11th June 2009 - Macro-detection systems update

[Musky44]

I have always been curious... is autotyping a macro? Or is that something completely different? I sure would like to find a way to make those merch clans autochating, "Make millions join blah blah" a thing of the past.

 

 

 

I always wondered if I was reporting it right... under disruptive behavior or macroing? Anyone know for sure? Thanks.

 

 

 

That's macroing.

[Ravenkana]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

Obviously, they're lying, and aside from being immoral, it is, more importantly, unprofessional. If this game catered to an older audience and had more coverage from the gaming community, there would be some pretty hefty repercussions.

 

 

 

In fact, is it legal by either American or British law to lie to your customers?

[MyWorld77]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they are nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

[JFonseka]

It's funny, I've been around on RS since 2002 or so, and I'm sure there are plenty of others here too. I recall many, many, many times over the years that I've seen situations like this. They tell us thousands will be banned, even gave us a ban list once titled "cheating scum", they talk at length about improved detection systems. What happens? There happens to be even more that come in more ingenious ways to bot, then a year or two later, there's suddenly another "update".

 

 

 

This is a cat and mouse game, full of scare tactics, and propaganda like someone here said. And half of you are clapping "omgwtflolz0rdz jagex got rid of botters for me, clap clap", yes, there's probably 10,000 more still roaming around undetected.

 

 

 

It's not like they're going to say "we've caught a 1000, but we're sure there's another 5000 botting that our systems haven't detected"

 

 

 

Botting won't disappear, it's been there since the start, it will continue to be there.

[JFonseka]

im very certain 900 accounts with a rank of 116k or less where banned today

 

 

 

my rank dropped from 116.9k to 116.1k without me gaining a single lvl, i usualy drop abuot 100 ranks per day when not gaining lvls (i later got 5 lvls in 1 login so yay it was a happy ending dont worry)

 

 

 

Yea, they banned people I'm sure, but 900 is a pretty small number of botters I reckon. Even if they banned 10,000. I think that number alone would indicate how many there are actually out there. Jagex has a pretty good programming base, but they aren't the only ones with programming skills and ingenious ways.

[Ravenkana]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

[MyWorld77]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

 

 

 

Mmmmhmmm so they are. But what exactly are they doing that may be considered illegal. Propaganda? Saying they can do one thing and they really can't? Maybe they can or maybe they can't. If that were the case I would sue every weight loss program commerical, and heck even the president. I am sure things are said every day that we all know is bullstuffings... but I doubt it could be grounds for legal actions or rewards. You could just quit? :)

 

 

 

Meh it's just a scare tatic. If you are doing things right, then I wouldn't worry about anything.

[JFonseka]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

 

 

 

They can ban you and delete your account without any warning, and there is nothing you can do, that's just part of the terms and conditions. I don't blame them for it. Runescape was not meant to be played out in the courtroom.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter about international laws in this case, it's based in Britain, and the terms and conditions simply state, that they ultimately own the account and can do whatever they want with it, that's what you agreed to. Simple.

[Ravenkana]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

 

 

 

They can ban you and delete your account without any warning, and there is nothing you can do, that's just part of the terms and conditions. I don't blame them for it. Runescape was not meant to be played out in the courtroom.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter about international laws in this case, it's based in Britain, and the terms and conditions simply state, that they ultimately own the account and can do whatever they want with it, that's what you agreed to. Simple.

This may be true.

 

 

 

But what if I rented a storage room, signed the agreement for six months storage and abided by everything in the contract. Then, suddenly, one day they toss all my stuff out without warning. When questioned, the owner tells me he suspected that I had breached the contract while under my own free will.

 

 

 

Now take this to court and see how the judge rules.

 

 

 

Just because you sign a contract, it doesn't mean they have all power. If they don't follow it, or if the contract itself has illegal clauses, it could mean the whole thing is null and void.

 

 

 

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

 

 

 

Mmmmhmmm so they are. But what exactly are they doing that may be considered illegal. Propaganda? Saying they can do one thing and they really can't? Maybe they can or maybe they can't. If that were the case I would sue every weight loss program commerical, and heck even the president. I am sure things are said every day that we all know is bullstuffings... but I doubt it could be grounds for legal actions or rewards. You could just quit? :)

 

 

 

Meh it's just a scare tatic. If you are doing things right, then I wouldn't worry about anything.

But in a world where McDonald's can be sued for serving hot coffee and patients are more than willing to bite the hand that heals them, then you'd think Jagex would be a little more careful with what they say, hmm?

 

 

 

Furthermore, weight loss commercials simply offer testimonies and what you CAN do on the plan. And I believe that everything that Politicians say prior to election is just what they WANT to do.

 

 

 

Anyhoo, they're not above the law either. Does Nixon ring a bell?

[samurai_fly]

Ravenkana: You seem so sure that they're lying, but can you prove it? It is a dangerous assumption to make. While we're talking lawsuits, have you ever heard of a little thing called libel? Making unfounded claims about anybody that have the potential to damage their reputation is treading in dangerous territory.

 

 

 

To the other people who are talking about JaGEx monitoring what people are running on their computers and such, the JVM runs in a sandbox when running applets. This is a security measure put in place so that a java applet cannot access files on a computer, or do other such nefarious things. The only way they would be able to detect a program running, I believe, would be if it interacted with their servers or clients in any way. This is the way in which the "best" (and I use the term VERY lightly) macroing programs work I believe. Another option you have is programs that move the mouse, and these are, as has been mentioned earlier, prone to failure and mistakes in coding. I imagine it is VERY difficult to code in how to handle randoms, let alone deal with the problem of appearing lifelike. It has been said earlier, but it bears repeating: the Turing test has yet to be beaten.

[Ravenkana]

Ravenkana: You seem so sure that they're lying, but can you prove it? It is a dangerous assumption to make. While we're talking lawsuits, have you ever heard of a little thing called libel? Making unfounded claims about anybody that have the potential to damage their reputation is treading in dangerous territory.

 

Yes. Yes I can. Not with their inside information, or even a basic knowledge of programming, but with Philosophy.

 

 

 

You see, by removing the ability to appeal, Jagex is implying that their macroing software is 100% correct and never catches an innocent. Philosophy tells us that all or nothing statements are almost always wrong. They imply that you are omniscient, which I'm sure Jagex's computers are not. If they are, us fleshy humans would have been long gone by now. In other words, EVERYTHING MUST HAVE SOME MARGIN FOR ERROR. Even if it's .01%. That's what Civ 4 does- even if I attack a half dead spearman with a Panzer tank, he still has that margin of error to survive.

[samurai_fly]

Ah, but you assume that JaGEx relies purely on their computer's to make that judgement, when it has already been stated in this thread that this is not true. Sure, lets assume that the computer software got it wrong, and flagged an innocent. That's all it has done though, flagged it. JaGEx have been quoted saying that after their system flags a person, a HUMAN checks each one personally, to ensure that the computer got it right. Even then, if ALL this fails, a person wrongfully accused has not had all of their avenues of contact with JaGEx removed, just the easiest ones. Imagine, if you will, a hypothetical situation. 10,000 macroers, botters, autoers, whatever, are banned. If half of these people appeal, JaGEx has 5,000 appeals to read from people who know that they have committed a crime and haven't got away with it, yet try their luck anyway. This is valuable time JaGEx staff don't have.if out of 10,000 bans, there was 1 wrongfully accused, I guarantee you they would find a way to contact JaGEx.

 

 

 

While we talk philosophy, all of this has been mentioned already in this thread, which isn't long, so I assume you've read it. You, then, are committing one of the worst crimes in philosophy: you ignore perfectly valid arguments simply because they disagree with your own.

[Da_Latios]

The only worry I have is that some people could be wrongfully banned. :S I mean, how does the detection system work? I don't think they've told us, for obvious reasons, but it's still scary to think that I could be banned for using, say, Fraps.

[The Dark Lord]

Sounds like another case of "guilty until never proven innocent". It's not fair on the players whose accounts were hijacked by some [puncture]s that wanted to use macros on them and effectively got that person's account banned. Now, they lose their account permanently, cannot even appeal, and lose all subscription fees put into the account. If they actually gave details of their "detection" system, it'd help us know the legitimacy of it. Until they provide us with a competent customer support system, I will continue to doubt the legitimacy of any other such "'accurate' anti-cheating system" that they put in place.

[aevojoey]

I wonder how many high level hunters doing the 5 box X at feldip RedChins will be baned.

 

Virtually every world, every hour of the day has one or two.

 

I'm sure not all of the 5Xers are bots but they almost never change their pattern.

 

One time I saw one setup a box out of the pattern, catch a chin, and he didn't pick it up till it disappeared.

[OmgFearless]

The only improvement here I see ehre is that their not giving people second chances anymore.

 

 

 

Otherwise they really cant beat the people who design these bots. I mean there are whole communities of incredibely smart nerds with nothing better to do than make these bots that get around Jageax's Ban Hammer :ohnoes: .

[Lets_3ekout]

The only improvement here I see ehre is that their not giving people second chances anymore.

 

 

 

Otherwise they really cant beat the people who design these bots. I mean there are whole communities of incredibely smart nerds with nothing better to do than make these bots that get around Jageax's Ban Hammer :ohnoes: .

 

The ability to program doesn't make someone a nerd. Infact the inability to do basic programs would you make you little short of an idiot (that isn't to say that if you never tried to program your an idiot, of course).

 

 

 

In defence of bot-creators, making these sorts of things is extremely good practice at coding. Downloading someones program and running it (people often like to call themselves "hackers" when they run someone elses code, quite sad TBH) is quite another story.

[Hunter360x]

^+1

 

and...

 

Hurrah for Zero Tolerance!!! :thumbsup:

 

Even if its just propaganda there will probably be a few people who will be deterred from using macros, so it better than nothing lol.

 

 

 

Hunter

[Knotch_Blade]

Sounds like another case of "guilty until never proven innocent". It's not fair on the players whose accounts were hijacked by some [puncture]s that wanted to use macros on them and effectively got that person's account banned. Now, they lose their account permanently, cannot even appeal, and lose all subscription fees put into the account. If they actually gave details of their "detection" system, it'd help us know the legitimacy of it. Until they provide us with a competent customer support system, I will continue to doubt the legitimacy of any other such "'accurate' anti-cheating system" that they put in place.

 

 

 

I agree, I think this is huge amount of fear tactics, scares away incoming "tempted" macroers, and slows the already running bots.

 

 

 

It's obvious why, if JaGEx posted how their system works, the guys who program the bots will try and adjust to the new "requirements" and with a decent understanding of Java, it's not hard to adjust prewritten bot codes to match the new requirements.

 

 

 

I think newer accidental bans are not any more likely than before, the majority of the banning has already occured, but I was freaking out when I read the news update, I've been mining alot recently, and AFK mining pure essence; I prayed for no reports.

 

 

 

I mean I actually don't like them posting new macro system updates, it's like a warning to all the botters out there, and also sparks a fire in the heart of the WBMs who report someone for being afk in a bank ._.

 

 

 

Overall, Good work JaGEX, just don't make a huge deal about "beefing up" the anti macro systems, it only alerts coders to adjust their bots immediately.

 

 

 

Wasn't it Andrew who said something along the lines that macros may become undetectable, it's this constant one-upping that will ruin RuneScape.

[CheapMark]

Well for me this update just further increases the validity of high levels and the overall awsomeness of runescape, Happy Days :

[Wachtwoord]

If Jagex can back up their talk, this is quite the update. Lucipher6 should serve as great of an example that could be. No one should get away with cheating, I really don't care if they macroed 10 hours out of a million. It's the principle and that is no one should macro, ever.

 

The question is whether he really did macro or not. As pointed out, no system is perfect and he may have been banned innocent. I'm not saying he didn't macro, but I'm also sceptical about blindly believing Jagex and calling him a macroer.

[pulli23]

Anybody believing their claim is more foolish than I imagined..

 

 

 

Similar to the inability of virus scanners to detect all virusses it is impossible to detect all macroers.. Such a system would solve the halting problem, something which is proven in 1936 to be unsolvable already!

 

 

 

quote from

 

Adleman proved: If an algorithm exists that can prove the presence of viruses in general case than exists an algorithm that solves the halting problem (Reductio ad absurdum - proof by contradiction).

 

 

 

Now since no one can ever be sure (halting problem is unsolvable for both the human as well as computers) if another person is using a bot, banning is completely wrong - explain to me, why should someone be banned if they are innocent..

 

 

 

OW AND STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW JAGEX CAN REMOVE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION LIKE THEY WANT: they can't, it's completely ilegal to do unless given a refund or a proof in advance. (meaning, you shouldn't have to ask for proof).. - Problem is, going to court is more expensive these days than a year's subscription, and jagex knows that, so they know they can just ban anyone cause nobody would ever go to the court for this.

[anish00b]

i haven't read the whole thread but i think its just a scare tactic from jagex, to see how many high levels cut down on their botting..yes a few accounts may have been banned but that because jagex might've kept the names of the accounts that have been botting in the past and then banned them in the next coming days i reckon.

 

 

 

Also, since most of the botters use a certain program that doesn't run from the Runescape website, its very easy to spot who's botting and who's not...but i reckon they'll have a fix for that soon(the botters), so until then i hope people learn to bot less/not at all.

[OmgFearless]

The only improvement here I see ehre is that their not giving people second chances anymore.

 

 

 

Otherwise they really cant beat the people who design these bots. I mean there are whole communities of incredibely smart nerds with nothing better to do than make these bots that get around Jageax's Ban Hammer :ohnoes: .

 

The ability to program doesn't make someone a nerd. Infact the inability to do basic programs would you make you little short of an idiot (that isn't to say that if you never tried to program your an idiot, of course).

 

 

 

In defence of bot-creators, making these sorts of things is extremely good practice at coding. Downloading someones program and running it (people often like to call themselves "hackers" when they run someone elses code, quite sad TBH) is quite another story.

 

 

 

Didn't mean it in a harsh way :wall: .

[zotto]

Obviously they can't detect some of the new macro-systems the minute they are launched.

 

However, after some time the system will most likely be detected and added to the list of 'all' macro-systems.

 

 

 

Therefore they know all macro-systems.

 

 

 

The main limiting principle here is time. And this isn't a problem since new macro-systems will not be used by the masses. Just a few select few. Once it is started to be used my many people the chances of Jagex detecting it increases.

 

 

 

And the promise is fulfilled.

 

 

 

To be honest I find the entire drama around whether all means all rather silly.

 

 

 

Propaganda?

 

 

 

That would be if they say they do their best to eliminate macro'ers and do the opposite. They actually do their best to eliminate all macro'ers.

 

 

 

They missed one or two?

 

 

 

So what?

 

 

 

In science 100% isn't 100.0% either. 100% doesn't actually have to mean all either.

 

 

 

Let's keep a perspective here.

 

 

 

They promise they will detect all macro systems. Which should be read as the most common ones.

 

 

 

That's all they need to do. Who cares whether they fail to see the fringe. And once the fringe becomes the norm, they will be able to detect those.

 

 

 

Case closed.