more testing may be needed Do you want me to test mage pray as well? I'm like 99% sure mage pray reduces damage Thanks to Rocked for data collection

I would assume additively; it is easier to code. hard to know for certain.

Seeing as how little damage soaks actually affect combat, I would say pures are not obsolete. Your max will be lowered

lol I will do research on this when I have time. keep your breath held.

Some math Let c = soak coefficient (e.g. 0.14 for dungeoneering shields) Let c' = overall damage soaked (e.g. ~3.7% for dungeoneering shields against a weapon with a max of 550) Let m = max hit Let h = value of any particular hit The expression for the percent damage reduction is then c' = (c/m) sum((h-200)/h),h,200,m). This sum can be approximated as an integral as follows: c' ~ (c/m) integral((h-200)/h,h,200,m) which should evaluate to c' ~ c[1-(200/m)*ln(m)+859.66/m]. Using this expression one can evaluate the overall damage reduction c' given your soak coefficient c and the max hit of the weapon you are defending from, m. Plotting this for various c: Note that "overall damage reduction" means the damage reduction averaged over all hits, not the reduction on the max hit only. What does this mean for Elysian and Divine Spirit Shields? Against a max hit of 600, a 50% soak rating reduces overall damage by approximately 15%. Thus, a 50% soak rating is comparable to an Ely (17.5% overall damage reduction). Divine's 30% Damage reduction is still much more potent than even a soak rating of 50%. For damage soak to be better than divine, it would have to be extremely high (50%+). What does this mean for Overall Damage and Chaotic Weaponry? [hide=Assumptions] Assuming you have 99 Strength, Extreme Strength Potion, Turmoil Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Dragon Defender+, Rapier = 150 Attack, 136 Strength Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Dragon Defender+, Longsword = 180 Attack, 155 Strength Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Maul = 150 Attack, 136 Strength = 196 Attack, 183 Strength *Barrows has been proven to be better than Bandos in standard Safe PvP in a previous post of mine. +Dragon Defender stats are assumed to be ~27 Attack bonus, 7 Strength bonus [/hide] [hide=DPS Without Soak] Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 300 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits: Rapier -- Max: 532 -- Acc: 28.99% -- DPS: 32.12 Longsword -- Max: 585 -- Acc: 33.23% -- DPS: 32.40 Maul -- Max: 662 -- Acc: 35.45% -- DPS: 32.60 Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits: Rapier -- Max: 532 -- Acc: 25.41% -- DPS: 28.16 Longsword -- Max: 585 -- Acc: 29.13% -- DPS: 28.4 Maul -- Max: 662 -- Acc: 31.08% -- DPS: 28.58 Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 400 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits: Rapier -- Max: 532 -- Acc: 22.64% -- DPS: 25.09 Longsword -- Max: 585 -- Acc: 25.95% -- DPS: 25.30 Maul -- Max: 662 -- Acc: 31.08% -- DPS: 25.46 [/hide] For overall DPS, Maul>LS>rapier but they are all approximately the same. Maul benefits from having high variance on its attacks and high accuracy, making it a good KO weapon; however, vengeance recoil is a significant drawback. Rapier is more reliable but has slighly lower DPS. Longsword is the intermediate between the two. [hide=DPS With Soak] Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points,10% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits: Rapier -- Max: 498.8 -- Acc: 25.41% -- DPS: 27.44 Longsword -- Max: 546.5 -- Acc: 29.13% -- DPS: 27.57 Maul -- Max: 615.8 -- Acc: 31.08% -- DPS: 27.62 Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, 20% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits: Rapier -- Max: 465.6 -- Acc: 25.41% -- DPS: 26.72 Longsword -- Max: 508 -- Acc: 29.13% -- DPS: 26.75 Maul -- Max: 569.6 -- Acc: 31.08% -- DPS: 26.65 Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, 30% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits: Rapier -- Max: 432.4 -- Acc: 25.41% -- DPS: 25.99 Longsword -- Max: 469.5 -- Acc: 29.13% -- DPS: 25.92 Maul -- Max: 523.4 -- Acc: 31.08% -- DPS: 25.69 [/hide] Interesting thing to note: Rapier>Longsword>Maul once soak goes above ~20% and 350 defense. Below ~20%, Maul>Longsword>Rapier. Also, soak does make a significant impact on max hit. [hide=Defense Points Versus Soak] Calculations based on the values taken above. On a very rough approximation, 300->350 Defense points gives approximately 12% Overall damage reduction 350->400 Defense points gives approximately 11% Overall damage reduction 10%->20% Soak rating gives approximately 3.3% Overall damage reduction 20%->30% Soak rating gives approximately 3.2% Overall damage reduction [/hide] 50 Defense points is worth roughly 11% Overall damage reduction. 10% Soak rating is worth roughly 3.2% Overall damage reduction. So to reduce overall damage by 1%: -- Increase defense points by 4.55, OR -- Increase soak rating by 3%. On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points. Limitations to this Analysis -- Applies mainly when the assumptions hold true. Actual values may vary depending on the situation. -- Applies mainly in a Safe PvP setting ------------------------------ Conclusions -- Dragon defender improves rapier relative to CLS and CLS relative to maul, but does not change the original rank order (Maul > CLS > Rapier) -- On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points. -- 1% Overall Damage Reduction : 4.5 Defense Points : 3% Soak rating -- Soak rating makes a significant impact on max hit. -- Above ~20% Soak rating, Rapier > CLS > Maul -- Below ~20% Soak rating, Maul > CLS > Rapier -- An elysian SS's soak is worth approximately 50% soak rating.

jagex is hesitant to release new bosses b/c they think most of the demand for bosses should be satisfied by DG

it's often been quoted as 70% of your magic level and 30% of your defense level anyway OT: i encourage you to watch youtube videos of KS and look at max hits against mage armor and melee armor and see if you notice any difference on BTS: kudos to jagex for one step (among many future ones apparently!) to balancing combat

I would go with slayer til you get enough charms for 88 summ and then go TD's or go get 85 DG and then frosts

divines wont crash much, they'll still be very powerful. but who knows, we can only speculate at this point wrt item pricings. we don't know if barrows or arma/bandos will have more reduction

CLS's main selling point in pvp is its accuracy over rapier. seeing as how CLS and rapier's max hits aren't THAT far apart, and that defender also benefits CLS, I'm pretty sure CLS+def will be comparable to maul, and comparable to (if not better than) Rapier+def. in other words, for pvp now, the rank order is maul>cls?=rapier; with new defender, it will likely be cls?=?rapier>maul ?'s denotes unsure i'm pretty sure claws will still be inferior to KS. despite all of KS's drawbacks its main power - the 100% accuracy - remains untouched. I am looking forward to this too