A Question of Morality

[Soma2035]

This is a morale conflict I've had over the recent months, both with myself and my friends. In fact, this is the conflict that eventually drove me completely away from the Dagannoth King Hunting community, and now, it appears to be the issue that will stop me from being part of the GWD community.

 

 

 

Please do not respond unless you have the patience to read through and fully comprehend the issue.

 

 

 

This tradition started with Dagannoth King Hunting, when teams of 4-5 would be able to effectively kill the kings for up to 3 hours. Whether you split the drops is no question: everyone who helped gets a share. Who deserves the split then became the issue.

 

 

 

Immediately, the top hunters, famous on these forums, established their own method, which was only people in the room at the time of the kill gets a share. This does seem fair at first... until you've been on both sides of it once. While hunting Dagannoth Kings, the mages tend to last longer because of no need to use prayer. The wizards teleport out 5-20 kills after the rangers.

 

 

 

I've been on both sides of this before. One time, we had four dry trips, and the last trip, all the rangers, including me, teleported. Then the mage got 3 dragon axes in a row. And of course, he refused to split because of this policy, and we were forced to honor it. Secondly, I was left once because of the death of my team mates. I managed to get in 5-6 kills after retrieving items and pulled a dragon axe and berserker ring. While they all honored our agreement, I refused to myself, so I split it with them.

 

 

 

This disagreement has led to many things. First, I've almost entirely retired from the Dagannoth Hunting Community on TIF because of this. I went DK with a good friend of mine, Trojann2. However, we could never agree over this issue and eventually we each went our own way.

 

 

 

Now that the GWD has come out, I've been there multiple times. I find myself on the extra earnings side again, and I still find I can't accept it.

 

 

 

My question to you is this. In a hypothetical situation, five warriors spend days down there. Not until the 10th raid against Graardor do they find anything worthwhile. They retrieve a Bandos Hilt, easily worth 50M. One warrior however was pummeled first, and was forced to teleport one kill before.

 

 

 

Fighting these bosses is truly random. Everyone usually ends up being "the first one out" some time or another. This is usually because one person tries to draw Graardor's attention to himself to protect his allies. This happens a lot, and some times one person does it too much and leaves 1-3 kills earlier. Well, is it really fair for the unfortunate to have purely lost the 1m cash in potions he invested, while the others each profit 11.5m?

 

 

 

Because that's how this current sharing system is. Last night I personally got a god shard drop after one of our team teleported. I insisted on splitting with her (we only had 3 people) and eventually I convinced my teammate to give her at least half a share. But still, I feel this entire principle is wrong.

 

 

 

What do you think? Is the "people in the room" method a better, fairer one as most TIF DK hunters and GWD raiders strongly assert? Or should splits purely depend on whether you we're helping on that trip?

 

 

 

On a final note, I'm sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong forum. I'm not particularly looking for a debate, only to see if anyone thinks the same way I do, or if people have other reasons for preferring their method. If this thread does belong somewhere else, could you please move it? Thank you.

 

 

 

EDIT: Thank you to whichever mod cleared up the whole issue with multiple posts everywhere. I really appreciate it. Teaches me never to post when I have two TIF tabs open on Firefox... Lol. Lag galore + teleporting and misposts :(.

[supanova]

in my opinion, if you helped out, but had to teleport out, then you still qualify to recieve a split of the drops.

 

 

 

by the sound of it, the "people in the room" method is just ridiculous. i think it's a good way to make people dislike you.

[Latinoking]

If you help then you should get a share of the loot. I mean what's the point going if you're not going to get anything. Sucks for those who have to obey the "People in the room get the loot" rule. Sounds retarted IMO. This is why I don't fight bosses unless it's my close friends. Clans & Guilds ftl.

[Shadow MC]

I believe whoever made a contribution to getting the drop, even if they had to tele out deserves their share of the loot. Just because they weren't able to help kill the one that dropped the most valuable loot, they still helped to kill the other times. In some situations if it were not for that person who was taking the hits for the rest of the team they may not have even been able to stay there long enough to get that last lucky drop.

[casthewiz]

Me and my friends always sell the drop when we go fighting the KQ, and split it 5 ways (one fifth goes to one of our friends who supplys us with free food and potions in return for a fifth of the shares). It doesn't matter for us whether we fought it the same, just as long as they were there and fighting.

[time2quit]

This is why you need a good team full of people you know and trust, say theres 5 of you, if all 5 of you are there at the start of the trip, 5 way split...

 

 

 

Its just selfish people who want to try and keep as much pixel money rather than being even a lil bit kind...

[imaerehw14]

The only time i go DKing or GWDing is with very good friends of mine. We always split drops on account of who went on the trip, not who was in the room at the time. Splitting on who was in the room at the time is just selfish. If someone made the effort to buy 100kish in potions and risk their armor just to try and get that bandos hilt/8 dragon axes on the trip, then they rightly deserve it.

 

 

 

I am not one who 'needs' GP all the time, so maybe im looking at it from another angle, but from your post it seems that you are going with some pretty experienced guys down to DKs so i assume they are pretty well off as well. I dont see the point of not splitting drops unless you are greedy, better known as a 'pixel hugger'.

 

 

 

Oh, and this share to whoever is in the room rule can definatly be abused. Get 3 axes during the dk trip, dont tell your hybrids, let the hybrids tele out, and boom! You just got 3 axes in a row! how convient!

 

 

 

Sharing is caring.

[Saru Inc]

It depends. If you were a pain, like IDK.. Doing what I did on my first trip as a hybrid like attacking Supreme instead of Prime. :uhh: :thumbsup: Then you were more of a pain then a help. So if you had to tele you shouldn't get anything. But if you had to tele early 'cause you were taking the hits for other people while they healed or something you should DEFINITELY get a share. But, if you were barely there, I don't know... get a lesser share, not a full one. Because without you, the rest of the team might had to tele before they got the kill that dropped the hilt.

[Soma2035]

It seems among most players, it's pretty unanimous that you deserve a portion of it. Unless you were completely unhelpful and harming more than helping.

 

 

 

This is what bothers me... why is it that so many Dag King hunters and GWDers insist that their method is better?

 

 

 

In part I can understand applying this to DK, because mages do spend more on supplies, so this is an incentive to mage. But with the methods we use at GWD, we all use the same set up. The only reason someone leaves early is because:

 

 

 

a) Lag and died... or nearly died and teleported.

 

B) Sponged the attacks too often, and took the most damage, hence had to leave early.

 

c) Left of his own accord because he felt something else took priority.

 

 

 

In case c), yes the person should be excluded from the split. He chose to leave early and shortened the trip because of it. But in both of the other cases, I feel he deserves a share. And all the other people I go with tend to disagree...

 

 

 

Oh yes, Saru, you're a member of GOF. I've been on trips with GOF members before, and they all followed this policy as well. I'm wondering, is that your clan policy in general?

 

 

 

For those who don't know, GOF is a Dagannoth Hunting clan.

[berbatovsky]

If you tank for your team to the extent that you run out of food way before the rest and have to tele and then the next kill the team makes is a hilt drop, you more than deserve an equal share. By taking all that damage YOU brought about the chance of the next kill, without you tanking who knows what would have happened, maybe te rest of the team would have taken massive damage by not agreeing who was tanking, and all would have to tele out. Thats why its best to team with 'friends' but of course this isn't always possible.

[Soma2035]

If you tank for your team to the extent that you run out of food way before the rest and have to tele and then the next kill the team makes is a hilt drop, you more than deserve an equal share. By taking all that damage YOU brought about the chance of the next kill, without you tanking who knows what would have happened, maybe te rest of the team would have taken massive damage by not agreeing who was tanking, and all would have to tele out. Thats why its best to team with 'friends' but of course this isn't always possible.

 

 

 

The issue is that these ARE friends of mine. Good friends ever since I first started Dag King hunting. And again, some of them are/were very prominent on these forums.

 

 

 

They are all very nice people, and respected on their forums. And I also respect their decision, but at the same time I disagree with it.

 

 

 

Lee once tried to convince me of this method as well as Trojann, both very well known on these forums to my knowledge. They're very nice people, and were very good friends, but somehow they insisted that their method was the only fair method of ensuring that people who worked for the kills got their fair share. Fastforce and Timeouts already have a GWD blog and I'm going with them quite often. And now it's them that I'm having the disputes with...

 

 

 

So far we've kept it pretty clean, and have tried hard to compromise. But this is what eventually broke me away from Trojann and most of my other DK-ing friends, and now it's threatening to break me away from the GWD community as well.

[Sjakie_1_1_3]

I think it really depends on the situation. If I look at the examples you give about the GWD I'd say that the ones who teled out first do deserve their share of the drop. They helped in the killing, and they (most likely) did the team a favour by taking the extra blows. I would always share in such a situation. Though I haven't fought the gwd bosses with a team yet, so I can't speak from my own experience about it.

 

 

 

Now about the DK's. Again it really depends on the type of trip. Let's say you do a 3 man trip, 2 hybrids and a mage. The mage will outlast the hybrids. In this case I think it's fair for the mage NOT to share any drops he gets after the hybrids tele. A mages inventory costs a lot more than that of a hybrid and your taking the extra risk of staying solo (no one to pick up your stuff might you die). I think in those cases the mage just deserves to keep the drops he gets.

 

 

 

For a duo trip thats different for me (duo mage trips I'm talking about now, mage/melee duos aren't really possible anymore and I got no experience with them). In a duo trip I would share any drops even after my partner teled. In duo trips we always share the food drops anyway. And if one needs any pots the other drops them for him. I and the friends I duo with always tend to keep in the lair as long as possible together. Then, might one get to do a few solo kills after all it's only fair to share any more drops in my opinion.

[MidnightSoul]

I only do it with a team of reliable friends. We only have one rule. Split the drop equally, no matter what.

[ugafan_2009]

I think if you help on a trip, and you're my friend, you deserve a drop. If a couple of newbs come into our KQ and kill it with us, they aren't getting a share.

[tintin113]

This does seem to be a very difficult scenario. In any case, everyone there should get a share, but you have addressed the difficult issue of who gets it. Someone who takes all the hits, is a very valuable asset to the team, and without them there, they would possibly not last anywhere near as long as otherwise.

 

 

 

However, there is also the problem that when they have gone, if the others get a drop, there are two ways of thinking:

 

1.) They weren't there, and therefore they didn't help us kill the monster that gave the drop, therefore, we get the share, because we killed it.

 

2.) Every kill gives us an extra chance to get the drop, they are a valuable asset to our team to our team, and every kill he has helped us with, has helped us towards this drop. He had to leave early, and we got the drop, yet he can still get a share, because he helped us kill all the others, that all, potentially, could have dropped this.

 

 

 

I personally agree with the second mindset, but then there can always be scenarios where this wouldn't fit.

 

 

 

It is really a test of how maturely someone can act in the consequences. The consequences for almost every rare team drop ever have been different, simply because of the team aspect of it.

 

 

 

What should really happen is an agreement, prior to the trip, that all team members, present or not, as long as everyone knew they did their pest while present, should get their share of the drop. This should oly be averted when everyone knows that the other player is investing nothing in the trip, and leaving eery few kills, or any other extreme circumstances.

 

 

 

But I say again, the team aspect makes it impossible ever to write a guide book or something on this, that isn't pages and pages long, covering every scenario possible. It is simply the maturity of the team, that decides who gets a share of the drop.

[Soma2035]

Everyone who's posted seems to share my view of this situation.

 

 

 

But EVERY one of my friends who DK or go GWD professionally with only 1 notable exception follow the opposite method.

 

 

 

My response last time this subject was broached, when the issue was DKing, my only solution was to leave the team.

 

 

 

I'm wondering... should that be my response this time as well?

[ugafan_2009]

Everyone who's posted seems to share my view of this situation.

 

 

 

But EVERY one of my friends who DK or go GWD professionally with only 1 notable exception follow the opposite method.

 

 

 

My response last time this subject was broached, when the issue was DKing, my only solution was to leave the team.

 

 

 

I'm wondering... should that be my response this time as well?

I usually follow the other method because my team does. It is disheartening when your team gets a d axe the kill after you tele though. :x

[Soma2035]

Everyone who's posted seems to share my view of this situation.

 

 

 

But EVERY one of my friends who DK or go GWD professionally with only 1 notable exception follow the opposite method.

 

 

 

My response last time this subject was broached, when the issue was DKing, my only solution was to leave the team.

 

 

 

I'm wondering... should that be my response this time as well?

I usually follow the other method because my team does. It is disheartening when your team gets a d axe the kill after you tele though. :x

 

 

 

See, what REALLY disheartens me is when I get the D axe after most of my team teleports. I don't get too upset about losing my share due to this rule. But I hate it when 3/5 people teleport, we get something valuable, and my partner refuses to split with the other 3.

 

 

 

THAT is what disheartens me mostly. The whole principle bothers me. Yesterday it took me 20 minutes to convince my parter to share, and the only reason I could was that the drop was mine to start...

[123Yourgone]

Only people i will team with are good friends, and i share with anyone involved.

 

Me you and uga should put a team together some time.

[stan18]

I've always followed the whoever-in-the-room policy. But I've seen both sides

 

 

 

Last summer i went with three other people to DK's - nothing good, until a friend had to tele because he almost died. Afterwards, we got enough drops for 5m split between three, yes, we started with four, split. The other member that lost out was mad, and i felt really, really bad, but he also followed the room-in-policy, and since i got none of those drops, i could not offer him any shares, nor did he get any shares at all.

 

 

 

 

 

But I've been on the other end of the stick. A few days ago i went with Time and Fast to the Armadyl boss, and teleported on the second to last kill when he was almost redbarred. The final kill right afterwards was armadyl legs, but i was not in the room, and i did not get a share. But i didn't mind, since we all (tacitly) follow the policy

 

 

 

Ive always honored the room policy. Theres nothing I can really do unless the other teammates decide to offer a share, but thats not in my control. It simply can't be helped if someone has to leave early, but a policy is a policy. the only way around this is to get the split policy clear between all members before the actual drops take place

[the_tallest1]

Very interesting topic, a nice change for this board.

 

 

 

Not having any personal experience DKing, I can only speak based on common courtesy and common sense. I'll omit talking about random people showing up and purposely harmful team members.

 

 

 

I don't really get the mentality here. However if what you're saying is as prevalent amongst the DKers you mentioned, I can only call it greed in perhaps 90% of the scenarios.

 

 

 

Particularly of interest to me is the scenario where a lone mage is left behind and keeps 100% of all drops after the group leaves. I might be off here but I was under the impression a single person couldn't get there by themselves. If that's true, they owe it to the people who got them there. If these people you refer to would still argue against that then it's just greed.

[llcoolguy972]

I'm kind of on the fence. Like at DKs, if the hybrids tele and then 2 kills later the mage gets a d axe, they should share, but if it's like 15 kills later, the mage should keep it. There should be a certain number of kills after you teleport that you can still get a share in the drops. Hope that makes sense, I'm not that articulate, thb. :P

[Sjakie_1_1_3]

Particularly of interest to me is the scenario where a lone mage is left behind and keeps 100% of all drops after the group leaves. I might be off here but I was under the impression a single person couldn't get there by themselves. If that's true, they owe it to the people who got them there. If these people you refer to would still argue against that then it's just greed.

I can't really agree with you on this point.

 

Yes, you can't get to the dks when alone. But all you really need to get there is someone to help you open the 2-mans doors. As a mage you don't need any hybrids to be able to do a trip. However, as a hybrid you DO need the mage. There is no way to hybrid without a good mage. The mages are respondible for the hybrids. If the mage makes one mistake the hybrids can die, and the quality of the mage plays a very important part in how long the hybrids can stay.

 

Hybrids also use a much cheaper inventory than the mage does (about 2 times cheaper) and they get a lot more kills than the mage does. But, the only way they can do that is by having a good mage.

 

What I want to make clear is that it isn't the mage who owes the hybrids, but the hybrids who owe the mage.

 

Therefor I also think it's only fair for the mage to keep any drops he gets after the hybrids tele.

 

 

 

Note: This is my opinion only for 3-4 man DK trips (with 1 mage and 2 or 3 hybrids and only for the situation of the mage). For other types of trips my opinion is different, but I already posted that on an earlier post.

[Impaler99]

If you teleport out to restock, while the mage kills them solo, with no help whatsoever on the ones that he gets drop's from, why should you or any of the team that teleported to restock get a share of those drops?

 

 

 

That's almost to say that being part of the team I could kill 10, decide I was bored, teleport away for a bit and say I was restocking, do something IRL real quick, come back and try and lay claim to drops that they got with no help of me.

 

 

 

Each kill is a random drop. The more you kill has no effect on the % of what drop you can get, thus if you aren't there to help with any of the kill, there is no way you should get any share of the drop.

 

 

 

If you help kill it but have to teleport away mid fight, THAT monster, yes, you should get a share of that drop. NOT if you didn't do any help at all on the monster.

 

 

 

I hardly find that a morality issue, in fact...it isn't one.

[kelem_ryu]

Hm.. maybe it shouldn't bother you too much. It seems like you got your share anyway and you just felt that this kind of split isn't fair to some people (wich may or may not be true. i can't tell, because i've never been there.)

 

 

 

Remember that nobody is really missing out. It's just a game. If somebody misses a drop, he'll get over it. If you really want to, you could propose some sort of gentlemens agreement, where people how left early and really deserve a cut, get something. It doesn't even have to be an equal split, just a little something to appreciate their help. Yet as i said. It's a game. As long as YOU don't feel like you are missing out, it's okay.