11th June 2009 - Macro-detection systems update

[Shadow93]

I believe this happened yesterday too :

 

 

 

 

That made my day :lol: I hope they ban all auto typers as well... :shame:

 

 

 

Also, they don't catch a bot by how repetetive its behaviour is, they catch it simply because they can DETECT the program running. :thumbup:

[Bini]

This does look like good news but I have to agree that it is bad that they can't appeal but then again it is true what MMH said in Unknwnwrrior's post.

 

 

..............

 

 

 

If somebody is *genuinely* and *absolutely* certain that there has been a mistake, they will find a number of ways to contact us are still available.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

~ MMH ~

 

Anyone that have put alot of time on their account and knows that Jagex made a misstake would most likely never rest until they get their account back. I know I would do everything I could to get my account back if I was wrongfully banned.

 

Macroers would never take the time to get their account back as they are too lazy to even play the game. So giving them a chance to appeal would just be too easy for their lazy [wagon] to waste Jagex staff time once again. Instead, as someone else suggested earlier in this thread, make the appeal system harder or more time consuming for the user. Make it so you can't just Copy-Paste and click Appeal.

 

 

 

A guilty man will give up after some time, an innocent man will go through hell to prove his innocence. Of course, it's different from human to human.

[Ravenkana]

This does look like good news but I have to agree that it is bad that they can't appeal but then again it is true what MMH said in Unknwnwrrior's post.

 

 

..............

 

 

 

If somebody is *genuinely* and *absolutely* certain that there has been a mistake, they will find a number of ways to contact us are still available.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

~ MMH ~

 

Anyone that have put alot of time on their account and knows that Jagex made a misstake would most likely never rest until they get their account back. I know I would do everything I could to get my account back if I was wrongfully banned.

 

Macroers would never take the time to get their account back as they are too lazy to even play the game. So giving them a chance to appeal would just be too easy for their lazy [wagon] to waste Jagex staff time once again. Instead, as someone else suggested earlier in this thread, make the appeal system harder or more time consuming for the user. Make it so you can't just Copy-Paste and click Appeal.

 

 

 

A guilty man will give up after some time, an innocent man will go though hell to prove his innocence. Of course, it's different from human to human.

But how much information on their site do they have? Email address? Telephone Number? Mailing address?

 

 

 

Sure, they could make a new account, get either the exp or pay to become members to access the forums and plead their case, but it is just a game.

 

 

 

Older players, after a while, will just give up, realizing that if a company will ban them without any proof or chance to appeal, they shouldn't be giving them time or money in the first place.

[glasscube]

Lol what a bunch of propaganda. Jagex's detection system is basically recording your mouse clicks, how your mouse moves and keystrokes. The two biggest bots use mouse functions that basically form a bezier spline for movement, giving the mouse movements nice human looking paths, and clicks are random. One of two of those bots is a java bot though, and its always been my belief that it was detectable (The way it functions). However that doesn't stop BCEL bots though since they never modify the client, they can not be detected (unless they have a bad mouse function or do something stupid etc).

 

 

 

In other words, most of the problem is gone until another bot becomes popular (That is if they aren't just making a bunch of BS up and at least some of this is true). Doubt it though.

[Fools_Taco]

Well the responses quoted from the official forum from jagax make me feel a little better. At least they have a human looking over it. I still find it hard to believe they have a real person looking over ALL the ban cases, seeing as how they ban thousands of people.

[Bini]

This does look like good news but I have to agree that it is bad that they can't appeal but then again it is true what MMH said in Unknwnwrrior's post.

 

 

..............

 

 

 

If somebody is *genuinely* and *absolutely* certain that there has been a mistake, they will find a number of ways to contact us are still available.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

~ MMH ~

 

Anyone that have put alot of time on their account and knows that Jagex made a misstake would most likely never rest until they get their account back. I know I would do everything I could to get my account back if I was wrongfully banned.

 

Macroers would never take the time to get their account back as they are too lazy to even play the game. So giving them a chance to appeal would just be too easy for their lazy [wagon] to waste Jagex staff time once again. Instead, as someone else suggested earlier in this thread, make the appeal system harder or more time consuming for the user. Make it so you can't just Copy-Paste and click Appeal.

 

 

 

A guilty man will give up after some time, an innocent man will go though hell to prove his innocence. Of course, it's different from human to human.

But how much information on their site do they have? Email address? Telephone Number? Mailing address?

 

 

 

Sure, they could make a new account, get either the exp or pay to become members to access the forums and plead their case, but it is just a game.

 

 

 

Older players, after a while, will just give up, realizing that if a company will ban them without any proof or chance to appeal, they shouldn't be giving them time or money in the first place.

 

I see what you mean and when I think about it, even though people love thier account so much those thoughts would eventually come up and they would give up but I still think that making the appeal system a bit more time consuming or somehow "harder" would probably help Jagex and the legit players as Jagex wouldn't get as many appeals as they would get with their "Copy-Paste" system.

 

 

 

If they are not going to let anyone appeal, we should come with suggestions to improve it that way we can give Jagex a reason to let us appeal and a good suggestion to how.

 

Well the responses quoted from the official forum from jagax make me feel a little better. At least they have a human looking over it. I still find it hard to believe they have a real person looking over ALL the ban cases, seeing as how they ban thousands of people.

 

I don't think they look at every case. They maybe have a detection system for each different kinds of bots. I don't mean detection system for each bot that exists, but for each kind of bot. Or there is a bot out there that is used by a majority of the macroers, this way Jagex detection system could detect and ban anyone using that bot without any human having to look at it.

 

 

 

I don't think all these thousand's of macroers make their own sofisticated bots, in fact there are most likely a select few that does that. Most of them just download whatever they can find on the internet.

[Sinkhan]

 

Secondly, it is impossible to distinguish a macro program from a human with high efficiency, in this context. It is very easy to program a macro that could just about flawlessly mimic a human player; most authors are simply script kiddies and novice programmers, not even remotely experienced programmers, from what I have seen.

 

 

 

 

Oh noes! Computers can pass the Turing test :o

[glasscube]

 

I don't think all these thousand's of macroers make their own sofisticated bots, in fact there are most likely a select few that does that. Most of them just download whatever they can find on the internet.

 

 

 

Yeah, most people don't make their own bots they just download other made bots. But all the bots are fairly stealthy (And some are very stealthy, depending on the bot). You don't download a bot that has a 100% chance of getting you banned in one week, unless you plan on pumping out tons of throw-away accounts and botting 24/7 (back in A-ryan days). Now you can't do that, so people don't throw away their investment.

 

 

 

Just because people don't actually spend time botting, they do still spend time. It still takes time to get experience.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Okay, so the news announcement does come off as a little propaganda-y (definitely not a word), but it does hammer the point home nicely.

 

 

 

Let's be fair - there isn't a way to 100% detect everything, but to be truthful, we can't be sure of what percentage they're actually detecting. Jagex will never reveal how their macro detection schema works. I would put the estimate at something like 74-90% of all existing macros, and probably a little less for all private/unknown macro schema.

 

 

 

Even if I'm sugarcoating the results a little bit, and the numbers are lower, Jagex has assured the public that they make certain that the person getting banned deserves the ban. This part is done by hand. This improves their detection schema from whatever-it-was-before to around 94-96%.

 

 

 

Jard: Show me one example of source that can convincingly pass the Turing test. That's the only way that a bot could ever not be detected.

[jonni]

in a possibly unrelated incident, Lucipher6 (previously ranked in top 3?) is also banned.

 

 

 

Yeah the word is he was macroing

 

[hide=lucipher][/hide]

 

 

 

shame really

[Drakolord7]

 

 

 

Just because people don't actually spend time botting, they do still spend time. It still takes time to get experience.

 

 

 

What Is that supposed to mean?

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

 

 

 

Just because people don't actually spend time botting, they do still spend time. It still takes time to get experience.

 

 

 

What Is that supposed to mean?

 

I wonder if it was a thinly veiled, prepared, and thought-out attempt to defend botting.

 

 

 

Rule #1 of rulebreaking: Time is IRRELEVANT. Thank you.

[glasscube]

 

 

 

Just because people don't actually spend time botting, they do still spend time. It still takes time to get experience.

 

 

 

What Is that supposed to mean?

 

It means what it means - that even if you use a bot you still only get xx experience a hour. You don't make a account, bot for say 4 hours a day to only get banned a week or two later. That would be a total waste of time.

[FerretCU]

 

 

 

Perhaps they finally took my advice and tracked them the way I recommended awhile ago...

 

Don't look for them in game when they're botting ... look at the client they're using to connect to play RS :D Most bots out to the public these days tend to use their own clients [since they can't get into Jagex servers lol] hence should stand out in some way be it signed/unsigned clients and so on.

 

 

 

Track not the bot, but the client the games being played through and you shall find them

 

 

 

=D> GF botters.

 

 

 

Please note: This would also allow them to tell who's botting even when that person is playing legit. A common tactic used by them was to bot for awhile then pause/turn off the bots and play by hand through the same client so they seemed more human like then once they leave again continue the bot. ;) sneeky lil rats lol

[quelmotz]

Good job by Jagex!

 

 

 

For those who keep arguing about the system "not being able to detect a certain ABC bot or whatever", sure, there will always be a way to get around detection systems, etc, but at least we know jagex is trying hard to stop bots.

[Smapla]

 

 

 

Just because people don't actually spend time botting, they do still spend time. It still takes time to get experience.

 

 

 

What Is that supposed to mean?

 

It means what it means - that even if you use a bot you still only get xx experience a hour. You don't make a account, bot for say 4 hours a day to only get banned a week or two later. That would be a total waste of time.

 

 

 

i still don't understand the original post. the second post doesn't clarify it either

 

 

 

i'm not giving you a hard time, i honestly can not figure out if you're arguing a point, or just stating an opinion, or what

[glasscube]

Alright ill try once more - if after that ill give up.

 

 

 

Let us say that anyone can run 8 bots. And let us say that you run all 8 bots for 16 hours a day. And let us assume you get 50k exp a hour woodcutting. Now if Jagex can detect bots as good as they claim now, lets say you get banned in two weeks. Sure, you spend two weeks at 16 hours a day and now you got 8 accounts with 96ish woodcutting, but your also banned. There is no real good way to transfer money anymore, so running any bot that is guaranteed to get you banned is a waste of time. I mean sure, you actually don't do anything but you are still losing time because you gained nothing at all.

 

 

 

So if Jagex isn't talking BS (I can't say for sure, its in THEIR best interest to say they can detect X and Y) then yeah, a lot of botting population is gone because it is a waste of time to bot just to have it banned. The only reason why this bot in peculiar is so popular is because any noob can use it, and youtube doesn't help the matter.

[Master_Smither]

in a possibly unrelated incident, Lucipher6 (previously ranked in top 3?) is also banned.

 

 

 

Yeah the word is he was macroing

 

[hide=lucipher][/hide]

 

 

 

shame really

 

 

 

Wow he was a P mod too :o

 

 

 

Now maybe he was macroing on another account and considering Jagex's policy now is to ban all accounts related to the macro he got caught that way. Or of course he could have been fletching those arrows extremely efficiently.

[Lets_3ekout]

If Jagex can back up their talk, this is quite the update. Lucipher6 should serve as great of an example that could be. No one should get away with cheating, I really don't care if they macroed 10 hours out of a million. It's the principle and that is no one should macro, ever.

 

 

 

I've had friends auto in their houses (locked w/ priv off) using randomised bot programs (randoms intervals between clicks, random click locations on icons, etc.) and they still got caught within a week. Can't imagine what more they did TBH, the detection system has always seemed very strong if you ask me.

 

 

 

And that convo in the granite mine is hilarious :lol:

[Omali]

I can understand the effort they are trying to make, but I don't approve of lying to the public to get what you want, even if it's for your and/or their own good. What good does dishonesty bring?

 

 

 

A real world example: the American NSA would LOVE to have you think they can break through the toughest encryption available in a short amount of time... like in Dan Brown's book, the NSA had a computer called TRANSLTR with 3 million processors which could break a 10,000 bit key in under an hour. In reality, even if they DID have a computer of that power, it would take them up to 3 x 10^9733 years to brute force an 8096-bit RSA encryption key. But they are happy with most people not knowing that.

 

 

 

Reminds me of the South Park episode where the 9/11 conspiracy was a government conspiracy in order to make people think that the Government had the ability to spy on and silence people, giving them an imaginary power they never had, but people think they did.

[sees_all1]

 

I've had friends auto in their houses (locked w/ priv off) using randomised bot programs (randoms intervals between clicks, random click locations on icons, etc.) and they still got caught within a week. Can't imagine what more they did TBH, the detection system has always seemed very strong if you ask me.

 

 

 

I've always wanted to write my own bot - seemed like a fun thing to do. I've got code that moves my mouse around, and doesn't do anything useful, too much work to get it to be "human".

 

 

 

The one question I've always had is - can Jagex detect which processes are going around in the background, or what other stuff is chugging on the JVM?

 

Anyhow, if you want to program a macro in java, you'll want to use the Robot class. Its made for automated testing...

 

If Jagex is able to detect what other classes are instantiated, and in use by the JVM, then it'll be easy to detect java-based macroers.

 

 

 

One thing I will say is that when I move my mouse, I usually go about 2/3 of the way quickly, and then the last bit slowly, but more accurately. I'll bet that most macroers don't do that, or make as many mistakes or get as distracted as we do. I know that Jagex will know if they've got window focus or not, and why would a macroer look at forums, or browse youtube?

 

 

 

Also, would a macroer log in and out for 30 minutes at a time, or idle for a few minutes here and there?

 

 

 

And of course, macroers wouldn't talk to anyone, or interact in meaningful ways. I'm guessing that before Jagex decides to ban someone, they go check in on them while macroing. That way, if they don't go batsh*t with OMFG A JMOD, and don't respond, then voila, macroers.

 

 

 

But most of this is speculation. :lol: :lol: GF macroers.

[Yelloweyejj]

 

Also, they don't catch a bot by how repetetive its behaviour is, they catch it simply because they can DETECT the program running. :thumbup:

 

 

 

That sounds like some type of privacy invasion infringement. But who cares? Jagex does whatever they want.

[M0n]

I'm just curious how this "highly effective system" works, can it detect autoers if they aren't reported, or does it just look at the reported accounts?

[Squisher_33]

im very certain 900 accounts with a rank of 116k or less where banned today

 

 

 

my rank dropped from 116.9k to 116.1k without me gaining a single lvl, i usualy drop abuot 100 ranks per day when not gaining lvls (i later got 5 lvls in 1 login so yay it was a happy ending dont worry)

[MyWorld77]

I have always been curious... is autotyping a macro? Or is that something completely different? I sure would like to find a way to make those merch clans autochating, "Make millions join blah blah" a thing of the past.

 

 

 

I always wondered if I was reporting it right... under disruptive behavior or macroing? Anyone know for sure? Thanks.