11th June 2009 - Macro-detection systems update

[Ravenkana]

3 Lucipher6 2,376 1,257,839,542

 

From the hiscores. So yes, he's back. What did we learn? Luckily one of the best Runescape players didn't lower himself to macroing, and Jagex' macro detecting system is NOT bullet proof. Although the latter was already known, here is the proof.

Of course, to play Devil's Advocate, he could have received a temporary ban for something entirely unrelated.

[Bauke]

I've heard (from the appeal in the high levelled forum) that the cause for the ban was macroing.

[The Dark Lord]

I think it's pretty much agreed that this is is a bluff from Jagex (except the autoban, no appeals thing). If they truly had an impervious detection system, the ability for players to report macro users would be removed because it would be useless and not needed anymore. They used American spelling in their post by the way.

 

 

 

I still don't like the idea that I can be wrongfully banned and strong-armed by Jagex, while only famous players have a snowball's chance in hell of being able to appeal and automatically being unbanned.

[Zarfot]

As Lucipher6 was banned unjustly, clearly the system is not 100% accurate. Therefore, appeals definitely should be allowed. Lucipher was able to get a mod looking at his account quickly by having a friend post in the maxed forum, but of course not everyone has that luxury. He was NOT macroing and this is not a "second chance"; this was a mistake by Jagex and never should have been banned in the first place.

 

 

 

Also although maybe it sounds good for everyone to have an equal chance, it just doesn't seem right for Jagex to put as much thought into banning the rank 3 in RuneScape as into banning a level 3 in basic clothes chopping a yew tree.

[EGmaestro]

im still dissapointed, because im still waiting for jagex to come out with an official statement on price manipulation clans, not macroing...

 

 

 

i guess its a good thing, but i thing the no-appeal is a bad move.

[Sir_Squab]

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

 

 

 

They can ban you and delete your account without any warning, and there is nothing you can do, that's just part of the terms and conditions. I don't blame them for it. Runescape was not meant to be played out in the courtroom.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter about international laws in this case, it's based in Britain, and the terms and conditions simply state, that they ultimately own the account and can do whatever they want with it, that's what you agreed to. Simple.

This may be true.

 

 

 

But what if I rented a storage room, signed the agreement for six months storage and abided by everything in the contract. Then, suddenly, one day they toss all my stuff out without warning. When questioned, the owner tells me he suspected that I had breached the contract while under my own free will.

 

 

 

Now take this to court and see how the judge rules.

 

 

 

Just because you sign a contract, it doesn't mean they have all power. If they don't follow it, or if the contract itself has illegal clauses, it could mean the whole thing is null and void.

 

 

 

I'd like to mention what others have mentioned: this is propaganda, pure and simple.

 

 

 

lol. I can see your point. At least they were nice enough to warn everyone what will happen if they continue cheating, or have a thought about trying it. It's just a deterent. It's a game, and even in the game there are rules that need to be followed. As far as breaking American and British laws... a big ROFL. This is their game. Period. They are technically allowed to do anything they want, you agree to the terms and agreements. Unless they are breaking laws concerning your privacy or getting into your computer... good fight. :)

But they're based in Britain. Furthermore, there are such things as international laws.

 

 

 

Mmmmhmmm so they are. But what exactly are they doing that may be considered illegal. Propaganda? Saying they can do one thing and they really can't? Maybe they can or maybe they can't. If that were the case I would sue every weight loss program commerical, and heck even the president. I am sure things are said every day that we all know is bullstuffings... but I doubt it could be grounds for legal actions or rewards. You could just quit? :)

 

 

 

Meh it's just a scare tatic. If you are doing things right, then I wouldn't worry about anything.

But in a world where McDonald's can be sued for serving hot coffee and patients are more than willing to bite the hand that heals them, then you'd think Jagex would be a little more careful with what they say, hmm?

 

 

 

Furthermore, weight loss commercials simply offer testimonies and what you CAN do on the plan. And I believe that everything that Politicians say prior to election is just what they WANT to do.

 

 

 

Anyhoo, they're not above the law either. Does Nixon ring a bell?

 

 

 

Something worth pointing out: this is a game avatar. This is Britain. Less likely to get sued over.

 

 

 

Also, as quoted people have pointed out, there is a large difference between skillful deception and outright lying. Skillful deception means your telling the truth in a deceptive way.

 

 

 

Also, here's a way to misphrase their 0 tolerance on botting:

These days we are taking a zero-tolerance approach to macroing. Players caught for macroing dont receive a warning, or a chance to appeal, or even a last-chance appeal - they are just permanently banned.

 

 

 

Well, that could be interpreted that as long as Jagex believes you are an auto-er you cannot appeal. But, you could try and convince them you didn't auto.

 

 

 

Also, they never said you were perm-banned with no chance of appeal. It could be interpreted that they are saying that, if they beleive 100% you are botting, they skip temporary bans and other things that people who swear a lot get, and just ban.

 

 

 

I might be wrong. But I hope not. And I do not beleive I'm wrong, although I will admit that is in part because I do not want to believe I am wrong.

 

 

 

Anybody believing their claim is more foolish than I imagined..

 

 

 

Similar to the inability of virus scanners to detect all virusses it is impossible to detect all macroers.. Such a system would solve the halting problem, something which is proven in 1936 to be unsolvable already!

 

 

 

quote from

 

Adleman proved: If an algorithm exists that can prove the presence of viruses in general case than exists an algorithm that solves the halting problem (Reductio ad absurdum - proof by contradiction).

 

 

 

Now since no one can ever be sure (halting problem is unsolvable for both the human as well as computers) if another person is using a bot, banning is completely wrong - explain to me, why should someone be banned if they are innocent..

 

 

 

OW AND STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW JAGEX CAN REMOVE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION LIKE THEY WANT: they can't, it's completely ilegal to do unless given a refund or a proof in advance. (meaning, you shouldn't have to ask for proof).. - Problem is, going to court is more expensive these days than a year's subscription, and jagex knows that, so they know they can just ban anyone cause nobody would ever go to the court for this.

 

 

 

There is no practical difference between not being allowed to go to court about this, and having everyone 100% choose not to go to court about this.

 

 

 

Although, if a person paid by means of credit card, debt card, etc, it is entirely possible that Jagex might just refund the money if they do perm ban you. Anyways, whatever legal consequences for their actions people can think of here, Jagex will have an answer to; we are but simple people, whereas a company as big as Jagex will have a lawyer here or there.

 

 

 

Lets just say he is back?

 

 

 

You know, it occurs to me that it is a brave, or extraordinarily atheist, man or boy who makes his screen name a reference to the Morning Star.

 

 

 

In any case, either Jagex's whole we're getting tougher on macros was a bluff, or he was innocent.

 

 

 

No, it just takes an average Atheist. And there are plenty of those out there.

 

 

 

Also, I heard that 2 leaders from some of the top price manipulation clans have been banned or something. Mind you, it's all hearsay.

[konyzulphrea]

I guess they are not doing enough,they should have two ways to do

 

 

 

usually,i found that people may use Macroing for making bolts due to some issues(May be the physicsal questions,although Jagex group members use lawyers for avoid some unwelcome claiming in sueing),Can they do something like what they have done on arrows?

 

 

 

There are 6 major problem about this (yesterday,you were allowed to make 10 pats of butter per transaction,even you have more than 10,now the maximum sum is 28)

 

 

 

1.They allow people to make 150 arrows per transaction (15 is one set),but normal bolts making is not.

 

 

 

2.Enchantment,one transaction for one set of items,you can find the true questions if you try to make more than 1000 emerald bolts(e) or more than 10 bracelet of clay

 

 

 

Can they make a small improvement on this? allowing people make 10 per transaction is a good idea.

 

 

 

3. Cleaning herb,if they allow people to clean ten per transaction,they may discourage to use these macro tool for this?

 

 

 

4.Construction

 

Workshop is used for training your construction. but one click per one can be horrible,they should ask how many chairs that a player likes to make (Maximum is 10 due to some issues)?

 

 

 

5.Tablet

 

Same issues on 4.

 

 

 

6.Chatting

 

Can they add a command for repeating (Maximum count is 5)some message like selling saradomin gs?

 

 

 

I guess,if they can solve these issues,people will not use these tools anymore because you provide handy,reasonable methods.

[samurai_fly]

Ravenkana: Okay, here's what I think. NOTE: This is only my opinion. I have no idea what actually goes on behind the hallowed doors of JaGEx Ltd, but this is what I would do if it was my company/I was a programmer on their team. I assume, and it seems a fair assumption to make, that a lot of the macro-programs out there will be basic things that will be VERY easy to detect. We can assume then that JaGEx can be very sure that an account presenting with such obvious tell-tale signs as are shown by such a program is definitely botting, and can be banned with very little input from a human. This could include, but is not necessarily limited to, the types of macro-programs that interact directly with the RuneScape servers via a separate client. Any other account that exhibits "suspicious" activity will have a log kept of this activity. Once it reaches a certain point, when the software is reasonably certain that the player is macroing, then they are added to the pile of accounts to be checked by a human staff member. Depending on the data, this could involve nothing more than a cursory glance at the evidence - I'm sure you can appreciate that once they have seen how a certain macro-program works, they will become very good at recognising the signs it presents. If the evidence proves inconclusive, then perhaps it is checked in more detail by a human, or perhaps it is added to a program for further macro-detection, to be returned at a later date.

 

 

 

Another thing you should realise is that if these macro-programs are available to your average joe to download, and these will make up the vast majority of macro-programs, then JaGEx can download them too, and they can reverse-engineer them to see how they work. Once they know how they work, detecting them will be that much easier.

 

 

 

As an addendum, I never said that JaGEx staff were infallible, I was just stating that it was not left purely to the machines, as you were suggesting. I'm sure that if there is reasonable doubt in their mind as to whether a person was macroing or not, or indeed any doubt at all, they would give the player the benefit of the doubt. JaGEx themselves have stated that they "do not ban accounts lightly" - this suggests to me that if you play the game honestly, and without breaking the rules, you have nothing to fear.

 

 

 

Finally, to those saying that lucipher was banned unjustly, without inside information, there is no way you can be sure exactly what he was banned for. After the ridiculousness of the glitchathon that was the latest update, and the claims (later said to be false) of lost lent items on the forums that followed, one must take any information one reads on the forums with a grain of salt. I'm not saying he wasn't banned unjustly, I'm just saying that you can't be sure that he was.

[Omali]

This may be true.

 

 

 

But what if I rented a storage room, signed the agreement for six months storage and abided by everything in the contract. Then, suddenly, one day they toss all my stuff out without warning. When questioned, the owner tells me he suspected that I had breached the contract while under my own free will.

 

 

 

Now take this to court and see how the judge rules.

 

 

 

Just because you sign a contract, it doesn't mean they have all power. If they don't follow it, or if the contract itself has illegal clauses, it could mean the whole thing is null and void.

 

 

 

A runescape account and a storage room are two separate entities completely. Laws make it very difficult to throw out a tenant or buyer, it is 100% illegal for a landlord, be it of an apartment or a storage facility, to throw out the contract "on a hunch" early, would constitute breach of contract, and the landlord would be subject to a civil suit from the renter.

 

 

 

There are laws that exist to protect renters, no such laws exist for Runescape account owners.

 

 

 

But in a world where McDonald's can be sued for serving hot coffee and patients are more than willing to bite the hand that heals them, then you'd think Jagex would be a little more careful with what they say, hmm?

 

 

 

Furthermore, weight loss commercials simply offer testimonies and what you CAN do on the plan. And I believe that everything that Politicians say prior to election is just what they WANT to do.

 

 

 

Anyhoo, they're not above the law either. Does Nixon ring a bell?

 

 

 

I suggest you read up on health codes and safety guidelines. As difficult as it is to comprehend, there are indeed laws that protect consumers from buying dangerous foods, and temperature does match into it. The coffee McDonalds used to serve was practically boiling hot, and the person who sued suffered third degree burns, was forced to undergo skin grafting, and two years of treatment.

 

 

 

What they're doing isn't illegal, so there's nothing to worry about "being above the law".

[Squisher_33]

anyone else notice like that last 5 posts have been enormous?

[samurai_fly]

Yep.

[Ravenkana]

anyone else notice like that last 5 posts have been enormous?

I do not make long posts myself, but am the cause of long posts from others.

[Inuashakent]

I didn't read the (huge) posts above, just the OP so...

 

 

 

Here's my opinion on the Macro topic... I hate how they are trying to remain firm. I think it's just arrogant making the appeals more harsh (or nonexistant), especially with all the mains being banned for "macroing."

[samurai_fly]

I didn't read the (huge) posts above, just the OP so...

 

 

 

Here's my opinion on the Macro topic... I hate how they are trying to remain firm. I think it's just arrogant making the appeals more harsh (or nonexistant), especially with all the mains being banned for "macroing."

 

 

 

You would rather they went soft and let things go back to how they were pre-GE/wilderness-get-rid-off-ness-ness? To be perfectly honest, if they catch someone who is, in their honest opinion, a bot (bear in mind that they are in the best possible position to know this), then they have every right to ban them and deny any chance of an appeal. Your tone suggests that you believe there are many people being banned erroneously, but are you able to provide evidence of anyone who has without a doubt been wrongfully banned? I said it before, I'll say it again, if you play the game honestly, and keep your account secure, then you'll have nothing to worry about.

[joel_of_cow]

I believe this happened yesterday too :

 

[spooferfish]

I hope they can track auto talkers too. Every (nearly) full member's world I've visited has at least one of them (usually more) advertising those stupid manipulation CC's at the GE. -.-

 

 

 

I hope so too.

 

 

 

Good job on this update though. =D>

[X3EN]

I believe this happened yesterday too :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Normally you don't get "Connection lost" after you are kickbanned (looks like a fake): when an invisible JMod kickbanned me while fletching (just a few months ago) it was like "waiting for make X to finish -> BAM = login screen -> trying to login -> account suspended" (I was playing (as in sitting on a chair, clicking mouse, and looking @ the monitor)). I am very certain that since the macro system was updated they will ban a lot of people using mousekeys and only 'round half of them will be able to prove their innocence.

 

 

 

Oh, and everyone knows that public macro scripts are bad, because they are public. Even half-open macro scripts are bad, because you are not the only one who is able to view/analyze them.

 

 

 

P. S. Anyway, that JMod has a nice outfit.

[samurai_fly]

 

Normally you don't get "Connection lost" after you are kickbanned (looks like a fake): when an invisible JMod kickbanned me while fletching (just a few months ago) it was like "waiting for make X to finish -> BAM = login screen -> trying to login -> account suspended" (I was playing (as in sitting on a chair, clicking mouse, and looking @ the monitor)). I am very certain that since the macro system was updated they will ban a lot of people using mousekeys and only 'round half of them will be able to prove their innocence.

 

 

 

Oh, and everyone knows that public macro scripts are bad, because they are public. Even half-open macro scripts are bad, because you are not the only one who is able to view/analyze them.

 

 

 

P. S. Anyway, that JMod has a nice outfit.

 

 

 

JaGEx has already stated that they won't be banning people using mousekeys, what makes you so certain that they will?

[pulli23]

 

Normally you don't get "Connection lost" after you are kickbanned (looks like a fake): when an invisible JMod kickbanned me while fletching (just a few months ago) it was like "waiting for make X to finish -> BAM = login screen -> trying to login -> account suspended" (I was playing (as in sitting on a chair, clicking mouse, and looking @ the monitor)). I am very certain that since the macro system was updated they will ban a lot of people using mousekeys and only 'round half of them will be able to prove their innocence.

 

 

 

Oh, and everyone knows that public macro scripts are bad, because they are public. Even half-open macro scripts are bad, because you are not the only one who is able to view/analyze them.

 

 

 

P. S. Anyway, that JMod has a nice outfit.

 

 

 

JaGEx has already stated that they won't be banning people using mousekeys, what makes you so certain that they will?

 

 

 

Because it DID happen in the past, even after 11 june.. So what makes you so certain they will not? - They have proven more than once to be incapable of keeping their word..

[samurai_fly]

Because it DID happen in the past, even after 11 june.. So what makes you so certain they will not? - They have proven more than once to be incapable of keeping their word..

 

 

 

Do you have any proof of these accusations? Or are you just rehashing an old argument you heard somewhere? I may be wrong, but I personally have yet to see any evidence of these claims of people being banned for mousekeys. Bear in mind that second hand accounts are unreliable at best, and supposed first hand accounts are even less reliable without any proof.

[Bauke]

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing while he was using mousekeys. 'nuff said.

[X3EN]

That's because some JMods look after the true autoers, like that guy (the thread was up on tip it for a few hours, then it was removed) who managed to auto to 99 crafting + get other skills in 80s, even being warned for macroing over 13 times (there was a screenshot showing all the warnings)!

 

 

 

Sorry, but for me this news item looks like an excuse to ban both innocent and macroing people without any investigation (except the automated detection system) for "Greater Good". And this proves that jagex fully understands what they are doing (that they will most likely ban some innocent people permanently), while some of the veteran macroers will (as always) get away with a 10 day ban.

[Gribbzldinho]

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing while he was using mousekeys. 'nuff said.

 

 

 

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing. 'Nuff said.

 

 

 

You dont know if hes completely innocent.

[Bouwzie]

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing while he was using mousekeys. 'nuff said.

 

 

 

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing. 'Nuff said.

 

 

 

You dont know if hes completely innocent.

 

 

 

I think Bauke knows about that better than you do.

[samurai_fly]

I think I'm going to quit this thread. No matter how many times I say it, people just keep ignoring it. You have NO SOLID EVIDENCE of innocent people being banned for macroing. You have nothing but heresay, nothing but words from the mouths of the accused, who will always deny their involvement to the very end. Have fun with your fruitless discussion.