THIS IS NOT ANOTHER WHINING THREAD, AND FLAME WITHOUT READING THE WHOLE POST WILL BE REPORTED AND REMOVED

 

 

 

 

 

Now, we've all heard it. We've probably all have opinions. But I want to give the scientific reasons why melee is overpowered.

 

 

 

The first variable is the weapon

 

 

 

Melee has a wide variety of weapons, slow and fast, and varying special attacks. The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities. Max hit depends on strength level and weapons. Has a huge one time cost, but small upkeep(barrows only)

 

 

 

Range has a lesser amount of usable weapons. Only bows and crossbows are viable in normal use. Bows are faster while crossbows are slower, but more damaging. The only exemption is Morrigan's Javalins. Range has only one good special attack(Dark Bow), although enchanted bolts have non relyable special effects. Max hit depends on range level and bolts. The damage depends on ammo type and range level, while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor. A very low armor and weapon cost, but must keep buying arrows.

 

 

 

Magic has only staves, and one attack speed. Although the time the spell actually hits depends on it's animation. There is no special attacks in magic, only the effects of ancient spells. The max hit depends on the spell. Very expensive spells, moderate armor/weapon cost. Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

 

 

As we can see, the weapon bonus is very varying. Melee is almost completely dependant on the weapon, range in the middle, and magic on armor. In addition, magic can, besides missing, may fail.

 

 

 

Armor

 

 

 

Melee armor is for defense against range and melee. Some parts provide a small offensive bonus. They are the most fleible in choosing armor types.

 

 

 

Range armor is dependant on magic defense. They can tank with melee armor, but must have a piece of dragonhide or leather in order to hit accuratly.

 

 

 

Mage armor is essential, or they will fail too many spells. Their armor is offensive only, and has almost no defensive value.

 

 

 

In the case of armor, we see that melee is again, at an advantage. They can use whatever armor they want without severely damaging their offensive abilities. Range can tank, but still needs some range armor. Mages are fairly restricted to magic armor. They need it for offensive powers, but have no defense.

 

 

 

 

 

It is pretty obvious that melee is overpowered. The reason is simple. Stats are gained in a different way. But this is not completely bad. It allows for hybriding. A whipper in robes can cast spells and melee very effectively. This further proves that Jagex designed magic to be a support class. Even though magic users can root, they are unable to constantly freeze, and will get torn apart by a barrage of melee or range strikes.

 

 

 

So the question is; what can we do about it.

you may want to change some of your word choice, you sound horribly biased in some parts such as "Range has only one good special attack(Dark Bow), although enchanted bolts have non relyable special effects."

 

 

 

while the effects are not a guarentee, single bolts do have a lot of hitting power

 

 

 

Im not saying I disagree with the statement that melee is overpowered, but to call this scientific requires an opening post that is objective

IS this a debate?

 

There is another variable you haven't accounted for - Melee requires 2 skills to be trained. 99 strength and 1 attack won't do anything for you, likewise, 99 attack and 1 strength will do very little for you.

 

 

 

A range tank or mage tank maxes out well before CB lvl 126 - and that's why Melee isn't overpowered.

It's true melee has alot choices and alot advantage. But look at it this way:

 

 

 

If you get close combat with Commander zilyana, your potions will go out incredible fast.

 

 

 

If you tank other strong monsters, same thing happens...

 

 

 

Magic? They can freeze players in PVP...stops the melee to reach them.

 

 

 

Magic and Range has farcast, where melee don't so it's logical to me that it should be like that.

 

 

 

I don't think Melee is overpowered no.

Melee ...The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities.

 

 

 

Range ...while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor.

 

 

 

Magic ...Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

And where would these numbers come from?

Melee ...The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities.

 

 

 

Range ...while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor.

 

 

 

Magic ...Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

And where would these numbers come from?

 

 

 

The numbers come from how the attacker get's their offensive powers.

thing is,rangers and magers can attack from a distance :geek:

Is melee overpowered? No.

 

Is melee faulty on the way its based compared to the triangle? Yes.

 

 

 

Assessment of Accuracy's:

 

 

 

Range Accuracy = Range level + Range Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Range Def Bonus)

 

Magic Accuracy = Magic level + Magic Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Magic level+Magic Def Bonus)

 

Melee Accuracy = Attack level + Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense leve+Defensive Bonus)

 

 

 

As you can see, Melee is the only combat type out of the three that depends only on the Skill level and Weapon Bonuses for accuracy. This allows melee players to wear any armor type while meleeing without any loss of accuracy, which makes the way its compared to the others faulty.

 

 

 

If melee was based partly on the attack level and partly on offensive stats which would be given to melee armor, that alone would solve 90% of the problems with the combat triangle being off scale. Players could still hybrid, but would have reduced accuracy penalties for it. A meleer switching from rune armor to dragon hide would suffer the same accuracy loss as a ranger switching from dragon hide to mystic.

 

 

 

And maybe Magic wasn't the "secondary". Maybe Magic is the primary, and Range/melee are the secondaries to it. That's how I use Magic, and, in all modesty, I've fought and won many various fights.

 

Constant freezing is annoying, but use obstacles when a meleer becomes un-frozen. Simpyl round around it, then freeze again. No damage done to you if you get the timing right.

 

I also feel the need to disagree when you say that range and magic have no special attacks. EACH and EVERY enchanted bolt has a special effect which are very good when used in the correct situation. They are very accurate and activate fairly often in each fight. The Magic Short is also a good special weapon, dealing fast and devestating damage.

 

Magic itself is special attacks. Poison, lowering skills, Healing, and binding are all great effects, and that doesn't include vengeance, one of the greatest KO tools.

 

 

 

"In addition, magic can, besides missing, may fail."

 

 

 

Did you know that if an Ice Barrage hits 0, it still freezes your enemy?

 

 

 

All that being said, nothing needs to be done about it. Range armor could have negative melee options, but that isn't a big deal. If you use the triangle smartly, no class needs any power-up.

Is melee overpowered? No.

 

Is melee faulty on the way its based compared to the triangle? Yes.

 

 

 

Assessment of Accuracy's:

 

 

 

Range Accuracy = Range level + Range Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Range Def Bonus)

 

Magic Accuracy = Magic level + Magic Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Magic level+Magic Def Bonus)

 

Melee Accuracy = Attack level + Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense leve+Defensive Bonus)

 

 

 

As you can see, Melee is the only combat type out of the three that depends only on the Skill level and Weapon Bonuses for accuracy. This allows melee players to wear any armor type while meleeing without any loss of accuracy, which makes the way its compared to the others faulty.

 

 

 

If I were to have my way, I would make it so melee is based only partly on the attack level and partly on offensive stats given to melee armor. That alone would solve 90% of the problems with the combat triangle being off scale.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the best explination.

 

 

 

But although it would be good to have mellee dependant on the armour aswell, it would ruin lots of runescape as we know it due to the fact alot of rs depends on melee'rs using magic defence armour.

 

 

 

Were also forgetting the different attack styles mellee has, which coount as a whole new att type.

Melee ...The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities.

 

 

 

Range ...while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor.

 

 

 

Magic ...Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

And where would these numbers come from?

 

 

 

The numbers come from how the attacker get's their offensive powers.

 

 

 

They tell only half the story. Yes, a large amount (not quite half) of range's attack bonuses come from its armor, but that does not represent half of their offensive power. Not even close.

 

 

 

 

In the case of armor, we see that melee is again, at an advantage. They can use whatever armor they want without severely damaging their offensive abilities. Range can tank, but still needs some range armor. Mages are fairly restricted to magic armor. They need it for offensive powers, but have no defense.

 

 

 

 

So what? Rangers have higher defence in melee, range, and mage than melee'ers. And Ahrim's gives significant melee defence and impressive mage defence. You seem to be ignoring mage defence.

 

 

 

And all this flexibility mumbo-jumbo means nothing unless melee is indeed capable of doing more damage than mage or range. This is in fact true, but you didn't mention that point anywhere in your post.

 

 

 

Here's the way I see it: In PvE situations, range is slightly underpowered in some cases and mage is quite underpowered. In PvP, melee is by no means superior to range or mage.

Melee isn't overpowered lol.

Reported and Removed? You have the power to do that?

Very indepth.

 

 

 

Anyways, if you're stupid enough to use just one form of attack (Unless you have an AGS or D Claws) you're an idiot. From what I've noticed people tend to switch to mage or range from melee for a special (dark bow)or spell (ice spells, tb, veng).

I agree, long explanation kind of below. BTW, hybrid arguments are [developmentally delayed]ed. Just because magic works well in combination with range and melee doesn't mean it is good.

 

 

 

[hide=]Range armor is overpowered and mage armor is underpowered.

 

 

 

Range armor is just to damn good at doing what it is supposed to. Block spells. The problem like some people said is that meleer's have no reason to stay in their 'metal' armor when fighting a mage. Except for bandos (and maybe one or two other things) their armor gives absolutely nothing that helps them deal damage or hit. That messes up the triangle.

 

 

 

And then mage armor just blows. I mean, you can't really even call what they have armor. Sure they can bind and everything but praying, d-hide, and other things can really screw that over and if all else fails the person can just run. Running you say might be a prob for other classes as well but atleast they can KO effectively (using a single combat type, no casting blitz and then Dbow Spec).

 

 

 

The argument that meleers have to train two skills is pretty dumb. Melee can train very cheaply and very quickly. To train quickly with mage or range you are going to suffer a hit to your check book where as with melee you get good exp without losing gobs of money.

 

 

 

But one thing I'd like to point out which was said here

 

 

 

 

If you get close combat with Commander zilyana, your potions will go out incredible fast.

 

 

 

If you tank other strong monsters, same thing happens...

 

 

 

 

Melee probably isn't the strongest class in PvM. I don't know what is but I think melee is balanced in that regard.[/hide]

I contend that for a warrior to use armour outside of melee is hybriding, because you are using something reqireing combat skills outside of your class. Using another classes armour counts as hybriding just as much as using another classes weapon. The OP has even pointed out that most mage offensive capability is in their armour. Using mage/range armour in melee combat means that you are hybriding and thus disqualified from standard melee overpowered rants.

 

 

 

However, the OP did point out the reason melee is so succesful. It has alot less to do with specs and spell effects and all of that. The key to melee is that in most casses, all offensive abilitys are contained in the weapon itself. Short of the few pices of armour that give some stat boosts for offense, a whip will hit the enemy wether you wear rune armour or not. Range weapons and magic spells suffer serious penalties if they try to combine armour. Armandyl armour thankfuly has negative melee bonuses, leaving it for rangers and the most dedicated melee style mage hunters (mages have weak armour so it makes no difference really). Within there own combat domains, mage destroys melee. Its melees flexability that makes it the winner.

I contend that for a warrior to use armour outside of melee is hybriding, because you are using something reqireing combat skills outside of your class. Using another classes armour counts as hybriding just as much as using another classes weapon. The OP has even pointed out that most mage offensive capability is in their armour. Using mage/range armour in melee combat means that you are hybriding and thus disqualified from standard melee overpowered rants.

 

 

 

However, the OP did point out the reason melee is so succesful. It has alot less to do with specs and spell effects and all of that. The key to melee is that in most casses, all offensive abilitys are contained in the weapon itself. Short of the few pices of armour that give some stat boosts for offense, a whip will hit the enemy wether you wear rune armour or not. Range weapons and magic spells suffer serious penalties if they try to combine armour. Armandyl armour thankfuly has negative melee bonuses, leaving it for rangers and the most dedicated melee style mage hunters (mages have weak armour so it makes no difference really). Within there own combat domains, mage destroys melee. Its melees flexability that makes it the winner.

 

 

 

 

 

And Range/magic are NOT flexible? Put on Torags helm and equip a shield, and you have a Tank ranger with great melee defences. a -2 attack for using the helm for 60+ defences seems pretty fair to me.

Magic spells need to be more effective and last longer. Also, did you all notice how when GWD came out, no magic robes or anything really magic related was added?

Not ~Indeapth~, and incorrect.

 

 

 

Melee ...The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities.

 

 

 

Range ...while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor.

 

 

 

Magic ...Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

And where would these numbers come from?

 

 

 

The numbers come from how the attacker get's their offensive powers.

 

Didn't make sense to me at all. Additionally, based on what you determine that magic accuracy is so armour-relied or that a mage tank is ineffective?

Not ~Indeapth~, and incorrect.

 

 

 

Melee ...The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities.

 

 

 

Range ...while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor.

 

 

 

Magic ...Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

And where would these numbers come from?

 

 

 

The numbers come from how the attacker get's their offensive powers.

 

Didn't make sense to me at all. Additionally, based on what you determine that magic accuracy is so armour-relied or that a mage tank is ineffective?

 

 

 

Both.

 

 

 

Consider that the best wand(master) only gives +20 magic bonus, while the armor gives hundreds. Compare that to ranged where the weapon gives abount a hundred and the armor about a hundred(give or take), and the melee where the weapon is +100s and armor only in the tens.

Melee ...The weapon counts for about 90% of the meleer's offensive abilities.

 

 

 

Range ...while accuracy depends 50/50 on weapon and armor.

 

 

 

Magic ...Magic bonus(accuracy) is about 90% dependant on the armor.

 

 

 

And where would these numbers come from?

 

 

 

The numbers come from how the attacker get's their offensive powers.

 

 

 

They tell only half the story. Yes, a large amount (not quite half) of range's attack bonuses come from its armor, but that does not represent half of their offensive power. Not even close.

 

 

 

 

In the case of armor, we see that melee is again, at an advantage. They can use whatever armor they want without severely damaging their offensive abilities. Range can tank, but still needs some range armor. Mages are fairly restricted to magic armor. They need it for offensive powers, but have no defense.

 

 

 

 

So what? Rangers have higher defence in melee, range, and mage than melee'ers. And Ahrim's gives significant melee defence and impressive mage defence. You seem to be ignoring mage defence.

 

 

 

And all this flexibility mumbo-jumbo means nothing unless melee is indeed capable of doing more damage than mage or range. This is in fact true, but you didn't mention that point anywhere in your post.

 

 

 

Here's the way I see it: In PvE situations, range is slightly underpowered in some cases and mage is quite underpowered. In PvP, melee is by no means superior to range or mage.

 

 

 

Actually, rangers only have more magic defense. Tank rangers usually use a Torag's Helm, Karils, Black, or Armadyl Body, and Torag Platelegs. Rune C bow as weapon, and a shield such as Granite or Dragonfire. The key weakness is the body, which is needed for range acuracy. A melee user can use a platebody, making their range and melee bonus much greater.

 

 

 

And Ahrim Robes don't have that much defense. Hell, a DDS can easily rip through dragonhide.

I think its not the class that counts, its how you use it. In several pk videos I watch, alot of people use ice barrage to freeze a running enenmy. After the enemy is frozen, the caster runs infront of the enemy so after he is unfrozen and starts running away again, he can be refroze.

 

 

 

Take the range/2h hit for example. The melee is used as a secondary to kill the enemy. They all are NEARLY balanced.

 

 

 

For my uses, I perfer range to pk with as a main method. At a higher elvel range, you can swiftly lower an enemy's hp in a no-armour fight and then use magic or melee to finish off.

 

 

 

FYI: 99 range using a saradomin sword is amazing. My friend did a ko on me. He shot two rune arrows hitting 20 damage each on me and then whipping out ss and doing spec and hitting another 60 damage on me. I only got off 1 dds spec too :/.

AFter spending alot of time with dragon claw'ers, I found their weakness. Magic Short bow. IT hits FASTER then the claws, allowing an extra hit between the Claw's specs, and, combine with veng, I've dealt over 72 damage in two shots with the bow. That guy was KO'ed so quickly, I wish I had it on video.

 

Find new ways to use the skills to your advantage. Find weaknesses. Who would have thought a 30m piece of equipment could be dispatched by a handful of runes, and a 3k bow?

AFter spending alot of time with dragon claw'ers, I found their weakness. Magic Short bow. IT hits FASTER then the claws, allowing an extra hit between the Claw's specs, and, combine with veng, I've dealt over 72 damage in two shots with the bow. That guy was KO'ed so quickly, I wish I had it on video.

 

Find new ways to use the skills to your advantage. Find weaknesses. Who would have thought a 30m piece of equipment could be dispatched by a handful of runes, and a 3k bow?

 

 

 

I don't think this is real. Veng only reflects one hit. Plus, their second spec comes before yours.

Is melee overpowered? No.

 

Is melee faulty on the way its based compared to the triangle? Yes.

 

 

 

Assessment of Accuracy's:

 

 

 

Range Accuracy = Range level + Range Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Range Def Bonus)

 

Magic Accuracy = Magic level + Magic Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Magic level+Magic Def Bonus)

 

Melee Accuracy = Attack level + Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense leve+Defensive Bonus)

 

 

 

As you can see, Melee is the only combat type out of the three that depends only on the Skill level and Weapon Bonuses for accuracy. This allows melee players to wear any armor type while meleeing without any loss of accuracy, which makes the way its compared to the others faulty.

 

 

 

If melee was based partly on the attack level and partly on offensive stats which would be given to melee armor, that alone would solve 90% of the problems with the combat triangle being off scale. Players could still hybrid, but would have reduced accuracy penalties for it. A meleer switching from rune armor to dragon hide would suffer the same accuracy loss as a ranger switching from dragon hide to mystic.

 

 

 

Ah, a good example. Here is a common misconception. Although you are correct in the colored text, the black text is essential.

 

 

 

Lets look at it.

 

 

 

 

 

Range Accuracy = Range level + Range Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense+Range Def Bonus)-Melee has high defense-Rangers(Normal have low defense)-Rangers(Tank has moderate defense)-Magic has almost no defense.

 

Magic Accuracy = Magic level + Magic Armor/Weapon Bonuses - (1/2 Defense level+Magic Level+Magic Def Bonus)-Melee has high defense(Dragonhide)-Range has high defense-Magic has moderate defense

 

Melee Accuracy = Attack level + Weapon Bonuses - (Opponents Defense leve+Defensive Bonus)-Melee has high defense-Range(normal has low defense)-Range(tank has moderate defense)-Magic has no defense

 

 

 

The key is defensive abilities.