Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Zaaps1]

Again,

 

Rapier > Longsword

 

/thread?

 

No, that's way too general a statement.

[Naraku893]

Again,

 

Rapier > Longsword

 

/thread?

 

No, that's way too general a statement.

 

That doesnt matter because rapier is clearly better. This doesn't need a thread

[stonewall337]

Again,

 

Rapier > Longsword

 

/thread?

 

No, that's way too general a statement.

 

That doesnt matter because rapier is clearly better. This doesn't need a thread

Your location/avatar are quite fitting. Please go somewhere were your idiocy is wanted/tolerated.

[Naraku893]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

[Toad]

Keeping a close eye on this thread, keep it respectable please.

[stonewall337]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior. Are you guys just slow or what?

 

I will respond to what I feel is trolling by saying this: First off, a preface. I have both CLS and CR. CLS>CR IF a shield is needed, AND the monster has high defense. CLS is roughly = CR if a defender is used at bandos. The higher your stats, and the more bonuses you have (Defender, turmoil/piety, x pots, imbued rings, slayer helm, etc) the better choice a CR is over a CLS. If a monster has higher defense (namely bosses), a CLS losses less DPS by using a shield instead of defender then CR does. CR is better for all slayer tasks if maxed, except wyverns, where maul trumps both CR and CLS. In PvP, it depends on your style, some people prefer AGS pking, others whip+defender/shield. CR is better in a rune DM, but CLS has more blunt KO potential, assuming vengeance, and that your enemy doesn't mega safe.

[SirIzenhime]

, except wyverns, where maul trumps both CR and CLS.

 

What do you do about the ice breath?

[Elf Spice]

I'm getting CM as my second chaotic mainly for waterfiends, but I would love to slay wyverns with them too. I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread that it's possible with unicorn and soul split?

[stonewall337]

, except wyverns, where maul trumps both CR and CLS.

 

What do you do about the ice breath?

 

Pwny+ss

[Zaaps1]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

 

Cool. I'll bring my dds to GWD next time instead of my Godsword. It's faster.

 

You are being WAY to general, and are not even considering any scenario, just making an overall description. Yes, it has more speed, and that makes it better--USUALLY. This thread is all about debating the trade-off of the Rapier and what benefits the CLS may have that make it superior.

 

I've stated my view already, which is the fact that at maxed boss hunting stats (max melee, 99 mage, 99 sum, 95 prayer, overloads) the CLS offers effectiveness in more places that the Rapier does, and because you are so efficient at boss hunting already, the Rapier vs Longsword difference, in and of itself, makes very little impact by itself in the cases in which the Rapier IS superior.

 

Just saying that something is better, providing unanalyzed information everyone knows, and expecting everyone to accept it as a divine truth is arrogant and incendiary, given the huge amount of effort and thinking everyone else has put into this thread.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

 

Cool. I'll bring my dds to GWD next time instead of my Godsword. It's faster.

 

You are being WAY to general, and are not even considering any scenario, just making an overall description. Yes, it has more speed, and that makes it better--USUALLY. This thread is all about debating the trade-off of the Rapier and what benefits the CLS may have that make it superior.

 

I've stated my view already, which is the fact that at maxed boss hunting stats (max melee, 99 mage, 99 sum, 95 prayer, overloads) the CLS offers effectiveness in more places that the Rapier does, and because you are so efficient at boss hunting already, the Rapier vs Longsword difference, in and of itself, makes very little impact by itself in the cases in which the Rapier IS superior.

 

Just saying that something is better, providing unanalyzed information everyone knows, and expecting everyone to accept it as a divine truth is arrogant and incendiary, given the huge amount of effort and thinking everyone else has put into this thread.

I thought I already showed that if a target has equal slash or less slash defense than stab, then even if the defense is insanely, high, the rapier is better with close to max gear/stats

I'd say that's a pretty overwhelming conclusion.

[PereGrin]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

 

Cool. I'll bring my dds to GWD next time instead of my Godsword. It's faster.

 

You are being WAY to general, and are not even considering any scenario, just making an overall description. Yes, it has more speed, and that makes it better--USUALLY. This thread is all about debating the trade-off of the Rapier and what benefits the CLS may have that make it superior.

 

I've stated my view already, which is the fact that at maxed boss hunting stats (max melee, 99 mage, 99 sum, 95 prayer, overloads) the CLS offers effectiveness in more places that the Rapier does, and because you are so efficient at boss hunting already, the Rapier vs Longsword difference, in and of itself, makes very little impact by itself in the cases in which the Rapier IS superior.

 

Just saying that something is better, providing unanalyzed information everyone knows, and expecting everyone to accept it as a divine truth is arrogant and incendiary, given the huge amount of effort and thinking everyone else has put into this thread.

I thought I already showed that if a target has equal slash or less slash defense than stab, then even if the defense is insanely, high, the rapier is better with close to max gear/stats

I'd say that's a pretty overwhelming conclusion.

 

Where did you show this?

[Zaaps1]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

 

Cool. I'll bring my dds to GWD next time instead of my Godsword. It's faster.

 

You are being WAY to general, and are not even considering any scenario, just making an overall description. Yes, it has more speed, and that makes it better--USUALLY. This thread is all about debating the trade-off of the Rapier and what benefits the CLS may have that make it superior.

 

I've stated my view already, which is the fact that at maxed boss hunting stats (max melee, 99 mage, 99 sum, 95 prayer, overloads) the CLS offers effectiveness in more places that the Rapier does, and because you are so efficient at boss hunting already, the Rapier vs Longsword difference, in and of itself, makes very little impact by itself in the cases in which the Rapier IS superior.

 

Just saying that something is better, providing unanalyzed information everyone knows, and expecting everyone to accept it as a divine truth is arrogant and incendiary, given the huge amount of effort and thinking everyone else has put into this thread.

I thought I already showed that if a target has equal slash or less slash defense than stab, then even if the defense is insanely, high, the rapier is better with close to max gear/stats

I'd say that's a pretty overwhelming conclusion.

 

Again, the question is whether it is significantly better, because clearly, it is better in almost every location.

 

However, there are places where using a CLS is perhaps beneficial. In those elusive cases, I'd much rather have the advantage than have a much smaller advantage in the more common places. Think about it. There is no evidence that can prove the CLS is trash. Evidence proves the CLS is inferior at most locations, but nothing can say that it is astronomically worse. The sheer fact that we are debating its effectiveness in this thread proves that from an observational standpoint, the CLS is equal or better than the CR (again, observational standpoint). This is proven by the fact that the argument "I used _____ and beat ______ at ______" can go both ways. Thus, while it's possible that the CLS is immensely worse, it is more likely that where it is worse, it is not worse by a whole lot.

[ghjkl]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

 

Cool. I'll bring my dds to GWD next time instead of my Godsword. It's faster.

 

You are being WAY to general, and are not even considering any scenario, just making an overall description. Yes, it has more speed, and that makes it better--USUALLY. This thread is all about debating the trade-off of the Rapier and what benefits the CLS may have that make it superior.

 

I've stated my view already, which is the fact that at maxed boss hunting stats (max melee, 99 mage, 99 sum, 95 prayer, overloads) the CLS offers effectiveness in more places that the Rapier does, and because you are so efficient at boss hunting already, the Rapier vs Longsword difference, in and of itself, makes very little impact by itself in the cases in which the Rapier IS superior.

 

Just saying that something is better, providing unanalyzed information everyone knows, and expecting everyone to accept it as a divine truth is arrogant and incendiary, given the huge amount of effort and thinking everyone else has put into this thread.

I thought I already showed that if a target has equal slash or less slash defense than stab, then even if the defense is insanely, high, the rapier is better with close to max gear/stats

I'd say that's a pretty overwhelming conclusion.

 

Again, the question is whether it is significantly better, because clearly, it is better in almost every location.

 

However, there are places where using a CLS is perhaps beneficial. In those elusive cases, I'd much rather have the advantage than have a much smaller advantage in the more common places. Think about it. There is no evidence that can prove the CLS is trash. Evidence proves the CLS is inferior at most locations, but nothing can say that it is astronomically worse. The sheer fact that we are debating its effectiveness in this thread proves that from an observational standpoint, the CLS is equal or better than the CR (again, observational standpoint). This is proven by the fact that the argument "I used _____ and beat ______ at ______" can go both ways. Thus, while it's possible that the CLS is immensely worse, it is more likely that where it is worse, it is not worse by a whole lot.

CLS is worse at training by like 14%, thats a whole lot. CLS is worse than a bit at solo bandos and stuff without a defender/fighter hat/ardy cape. CR is never worse by a lot compared to CLS, so if you want a weapon that is never worse by a lot, then rapier is for you.

[MstrMonopoly]

Rapier has more speed than CLS making the CLS inferior.

 

Cool. I'll bring my dds to GWD next time instead of my Godsword. It's faster.

 

You are being WAY to general, and are not even considering any scenario, just making an overall description. Yes, it has more speed, and that makes it better--USUALLY. This thread is all about debating the trade-off of the Rapier and what benefits the CLS may have that make it superior.

 

I've stated my view already, which is the fact that at maxed boss hunting stats (max melee, 99 mage, 99 sum, 95 prayer, overloads) the CLS offers effectiveness in more places that the Rapier does, and because you are so efficient at boss hunting already, the Rapier vs Longsword difference, in and of itself, makes very little impact by itself in the cases in which the Rapier IS superior.

 

Just saying that something is better, providing unanalyzed information everyone knows, and expecting everyone to accept it as a divine truth is arrogant and incendiary, given the huge amount of effort and thinking everyone else has put into this thread.

I thought I already showed that if a target has equal slash or less slash defense than stab, then even if the defense is insanely, high, the rapier is better with close to max gear/stats

I'd say that's a pretty overwhelming conclusion.

 

Again, the question is whether it is significantly better, because clearly, it is better in almost every location.

 

However, there are places where using a CLS is perhaps beneficial. In those elusive cases, I'd much rather have the advantage than have a much smaller advantage in the more common places. Think about it. There is no evidence that can prove the CLS is trash. Evidence proves the CLS is inferior at most locations, but nothing can say that it is astronomically worse. The sheer fact that we are debating its effectiveness in this thread proves that from an observational standpoint, the CLS is equal or better than the CR (again, observational standpoint). This is proven by the fact that the argument "I used _____ and beat ______ at ______" can go both ways. Thus, while it's possible that the CLS is immensely worse, it is more likely that where it is worse, it is not worse by a whole lot.

CLS is worse at training by like 14%, thats a whole lot. CLS is worse than a bit at solo bandos and stuff without a defender/fighter hat/ardy cape. CR is never worse by a lot compared to CLS, so if you want a weapon that is never worse by a lot, then rapier is for you.

 

[sarcasm]What about waterfiends?[/sarcasm]

 

Anyway, this thread has pretty much convinced me to get the rapier.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Again, the question is whether it is significantly better, because clearly, it is better in almost every location.

 

However, there are places where using a CLS is perhaps beneficial. In those elusive cases, I'd much rather have the advantage than have a much smaller advantage in the more common places. Think about it. There is no evidence that can prove the CLS is trash. Evidence proves the CLS is inferior at most locations, but nothing can say that it is astronomically worse. The sheer fact that we are debating its effectiveness in this thread proves that from an observational standpoint, the CLS is equal or better than the CR (again, observational standpoint). This is proven by the fact that the argument "I used _____ and beat ______ at ______" can go both ways. Thus, while it's possible that the CLS is immensely worse, it is more likely that where it is worse, it is not worse by a whole lot.

Well let me take a closer look at my DPS calculations.

assuming both the longsword and the rapier are hitting 50% of the time or less, because that's the where the CLS starts getting good assuming good offensive gear and stats.

 

in such a scenario, the rapier is still better or equal, depending on if you're using a salve/slayer or not. but it doesn't make a huge difference.

Since, DPS more or less scales linearly with attack once you fall below 50% accuracy. As does strength, at high max hit.

 

It also happens, that at 50% or lower accuracy, DPS also scales roughly linearly with the target's maximum defense roll.

So if the target's stab defense is equal to its slash. Rapier on stab equals the CLS on slash.

If the target's stab defense is 5% higher than its slash, then CLS is 5% better than rapier on stab

If the target's stab defense is 9% higher than its slash, then CLS is 9% better dps rapier on stab

if target's stab defense is 10% higher than its slash, then youve reached the critical point and you're better off using the rapier on slash. (~9% is the critical point)

 

Afterwards, regardless of how much higher the target's stab defense is than its slash, the CLS is 9% better than a rapier on slash.

 

But you have to realize, the opposite is true and unbounded.

If the target is 5% weaker to stab than slash, then the rapier is 5% better than the cls.

and the critical point is 8%, before the CLS user should switch over to stab.

 

but that's just some info for you to consider.

 

but I think you're really misguided to use observational standpoints to judge the effectiveness of a weapon.

Qeltar claimed to have shown that a warrior ring was better than a berserker ring in many locations.

Where as if you look dice roll DPS systems, a 5% accuracy boost NEVER results in 5% higher dps than a berserker ring.

 

People play differently when they like/dislike the item they're using.

Objectively, I can't see many places where the CLS would be substantially better.

Definitely not enough places to justify getting a CLS just for those location.

 

Where did you show this?

page 43-44 of this thread

[Racheya]

Without sparking a huge... thing... if I wanted a Chaotic weapon for general slaying - which would be best? I've not got the levels or tokens yet, but it might become a goal.

[Toad]

Without sparking a huge... thing... if I wanted a Chaotic weapon for general slaying - which would be best? I've not got the levels or tokens yet, but it might become a goal.

 

General Slaying -> Rapier ;)

[SirIzenhime]

Without sparking a huge... thing... if I wanted a Chaotic weapon for general slaying - which would be best? I've not got the levels or tokens yet, but it might become a goal.

 

For training, easily rapier

(which this thread has stated many times :rolleyes: )

[Racheya]

Without sparking a huge... thing... if I wanted a Chaotic weapon for general slaying - which would be best? I've not got the levels or tokens yet, but it might become a goal.

 

For training, easily rapier

(which this thread has stated many times :rolleyes: )

I didn't want to read the whole thread and the last few pages didn't have the answer just a lot of confusing things :unsure:

 

Thanks anyway guys :)

[Naraku893]

Without sparking a huge... thing... if I wanted a Chaotic weapon for general slaying - which would be best? I've not got the levels or tokens yet, but it might become a goal.

 

For training, easily rapier

(which this thread has stated many times :rolleyes: )

I didn't want to read the whole thread and the last few pages didn't have the answer just a lot of confusing things :unsure:

 

Thanks anyway guys :)

 

 

Rapier for all slayer but you could use chaotic maul at waterfiends

[Elf Spice]

Anyone have an idea of DPS of maul vs SS against waterfiends?

[Naraku893]

Anyone have an idea of DPS of maul vs SS against waterfiends?

 

Not sure but maul can hit 700+ on task.

[Zaaps1]

 

CLS is worse at training by like 14%, thats a whole lot. CLS is worse than a bit at solo bandos and stuff without a defender/fighter hat/ardy cape. CR is never worse by a lot compared to CLS, so if you want a weapon that is never worse by a lot, then rapier is for you.

 

Yes but remember I was talking about the maxed boss hunting skills scenario, where you have maxed melee, 95 prayer, and overloads/extremes. Given that, training utility is totally meaningless as the player would already have 99 attack, strength, and defense.

 

 

Well let me take a closer look at my DPS calculations.

assuming both the longsword and the rapier are hitting 50% of the time or less, because that's the where the CLS starts getting good assuming good offensive gear and stats.

 

in such a scenario, the rapier is still better or equal, depending on if you're using a salve/slayer or not. but it doesn't make a huge difference.

Since, DPS more or less scales linearly with attack once you fall below 50% accuracy. As does strength, at high max hit.

 

It also happens, that at 50% or lower accuracy, DPS also scales roughly linearly with the target's maximum defense roll.

So if the target's stab defense is equal to its slash. Rapier on stab equals the CLS on slash.

If the target's stab defense is 5% higher than its slash, then CLS is 5% better than rapier on stab

If the target's stab defense is 9% higher than its slash, then CLS is 9% better dps rapier on stab

if target's stab defense is 10% higher than its slash, then youve reached the critical point and you're better off using the rapier on slash. (~9% is the critical point)

 

Afterwards, regardless of how much higher the target's stab defense is than its slash, the CLS is 9% better than a rapier on slash.

 

But you have to realize, the opposite is true and unbounded.

If the target is 5% weaker to stab than slash, then the rapier is 5% better than the cls.

and the critical point is 8%, before the CLS user should switch over to stab.

 

but that's just some info for you to consider.

 

but I think you're really misguided to use observational standpoints to judge the effectiveness of a weapon.

Qeltar claimed to have shown that a warrior ring was better than a berserker ring in many locations.

Where as if you look dice roll DPS systems, a 5% accuracy boost NEVER results in 5% higher dps than a berserker ring.

 

People play differently when they like/dislike the item they're using.

Objectively, I can't see many places where the CLS would be substantially better.

Definitely not enough places to justify getting a CLS just for those location.

 

 

Very good, valid points. Point taken.

 

However, about observations, the fact that so many, as opposed to just a handful, of people can argue that CLS > CR and the fact that so many people can argue CR > CLS based on their personal experience proves, at least to me, that there is no real significant difference between the two (again, training excluded).

[Elf Spice]

Anyone have an idea of DPS of maul vs SS against waterfiends?

 

Not sure but maul can hit 700+ on task.

 

I'm starting to have seconds thoughts on getting the maul, since the SS is 50% faster. In general, I prize speed over accuracy and strength, so I'm wondering if anyone has done any conclusive testing comparing the 2 weapons there?