Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Golvellius]

Come rapier fan-boys, you're slacking here and this thread was about to make it to page 2.

Don't worry though you left me some gems of insight on the last page that makes me want to comment.

 

I think grimy said that as long as a monster has infinite slash and stab defense, rapier beats longsword with max accuracy/str gear.

Oh no doubt in my mind that he could say something like that. :lol:

I mean afterall when a monster has infinite slash and stab defense then you'll never hit with either a longsword or a rapier.

So having the zeros flash up sooner with the rapier is a definite advantage.

 

I may be wrong, but as i understand it a new dwarf quest and hopefully the dragon defender is coming out early 2011ish, and with an even bigger boost to accuracy wouldent this make the rapier more superior to cls @ solo bandos?

You can use a defender with CLS.

Advantage is mute.

 

Heretical idea? Definitely, since CLS must be used with shield is biblical law.

So sayeth the tabulated data sheets which basis can not be questioned.

I won't mention that CLS has a stab attack, I promise. :-#

[stonewall337]

Come rapier fan-boys, you're slacking here and this thread was about to make it to page 2.

Don't worry though you left me some gems of insight on the last page that makes me want to comment.

 

I think grimy said that as long as a monster has infinite slash and stab defense, rapier beats longsword with max accuracy/str gear.

Oh no doubt in my mind that he could say something like that. :lol:

I mean afterall when a monster has infinite slash and stab defense then you'll never hit with either a longsword or a rapier.

So having the zeros flash up sooner with the rapier is a definite advantage.

 

I may be wrong, but as i understand it a new dwarf quest and hopefully the dragon defender is coming out early 2011ish, and with an even bigger boost to accuracy wouldent this make the rapier more superior to cls @ solo bandos?

You can use a defender with CLS.

Advantage is mute.

 

Heretical idea? Definitely, since CLS must be used with shield is biblical law.

So sayeth the tabulated data sheets which basis can not be questioned.

I won't mention that CLS has a stab attack, I promise. :-#

 

The advantage to CLS of defender is roughly 25% less then to CR, since CLS is 25% slower, and the +5 str and ~+18 slash/stab isn't 25% more effective on CLS.

 

EG, defender makes you hit the same amount higher over not using (Around 27 LP) to both CLS and CR.

 

It also adds the same amount of accuracy to CR as to CLS.

 

However, CLS is slower. So defender increases in value to CR roughly 25% more then it aids CLS.

 

Same holds true for things like berserker ring. It will increase max hit roughly the same to both a GS and a whip, but will increase the DPS of a whip far more then GS. The only instance this wouldn't be true is if the increased accuracy were needed of a slower weapons. However, this is so rarely seen in RS (The only exception I can think of is perhaps zil, but there you'd want Verac>GS>whip) that as a general rule, bonuses help faster weapons at higher levels, then they do slower weapons.

 

And CLS has stab, but its only 10% more then CR for being 25% slower.

 

Simple solution, get both. Assuming optimal gear, for pure DPS, defender+CR>defender+cls, but shield+cr<shield+CLS on monsters like graador, where a shield is often needed or used.

[crashNburn]

I may be wrong, but as i understand it a new dwarf quest and hopefully the dragon defender is coming out early 2011ish, and with an even bigger boost to accuracy wouldent this make the rapier more superior to cls @ solo bandos?

You can use a defender with CLS.

Advantage is mute.

 

Heretical idea? Definitely, since CLS must be used with shield is biblical law.

So sayeth the tabulated data sheets which basis can not be questioned.

I won't mention that CLS has a stab attack, I promise. :-#

Rapier is faster and therefore benefits more from the bonuses of a defender. It scales better than a CLS.

 

It's also worth mentioning that while attack bonuses keep increasing, boss defense remains the same, and rapier will keep gaining an edge on the current content in the game.

 

I think that's what he was trying to get at. Not that you couldn't use a defender with a CLS.

[PereGrin]

I think that Divine will still be preferable at many bosses. It is hard to compete with the staying power you have when you are blocking 30% damage.

 

But Dragon defender will increase rapier power insanely when not using a shield. I can't wait for it, I will get it as soon as i possibly can after the release.

[sumondskull6]

I think that Divine will still be preferable at many bosses. It is hard to compete with the staying power you have when you are blocking 30% damage.

 

But Dragon defender will increase rapier power insanely when not using a shield. I can't wait for it, I will get it as soon as i possibly can after the release.

 

All this talk of the Dragon defender, yet, no where has Jagex said anything about it. It's pure myth, to my knowledge.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I think that Divine will still be preferable at many bosses. It is hard to compete with the staying power you have when you are blocking 30% damage.

 

But Dragon defender will increase rapier power insanely when not using a shield. I can't wait for it, I will get it as soon as i possibly can after the release.

 

All this talk of the Dragon defender, yet, no where has Jagex said anything about it. It's pure myth, to my knowledge.

jagex has stated that the dragon defender is coming out soon

 

[PereGrin]

EDIT: Yeah grimy got it before me^

[xpx]

Come rapier fan-boys, you're slacking here and this thread was about to make it to page 2.

Don't worry though you left me some gems of insight on the last page that makes me want to comment.

 

I think grimy said that as long as a monster has infinite slash and stab defense, rapier beats longsword with max accuracy/str gear.

Oh no doubt in my mind that he could say something like that. :lol:

I mean afterall when a monster has infinite slash and stab defense then you'll never hit with either a longsword or a rapier.

So having the zeros flash up sooner with the rapier is a definite advantage.

 

I may be wrong, but as i understand it a new dwarf quest and hopefully the dragon defender is coming out early 2011ish, and with an even bigger boost to accuracy wouldent this make the rapier more superior to cls @ solo bandos?

You can use a defender with CLS.

Advantage is mute.

 

Heretical idea? Definitely, since CLS must be used with shield is biblical law.

So sayeth the tabulated data sheets which basis can not be questioned.

I won't mention that CLS has a stab attack, I promise. :-#

Why do you pretend to be smart when you aren't?

 

Infinite defense, unless it really is infinite(which is not what grimy considered), does not mean you are not able to deal damage, just as it's possible to miss on a chicken with chaotic maul(~infinite attack vs. ~no defense). Against any numerical amount of defense, assuming that the stab/slash defense is equal, rapier will ALWAYS be better, and if you can't understand the maths behind it, don't make bold statements.

 

I'm quite surprised to find you lacking in the logic department, too. I thought it was painfully obvious that all bonuses affect the faster weapon more than the slower one, but i guess i must have been wrong. That comment was incredibly stupid.

 

Yes, the CLS has a stab attack, so what? Have you looked at the accuracy? 17 less than slash? Yeah, real useful. Using the CLS with a shield might not be a biblical law, but considering that the rapier is always better in a situation where you can use rune defender, it's next to useless to consider CLS without a shield.

[Assume Nothing]

Come rapier fan-boys, you're slacking here and this thread was about to make it to page 2.

Don't worry though you left me some gems of insight on the last page that makes me want to comment.

 

I think grimy said that as long as a monster has infinite slash and stab defense, rapier beats longsword with max accuracy/str gear.

Oh no doubt in my mind that he could say something like that. :lol:

I mean afterall when a monster has infinite slash and stab defense then you'll never hit with either a longsword or a rapier.

So having the zeros flash up sooner with the rapier is a definite advantage.

 

I may be wrong, but as i understand it a new dwarf quest and hopefully the dragon defender is coming out early 2011ish, and with an even bigger boost to accuracy wouldent this make the rapier more superior to cls @ solo bandos?

You can use a defender with CLS.

Advantage is mute.

 

Heretical idea? Definitely, since CLS must be used with shield is biblical law.

So sayeth the tabulated data sheets which basis can not be questioned.

I won't mention that CLS has a stab attack, I promise. :-#

Why do you pretend to be smart when you aren't?

 

Infinite defense, unless it really is infinite(which is not what grimy considered), does not mean you are not able to deal damage, just as it's possible to miss on a chicken with chaotic maul(~infinite attack vs. ~no defense). Against any numerical amount of defense, assuming that the stab/slash defense is equal, rapier will ALWAYS be better, and if you can't understand the maths behind it, don't make bold statements.

 

I'm quite surprised to find you lacking in the logic department, too. I thought it was painfully obvious that all bonuses affect the faster weapon more than the slower one, but i guess i must have been wrong. That comment was incredibly stupid.

 

Yes, the CLS has a stab attack, so what? Have you looked at the accuracy? 17 less than slash? Yeah, real useful. Using the CLS with a shield might not be a biblical law, but considering that the rapier is always better in a situation where you can use rune defender, it's next to useless to consider CLS without a shield.

 

I'm waiting for the Golvellius reply to this.

 

As stated many times here, it's not worth buying a chaotic weapon for only one purpose.

 

 

Get Rapier. Honestly, it's not worth buying your first weapon for one particular use. I learned from my mistake with CLS L

 

My quote of the day

[gremmy]

What's up Dzi?

[Golvellius]

I'm waiting for the Golvellius reply to this.

 

As stated many times here, it's not worth buying a chaotic weapon for only one purpose.

I only buy chaotic weapons for one purpose.

Kill something.

You right, you shouldn't get one if you thought you were going to be able fish with it too.

Maybe the rapier does that idk... put some feathers on the end, dip it in the water, and out comes some trout.

[Bladewing]

well, you don't kill bosses, right? cause that's only for nolifer nerd 12 year old efficiency freaks.

 

so maybe rapier would be a better choice if you do slayer only

[Zaaps1]

I'm waiting for the Golvellius reply to this.

 

As stated many times here, it's not worth buying a chaotic weapon for only one purpose.

I only buy chaotic weapons for one purpose.

Kill something.

You right, you shouldn't get one if you thought you were going to be able fish with it too.

Maybe the rapier does that idk... put some feathers on the end, dip it in the water, and out comes some trout.

 

Hey! I got salmon when I did that!

[Jbark]

I'm closing in on 200k tokens, and I'm trying to decide whether I want to buy the CLS or the CR. I've been leaning toward the CLS, but I've seen so much information about the CR being better statistically. Here's my situation:

I'm 95 att, 99 str, 85 def, 95 hp, 79 summ, and 77 pray. I have extremes, and I'm working towards 95 prayer for Turmoil, but I would say it's still a long way away. I'm also 87 slayer.

 

When I play, I am usually either slaying, or boss hunting. Since I am trying to save at least some money, I will most likely still use whip for the easier slayer tasks, such as hellhounds, greater demons, etc., because I don't want to have to be constantly spending money to recharge my Chaotic weapon.

I usually only PvM at Bandos or TDs (I assume that CLS would be a better PvM weapon for me, since I am not yet maxed attack, and because I don't have Ovl/Turmoil). I don't do PvP at all. Right now I have an AGS for PvM and a whip for slayer; whichever Chaotic weapon I decide on, I will sell AGS and get Dragon Claws for PvM specials.

 

I have two main conflicts: First, I think the CLS is better asthetically. I know alot of people think I'm stupid or "inefficient" for considering looks, but I play the game for fun, and if I'm not having fun, I wont play as much, and therefore, will be less efficient. Secondly, for me, larger hits are more fun, and more appealing, so that also makes me lean toward the CLS (Please don't suggest CM; It isn't versatile enough for me, and I would like to keep the shield spot free).

 

 

 

I'll have to consider all the facts and weigh how much these qualities mean to me, but I'd also like to have some more actual data about performance. So here's what I would like to know:

 

How much faster could you complete a Steel Dragon task with CR compared to CLS?

With CLS compared to Whip + Def?

With CLS compared to Zs?

 

How much faster could you complete a slayer task against a lower defence monster (Abby demons for instance) with CR compared to CLS

With CLS compared to Whip + Def?

 

 

Also, just tell me which weapon you think I should choose. I will have to personally decide whether or not the better stats of the CR justify choosing it over the reasons I like the CLS. Either way, I know I'll be getting a better weapon than my AGS or Whip.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I'll have to consider all the facts and weigh how much these qualities mean to me, but I'd also like to have some more actual data about performance. So here's what I would like to know:

 

How much faster could you complete a Steel Dragon task with CR compared to CLS?

With CLS compared to Whip + Def?

With CLS compared to Zs?

 

How much faster could you complete a slayer task against a lower defence monster (Abby demons for instance) with CR compared to CLS

With CLS compared to Whip + Def?

 

 

Also, just tell me which weapon you think I should choose. I will have to personally decide whether or not the better stats of the CR justify choosing it over the reasons I like the CLS. Either way, I know I'll be getting a better weapon than my AGS or Whip.

CLS can be anywhere from marginally worse than a whip + defender on monsters with no defense, such as living rocks, to roughly 1.2x faster if you're missing 50%+ of the time even with the CLS

CLS is pretty good compared to the ZS, perhaps always better, not 100% sure.

 

abby demons are not a low defense monster, they're one of the higher defense monsters out there.

But the chaotic rapier would kill the fastest, followed by CLS, followed by whip.

 

rapier can never be less than ~1.10x faster than a whip if you're using the right combat style.

CLS can however, be ~0.98x as fast as a whip, if the monster's defense is very low.

[xpx]

Jbark,

 

firstly, as you don't have overloads(from what i read) you shouldn't solo bandos anyway, but CLS will be slightly better for that. For TD's, rapier and longsword are about the same, which is better more or less depends on preference and other things(ranged equipment and summon).

 

As for slayer, CLS really isn't a slayer weapon(the cost isn't justified compared to whip), only being good for wyverns. Rapier is generally around 15% better than whip or CLS and slightly more better than spear.

[green9090]

I'll have to consider all the facts and weigh how much these qualities mean to me, but I'd also like to have some more actual data about performance. So here's what I would like to know:

 

How much faster could you complete a Steel Dragon task with CR compared to CLS?

With CLS compared to Whip + Def?

With CLS compared to Zs?

 

How much faster could you complete a slayer task against a lower defence monster (Abby demons for instance) with CR compared to CLS

With CLS compared to Whip + Def?

 

 

Also, just tell me which weapon you think I should choose. I will have to personally decide whether or not the better stats of the CR justify choosing it over the reasons I like the CLS. Either way, I know I'll be getting a better weapon than my AGS or Whip.

CLS can be anywhere from marginally worse than a whip + defender on monsters with no defense, such as living rocks, to roughly 1.2x faster if you're missing 50%+ of the time even with the CLS

CLS is pretty good compared to the ZS, perhaps always better, not 100% sure.

 

abby demons are not a low defense monster, they're one of the higher defense monsters out there.

But the chaotic rapier would kill the fastest, followed by CLS, followed by whip.

 

rapier can never be less than ~1.10x faster than a whip if you're using the right combat style.

CLS can however, be ~0.98x as fast as a whip, if the monster's defense is very low.

THIS. If you get a CLS, you're NOT slaying with it (well, I mean, you COULD, but it'd be a gigantic waste).

 

I also wouldn't worry about using the CR for very easy tasks due to the money- try it out a couple times first and watch just how cheap it is. I can typically get through something like hellhounds with CR and pay 40k for the recharge. 40k for finishing the task that much faster? You could pay the difference out of extra runes bought with the better rate of slayer points per hour. It's so cheap I never put down my CR for anything; I just have to rarely go to Daemonheim and pay the dude ~500k, big deal.

[Obtaurian]

I would consider using a whip over a CR at dags and spectres, but nothing else. /two cents

[Squisher_33]

I would consider using a whip over a CR at dags and spectres, but nothing else. /two cents

 

i do that, i also use whip at vleds but thats just me

[Quyneax]

Indeed, the recharge cost comes in at 60k/hr. If you can't miss that, you can't afford to piety either. If you can't afford that, you're not making money (well not the amount expected from solo bandos).

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Indeed, the recharge cost comes in at 60k/hr. If you can't miss that, you can't afford to piety either. If you can't afford that, you're not making money (well not the amount expected from solo bandos).

I've collected slightly more data on the matter, and a chaotic crossbow at frost dragons (after the multiple dragons attacking you at once patch) degrades at about 75k gp/hour

 

I said 60k/hr earlier, but my data pool wasnt quite as large as it is now.

 

the degrading system works a little different from barrows for example

It doesn't degrade instantly when you enter combat. Perhaps it is degrading in secret, like a crystal bow, before dropping another %

The exact mechanics aren't know. The degrading rate might actually not be a steady rate.

[stonewall337]

Indeed, the recharge cost comes in at 60k/hr. If you can't miss that, you can't afford to piety either. If you can't afford that, you're not making money (well not the amount expected from solo bandos).

I've collected slightly more data on the matter, and a chaotic crossbow at frost dragons (after the multiple dragons attacking you at once patch) degrades at about 75k gp/hour

 

I said 60k/hr earlier, but my data pool wasnt quite as large as it is now.

 

the degrading system works a little different from barrows for example

It doesn't degrade instantly when you enter combat. Perhaps it is degrading in secret, like a crystal bow, before dropping another %

The exact mechanics aren't know. The degrading rate might actually not be a steady rate.

 

I'm curious if it is anything like PvP weapons, where wielding and using even 1 attack = 1 minute.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I'm curious if it is anything like PvP weapons, where wielding and using even 1 attack = 1 minute.

nah, for example: If you fight for a few second with a chaotic weapon. There is a chance your weapon will still be at 100% even after the fighting is over.

I believe chaotic weapons immediately start degrading the moment you enter combat.

 

There are a few possibilities. There could be an invisible timer that is not correlated to the status on your weapon (like crystal bow/shield) and after a set amount of events, the item degrades a notch.

Or it could be like a farming timer, and every few minutes, the game checks to see if you're using a chaotic weapon in combat. If you are then it degrades it 1%.

The latter seems unlikely, since chaotic weapons degrade 3-4% per hour. That would be 1 check every 15-20 minutes. Which is kinda ridiculous.

 

honestly can't say for sure how exactly they degrade til jagex leaks.

[green9090]

Indeed, the recharge cost comes in at 60k/hr. If you can't miss that, you can't afford to piety either. If you can't afford that, you're not making money (well not the amount expected from solo bandos).

I've collected slightly more data on the matter, and a chaotic crossbow at frost dragons (after the multiple dragons attacking you at once patch) degrades at about 75k gp/hour

 

I said 60k/hr earlier, but my data pool wasnt quite as large as it is now.

 

the degrading system works a little different from barrows for example

It doesn't degrade instantly when you enter combat. Perhaps it is degrading in secret, like a crystal bow, before dropping another %

The exact mechanics aren't know. The degrading rate might actually not be a steady rate.

 

I'm curious if it is anything like PvP weapons, where wielding and using even 1 attack = 1 minute.

Whatever it is, it definitely is not that. Casual combat (kill and wait) degrades it a lot slower than constant combat (like frost dragons), and both degrade it MUCH slower than the stated 200k per hour.

[stonewall337]

I'm curious if it is anything like PvP weapons, where wielding and using even 1 attack = 1 minute.

nah, for example: If you fight for a few second with a chaotic weapon. There is a chance your weapon will still be at 100% even after the fighting is over.

I believe chaotic weapons immediately start degrading the moment you enter combat.

 

There are a few possibilities. There could be an invisible timer that is not correlated to the status on your weapon (like crystal bow/shield) and after a set amount of events, the item degrades a notch.

Or it could be like a farming timer, and every few minutes, the game checks to see if you're using a chaotic weapon in combat. If you are then it degrades it 1%.

The latter seems unlikely, since chaotic weapons degrade 3-4% per hour. That would be 1 check every 15-20 minutes. Which is kinda ridiculous.

 

honestly can't say for sure how exactly they degrade til jagex leaks.

 

Except the % marker isn't the ONLY timer, perhaps. EG, it could be divided each percent into 100 units.

 

I WASn't talking about 1 wield=1%.