An Intelligent Perspective On Botters

[Soupy17]

If you are woodcutting or fishing for money, you are doing it wrong. Neither has ever been an even halfway decent way to make money. Hell, even hunting chins to 99 hunter only makes what, 30? That is 2-3 DKS trips.

 

Raw materials being higher would result in buyable skills costing even MORE. More people would be spending money on herb/pray etc.

 

Personally, I don't see bots as a major problem.

 

Exactly, youve stated how inefficient skilling is for money.

 

Isnt this an indication that skilling needs to be improved somewhat?

 

No. MH should be FAR more profitable for numerous reasons:

 

1.) Time spent getting high enough skills to MH efficiently.

 

2.) Money spent on gear to MH well.

 

3.) Money spent on skills such as prayer/herb to MH well.

 

4.) Risk. There is always risk. I've been at GWD where the whole world lagged out, and everyone in the boss room died before.

 

5.) Input. I don't know any boss which is easier to AFK then fishing/mining/wcing.

 

6.) Time. Most bosses take preparation time, and time commitment then any skilling money maker, unless perhaps herb runs. However, herb runs are profitable already, and aren't a part of this discussion.

 

7.) Cost. Even though there are averages, dry streaks still occur, and one needs cash to cover supplies.

 

There are more, but I think I made my point.

 

Also, if you skill, why do you need as much money? Most gear is for killing things anyways, and unless you are looking at aesthetic items such as party hats and certain TT items, you shouldn't need as much cash.

 

And I make ~4.5m gp/hr at DKS. Why shouldn't I? I spent hundred of hours, and over 1b on my gear and stats. If you want to make that kind of money, train up. Hell, I've trained attack more then DOUBLE the amount you've trained ALL your skills. And yet you tell me I shouldn't make good cash?

 

If I have a better education then you IRL man, I'm probably going to be making far more then you.

This is why nobody likes you

[Bladewing]

This is why nobody likes you

I, if no one else, like reading stonewall's posts. You're just butthurt because he called you out and proved you wrong.

[Sir_Kurity]

If theres 1000's of bots there is a substantially larger supply making it easier for legit players to get levels.

 

I wasent aware that people who do gathering skills arent "legit" players.

 

Theres a large supply of legit players but with an increase of bots it adds to the supply already brught in by legit players.

 

Nowhere did i say people who wc, mine,fish or hunt arent legit.

 

Yes, but you said its EASIER for legit players.

 

Legit players also include those who WC, mine, or fish, and they find it substantially harder to get skills and money because of bots.

 

Those that train buyable skills, sure, they have an easier time, but those of us who prefer skilling get the [cabbage] end of the stick.

 

Even monster hunters to a certain extent get screwed by bots.

 

Because I am thinking either you were trolling or you lack basic logic.

 

What, calling you out on a huge assumption means im a troll? I wasent aware of this rule.

 

Please, enlighten me.

[Obtaurian]

This is why nobody likes you

I, if no one else, like reading stonewall's posts. You're just butthurt because he called you out and proved you wrong.

 

Agreed. :thumbup:

[strilmus]

Hm.

 

At the end of the day, if it's acceptable for people to just have something do the playing for them, then at that point we have to start questioning the point of actually having that feature, or having to allow all forms of technology based game automation to the point where most of the strategy to the game is located outside of the actual game.

 

Regardless of how much money anybody is making doing anything, or how easy or hard something is, if you think that you're more important than somebody else because you consider your skills more useful and less stupid, when you're eventually rendered obsolete by similar means or an entirely different method comes up, like perhaps epic skilling with actual skill and risk or say, artificial price inflation, you will just have to accept it and not say anything at all like how your effort means more than theirs because your way was better (because your effort to make more money in a shorter amount of time was apparently tougher than somebody who has to spend more time than you to make an equivalent amount of money.....'the hard way' ha, as if, hunting monsters is much harder), and then they come back and say that since they're doing it smarter, they deserve it more. I can just imagine it now....

 

"I mean, it's stupid to play your way when we have things that can do it much easier and faster even though it's not through ingame means, right? Why monster hunt when it takes much more intelligence to set up organizations and manage the collective sheeplike intelligence of the poor, which is totally different from taking advantage of bots to fuel your monster hunting by driving down prices?"

 

Or perhaps they'll figure out how to throw a bunch of trained bots at bosses to tank hits and rake in all the loot for themselves (you can do a lot with disposable attack dummies in a multicombat area), using barrows armor that they also used bots to automatically harvest, which drove down the price of barrows to the point where they had to start getting more creative. Hell, they can just use a ton of cheap rangers instead if they want to, raising funds by spamming all of your favorite slayer spots with more attack bots to collect drops. Sounds like a stretch now but when it happens you'll have to get an umbrella to shield yourself from the baaaaws.

 

My blatant point is that if it ever happened to you, you would totally complain about it.

[Glove]

I'm not buying that it's helpful or useful for bots to gather items for production skills because legitimate players ought to focus on other more 'efficient' methods of leveling and making money.

 

Efficiency is actually more subjective than you think because the way a person weighs efficiency is based on their desired goals and outcomes. For example, I had to read The Last of the Mohicans by James Fenimoore Cooper for a class; it is one of the worst books I have ever had the displeasure of reading. It as difficult to get through, but it had to be done. I got through it by accomplishing other goals on Runescape while I forced myself to read it. At the time I had a goal of raising my woodcutting level to 90 and amassing the gold I needed to reach level 90 prayer, so I cut yew logs; this allowed to read the book, work on my woodcutting and net a little profit towards my prayer goal all at the same time. For any one of those tasks taken in isolation, the route I chose was not the most efficient if you look at raw pages read per hour, experience gained per hour or gp gained per hour. But the goals didn't exist in isolation, it was an effective compromise of time and effort with rewards gained and goals worked towards. It was efficient for me in that situation.

 

That's why I don't buy what you're selling. It's easy to spout raw data at people and declare one method better than another; but context is still important.

 

Botters don't just hurt stupid skillers, they degrade things that were once viable options and conceivable compromises for legitimate players. There may be a short term benefit for some players in terms of driving some resources needed for production skills down in price, but botting has a larger negative effect on the community as a whole in that it limits players options as to how they can play the game with a sense of accomplishment and achievement.

[yuriqiu]

Hm.

 

At the end of the day, if it's acceptable for people to just have something do the playing for them, then at that point we have to start questioning the point of actually having that feature, or having to allow all forms of technology based game automation to the point where most of the strategy to the game is located outside of the actual game.

 

Regardless of how much money anybody is making doing anything, or how easy or hard something is, if you think that you're more important than somebody else because you consider your skills more useful and less stupid, when you're eventually rendered obsolete by similar means or an entirely different method comes up, like perhaps epic skilling with actual skill and risk or say, artificial price inflation, you will just have to accept it and not say anything at all like how your effort means more than theirs because your way was better (because your effort to make more money in a shorter amount of time was apparently tougher than somebody who has to spend more time than you to make an equivalent amount of money.....'the hard way' ha, as if, hunting monsters is much harder), and then they come back and say that since they're doing it smarter, they deserve it more. I can just imagine it now....

 

"I mean, it's stupid to play your way when we have things that can do it much easier and faster even though it's not through ingame means, right? Why monster hunt when it takes much more intelligence to set up organizations and manage the collective sheeplike intelligence of the poor, which is totally different from taking advantage of bots to fuel your monster hunting by driving down prices?"

 

Or perhaps they'll figure out how to throw a bunch of trained bots at bosses to tank hits and rake in all the loot for themselves (you can do a lot with disposable attack dummies in a multicombat area), using barrows armor that they also used bots to automatically harvest, which drove down the price of barrows to the point where they had to start getting more creative. Hell, they can just use a ton of cheap rangers instead if they want to, raising funds by spamming all of your favorite slayer spots with more attack bots to collect drops. Sounds like a stretch now but when it happens you'll have to get an umbrella to shield yourself from the baaaaws.

 

My blatant point is that if it ever happened to you, you would totally complain about it.

Botters are slow reacting dummies programmed to do the same motion over and over again, I can see a slayer bot coming out but I'd like to see a Corp or gwd killing bot arrive and not get crashed by a good team. So if a boss hunting bot does come out, thanks for making my kills faster and giving me more loot.

 

Anyways, my point above is, if you dont want to be affected by bots, do something that takes more skill/reflex/intelligence than something a robot can do. Idc if its solo merch, rune pk, hybrid pk, clan pk, boss hunt, rune mining, greenwall hunting or what ever. If you don't want to be affected by bots, don't do the same repetitive activity that a bot is doing.

 

P.S. I also like Stonewall's posts. Morning and blade are also two of the most intelligent posters on these boards.

[Sir_Kurity]

Woodcutting,hunting, and fishing for profit is stupid

 

Thats not the point, irregardless of it being stupid or not (Its not, AFK skills are great), it is still a legitimate way of making money, and bots harm players who train via these skills.

 

And by my knowledge, bots have also spread to things like monster hunting, most notably green dragons. Green dragons have always been a legitimate, relatively high profit, mid level money making monster.

 

I wont say its some huge difference, i dont really notice that many bots, but it DOES make a difference. And the most important part of this is how easily jagex could fix (or at least reduce), the number of bots. Simply by reinstating permanent bans.

 

Ive personally forgotten what im even arguing about anymore, so...

 

TL;DR, bots are bad.

 

 

Nope calling me out on a huge assumption (which should be shown that wasnt the case by previous posts where i talk about legit players who do collect raw resources) and making a big assumption yourself on purpose would be trolling.

 

Didnt read/remember your previous posts.

 

And what assumption did i make?

[Glove]

 

When I say that, I take into account that they those methods will never be the most efficient or the fastest, whether bots are making it worse or not.

 

I understand how you feel, Im in college, I have tons of work to do all the time. I have spent a lot of time shark fishing, yew cutting, coal mining (did it to 77 instead of granite) myself. In context of its convenient semi-afkable way to earn xp and money makes it good if you find yourself to be busy.

 

But when im using these methods im not shouting to myself Darn you bots! ive accepted that they will always be part of the picture, no matter how small or large they're there. Yes there is a negative affect to their presence, theres no debating that its there. However is there any gain from them? I guess thats the point that ive been trying to prove, that there indeed is a gain. Casuals like you or me not so much, but a Zarfot, bots producing mass amounts of resources are central to such accomplishments.

 

Also ive been saying that if bots suddenly disappeared today most of these money making methods wont rise much more. Playing these methods is accepting convenience at the price of efficiency, which really depends on the individuals play style on whether its worth it or not.

 

But the gain is artificial. It's artificial because the economy for one material doesn't exist in a vacuum. Any money saved on one resource gets funneled into something else, raising the cost of more desirable items (i.e. dragon bones continue to rise in price because players have more disposable income, part of this disposable income comes from the price of fish and ore being driven down by bots). Unless you never level highly desired skills that require materials from gathering skills, you are affected by bots.

 

As for the mass amounts of resources needed to fuel the player base, if there's a demand someone will fill it. I wouldn't worry about where the fish and logs and ore will come from to fuel hardcore players if bots get a severe blow in the future. And what about places like green dragons where legitimate players are continuously crowded out by bots? You can't argue that if there were few bots the supply of dragon bones would go down. You know those spaces would fill up in an instant with legitimate players.

 

This is a zero sum game. Any tangible 'benefit' comes with an equal negative and we end up back at zero; except that there is less flexibility in play style, which hurts the diversity of the community.

 

Also, I'll say this again: efficiency is subjective based on the goals and desired outcomes of the person evaluating whether or not a way of doing something is efficient. Believe it or not, sometimes convenience is absolutely a factor in efficiency; in fact, that's the whole principle convenience stores work on to turn a tidy profit. You're willing to pay more for the same candy bar at a convenience store than you would pay if you went to the grocery store because the convenience store is closer or on your way or just there when you have a sudden craving; it's a less efficient use of money, but a more efficient use of time. You have to decide which aspect is more important to you and you use that to base your analysis of efficiency on. So you can harp about there being more efficient ways to do something and you would be right, but you'd also be assuming you know which lens another person is viewing efficiency out of; can you see how that would lead to trouble? My example above was just one from my own personal experience, there are any number of reasons why people choose to do certain activities a certain way in Runescape. Just because we don't see the value in them doesn't mean we should feel good about potential benefits we gain from the erosion of their way of doing things by other people breaking the rules.

 

I don't think either of us can actually predict what would happen to the price of goods if botters were erased from the face of Runescape; aside from that the short term lowering of supply would increase the demand (and thus the general price) of some items, which would most likely make them more attractive to collect to some segments of the player base (which would increase the supply and stabilize the demand and price). Beyond that, we have guesses. More importantly though, is what the threshold for making a item attractive to collect is (and for what portion of the player base?) because that's what really determines practical application of theory from intellectual speculation in this regard; it's the actual marker for what the overall harm caused by bots is. If the threshold is low, then that small increase you dismiss is important; if the threshold is higher then I'm getting in a tizzy over what is potentially a very small deal.

 

The main point though is that if you level all skills (or most skills), it's likely any 'savings' you can chalk up to bots are negated to inflation of prices in other areas (which can also be linked back to bots).

[Golvellius]

No such thing as an intelligent perspective on why we need botters.

Its like saying I need cheaters so I can feel that my accomplishments mean something since I did it the hard way.

[Johannas]

I don't hate on botters just because they're unfair on other players, they take the enjoyment away from the game, they cause prices to plummet, they crowd training spots and they encorage further botting.

 

Ok, maybe i do.

[Youmu]

I see, everyone either thinks bots aren't a serious problem or say that they are beneficial, just for a sole reason: driving the prices of raw materials down.

 

Well, think about it.

 

Imagine that suddenly, the prices of ALL raw materials (logs, ores, bones, essence, seeds, etc.) were cut down by half.

The first and immediate effect that this has on players are that the gathering skills (wc, fish, mine, etc.) will be absolutely screwed for making cash. This is often the only effect that players tend to notice.

 

However, the second effect (which is far more significant) is that people will start buying out raw materials, and massively grind the production skills (smith, rc, farm, summon ,etc.) because of the raw material drop. However, because so many people want to train those skills, eventually the prices of the produced materials will start plunging in price. And because so many people bought out all those raw products, the prices of the raw products will begin rising again, to the point where it becomes unprofitable.

 

Although stuff with high requirements will remain unaffected (runite, double nats, farming), this just makes it worse for all of the other "easy" skills.

 

All bots do are making this cycle a never ending process.

 

This is essentially why skills like Cooking/Fletching/Smithing/Crafting are very unprofitable at the moment.

 

So next time, think twice before you think it's really a benefit.

 

(Besides, botting is basically cheating. :rolleyes: )

[Lacoste]

only a matter of time before bots MH, so i guess we wait and see what they say when it happens to them...

[Johannas]

Having an intelligent perspective on botting is like having an intelligent perspective on terrorism.

 

Puts an ease on global population strain? Oh no, wait China are practically farting them out.

[FooK-A-Ji]

Having an intelligent perspective on botting is like having an intelligent perspective on terrorism.

 

Puts an ease on global population strain? Oh no, wait China are practically farting them out.

You mean India right? You're only allowed one child in most areas of China so your opinion is rather outdated.

[Johannas]

Having an intelligent perspective on botting is like having an intelligent perspective on terrorism.Puts an ease on global population strain? Oh no, wait China are practically farting them out.

You mean India right? You're only allowed one child in most areas of China so your opinion is rather outdated.

 

China and India are both expanding rapidly, you are right about India though - would've been a better example. I studied BRICs extensively along with the China one child policy, interesting stuff.

[Vulxai]

This is why nobody likes you

I, if no one else, like reading stonewall's posts. You're just butthurt because he called you out and proved you wrong.

 

I rather enjoy his posts, too. I usually learn something (as I'm not the number one player by ANY means), and they're usually filled with content, unlike the post you quoted.

 

ahhh...here we go again. Another blunt statement assuming everyone is lvl 130 something like you are. I am lvl 71. I keep a constant 3-4 mil by skilling, i.e. fishing while growing herbs, etc. I disagree with the graph, and i want the raw material prices to be higher, because then i would make more money, and then boss hunters like you wouldn't be making about 1000 gp per SECOND.

 

The math:

 

Let's say you make 2 mil in half an hour. 30x60 is 1800 seconds. 2,000,000/1800=1111.11 (repeating). That is about 1000 gp a second. And that is ridiculous. No one should make that much money.

 

EDIT: Actually you would make the same, just with more initial investment.

 

 

 

LMFAO. SHUT THE [bleep] UP NOOB.

 

Rather unnecessary.

 

To the quote above that: Why not? They've put in more time than you, they've invested more money than you, and they're risking more than you. I can guarantee once you're that high, you'll wish it was higher for as much work as you've put in. You have to work for the rewards, that's why they get them.

[strilmus]

More time? I think people monster hunting use time at the same rate as skillers. I don't know how they could use time faster.

 

More money? Where did they get that money from? Monster hunting. How can you ask a skiller to invest money that they don't have? And why is the best skilling equipment (as in the dragon axe and pick, not the clay gear) distributed through monster hunting and subjected to similar monetary levels even though skilling is not on the same level of money making?

 

Risking more? Certainly. But that's part of the "more money to start with" issue again. And if making money is so much better with monster hunting, you'd still be gaining more money even with a few sour runs every so often, which then makes this a fake risk if the odds of losing your gear is low with the use of gravestones.

 

As for saying that a well trained person could dominate a bot spammed zone for easier kills, that would ultimately still increase the amount of those drops entering the market if there's a lot of bots and a lot of people riding off of those bots, and devalue it. Better yet, there could be a player using their own bots as meat shields. Would you be able to face them down? Would people be able to know the difference between somebody exploiting somebody else's bots for kills and somebody who is using their own bots?

 

And while people are not present, the bots will be there, still fighting.

 

And while you're opposing them on one world, there will be another world where they are not being confronted, and are making good money.

 

There are many parts to this scenario that make me doubt that there is a net benefit to this.

[Tim]

The rich want to stay rich and they want the poor to stay poor as usual. The point of runescape is supposed to be choice. There are hundreds of things to do in this game, yet every time this discussion comes up, those who can make millions per hour just say something along the lines of Well I spend hours getting the levels so why shouldn't i get more money?

 

Guess what, those who skill spend hours getting levels too. Woodcutters spend hours getting their levels because they choose too. Why should they be penalised for that just because you chose a different path? You should be able to do everything in this game and make reasonable money doing so.

 

The argument of risk vs reward wasn't so bad back when the most expensive drops were below 20m, but now that you can get drops worth upwards of 60m, the difference compared to skilling is out of this world. If most items were still lost on death then I would agree more that it is risky, but it really is not.

 

 

People do not seem to realise that new players cannot hope to get wealthy to become the next generation of monster hunters. The poor cannot monster hunt due to the wealthy crashing them, and they cannot skill for money due to its hugely low gp/h compared to items needed.

 

Gp/h for skilling has remained flat for years, yet the gp/h made from monster hunting has increased tenfold. How is that fair?

 

 

 

This isn't WoW, we shouldn't force lower levels to grind their way to the highest levels to get access to the game making everything beforehand obsolete. Everything should have a role to play.

THANK YOU!!! You've summed up my frustrations for this game for three years.

 

Basically this is why I remain poor, I cant monster hunt because clans refuse to accept me for not affording the armor, and I cant skill because the prices of raws. Well they aren't THAT low but with bots getting in the way I cant gather either. I tried green dragons yesterday in CT, I saw level 130's using bots and thousands of players botting also. combat 130. It's pathetic, sad and I honestly hope they get Perm' Banned and refused appeals.

[Den]

Found a video on RS botting by silentcore which I thought would fit nice in here. Not sure how much in the video has been said on the thread, it did give me some information I didnt know from before.

 

 

Youtube HD Video - This video will cause high CPU usage, to view the video in a lower quality, please click

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[timmmmm83]

Found a video on RS botting by silentcore which I thought would fit nice in here. Not sure how much in the video has been said on the thread, it did give me some information I didnt know from before.

 

 

Youtube HD Video - This video will cause high CPU usage, to view the video in a lower quality, please click

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Interesting, seems that a lot more people use bots then we could have imagined.

 

And with the current handling of assumed botting, these numbers will only increase.

[Youmu]

Once again my point still stands.

 

When bots significantly increase the supply of raw materials, people will start buying them out which will make the produce significantly lowered.

 

The "cheapened" raw items will increase in price again, going back to where we started. It's just like a cat & mouse chase.

 

Bots mess up the economy more than you think.

[Central_Keeper]

Having an intelligent perspective on botting is like having an intelligent perspective on terrorism.

 

Puts an ease on global population strain? Oh no, wait China are practically farting them out.

You mean India right? You're only allowed one child in most areas of China so your opinion is rather outdated.

 

I am sure even with the one child policy enforced, people still having difficult time following that type of rule due to cultural upbringing and influences.

 

That point aside, I do learn a lot of things from this thread, even though I still think botting messed up the game as a whole. But seeing how everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that's usually how the world goes.

[strilmus]

BTW, experts with creepy eyebrows have said that the one child policy has already slowed the population expansion to the point where it will start declining within our lifetimes if it continues.

 

But seriously I'm kind of bored with all these boss hunting activities being introduced that I can't participate in without adhering to that lifestyle, while anybody can just jump into skilling to the point where the overall experience is devalued and then overrun by bots.