An Elitist's View on Crashing

[Sir_Kurity]

If you aren't going to bother, neither will I troacctid

 

To the last page: It does finally seem as we are getting somewhere. To stonewalls post:

 

I think we need a little bit of give and take between the sides. You shouldn't blindly let people walk all over you, but you should also go out with a mindset in which you will give people a little bit of wiggle room. for example, asking somebody how long they have left at a boss, maybe waiting 5 minutes for them to finish if possible? I don't think either side is totally right, compromise is needed.

 

For a high level maxed player, the wiggle room is in a single combat area.

[stonewall337]

If you aren't going to bother, neither will I troacctid

 

To the last page: It does finally seem as we are getting somewhere. To stonewalls post:

 

I think we need a little bit of give and take between the sides. You shouldn't blindly let people walk all over you, but you should also go out with a mindset in which you will give people a little bit of wiggle room. for example, asking somebody how long they have left at a boss, maybe waiting 5 minutes for them to finish if possible? I don't think either side is totally right, compromise is needed.

Exactly. At dag kings, I hop a few times. At Graador, I ask how long they have left. I crash after giving reasonable effort to find a free world. I'l defend my spot, but if its more efficient to hop, I'l do so.

[TheAncient]

This is actually probably one area where class-based games such as WoW have an edge over RS. Everyone's pretty much going for the same goals.

[strilmus]

The funny thing is that nobody in RS wants to be forced into team situations because they think they're better off by themselves.

 

I think this is the heart of the matter in where the unlimited free will leads towards another kind of "god wars" in a way where everybody wants to exercise their full range of abilities regardless of the consequences.

 

They want a single player game.

[Bladewing]

The funny thing is that nobody in RS wants to be forced into team situations because they think they're better off by themselves.

 

I think this is the heart of the matter in where the unlimited free will leads towards another kind of "god wars" in a way where everybody wants to exercise their full range of abilities regardless of the consequences.

 

They want a single player game.

fact: a 138 makes more money per hour soloing a boss than teaming it with another friend.

 

they are factually better off by themselves to solo a boss.

[xpx]

Well it's about striking a balance

 

And if you hold that attitude that everybody else is stupid and unimportant

 

Then what are they supposed to expect when you demand that everybody should let you do what you want

Except there is a problem- namely, having maxed levels and gear means you are uncrashable and can crash anyone else below you, thus having no reason really not to crash. And this really is an important point in the ELITIST view, for most people, there is an equilibrium, for the elite, there isn't.

 

They want a single player game.

People solo because it's better to do so, not because they want a single player game. The majority of people team in dungeoneering, y'know.

[Obtaurian]

Oh. My. God.

 

Can someone please explain how morality has ANYTHING to do with there being two people fighting over most bosses on almost every world? ONCE AGAIN, this isn't some fairytale land where the big bad 138 decides to pick on the poor wittle 110. There are REASONS that are completely mutually exclusive of morality and "social norms."

 

I'd like to set a challenge for all of you who are against crashing: For the next 30 days, you must spend every second of your playtime soloing Graardor. Buy the best gear you can afford, read up on efficient soloing methods, and have at it. I GUARANTEE you that in 30 days, you will be a convert. You will no longer have any qualms with crashing. You will be so fed up with waiting for people to leave worlds that you will resort to crashing, and you'll be crashed within a minute of you entering the boss chamber, so you will start thinking about maxing your skills and buying better gear so you can CRASH and PREVENT BEING CRASHED because there's no other way to do it.

 

I use Graardor as an example because he's easily the busiest boss. Bosses like DKs and TDs are much better for money, especially due to worlds being easier to find. Thus, people don't typically crash those two bosses.

[strilmus]

If dungeoneering didn't REQUIRE multiple people for the maximum statistical yield, you know everybody would solo it

 

It's really just about maximum statistical yield, so really if they wanted that they never would bother with the social aspect on a greater level than chatting.

 

So, single player game with a chatroom on the side.

[strilmus]

You seem to have me confused with somebody who uses morality as a weapon to do anything I want to regardless of who is harmed

 

The thing is, I find the wellbeing of everybody to be worth more than any one particular person

 

So I guess if you consider that to be not possible then perhaps you are right

 

But that would mean that you are also equally expendable in this regard

[xpx]

If dungeoneering didn't REQUIRE multiple people for the maximum statistical yield, you know everybody would solo it

 

It's really just about maximum statistical yield, so really if they wanted that they never would bother with the social aspect on a greater level than chatting.

 

So, single player game with a chatroom on the side.

Wait, i can play that game too...

 

If killing bosses in runescape required players to work together to maximize efficiency... You know this is going nowhere. What if's mean nothing. You are as wrong as anyone can ever be about the fact that people solo just because they want a single player game, and there is no real argument in it(teaming is actually much less risky and easier). Players adapt to the system, and if the system is flawd, why blame the players?

[strilmus]

If it was easier then why isn't everybody seeking to team whenever possible?

 

My argument is that even though the game is flawed, it does not make your own actions entirely unaccountable if there is a better way, and not looking for a better way is the same thing as deciding that there are no more flaws left.

[Danqazmlp]

Oh. My. God.

 

Can someone please explain how morality has ANYTHING to do with there being two people fighting over most bosses on almost every world? ONCE AGAIN, this isn't some fairytale land where the big bad 138 decides to pick on the poor wittle 110. There are REASONS that are completely mutually exclusive of morality and "social norms."

 

I'd like to set a challenge for all of you who are against crashing: For the next 30 days, you must spend every second of your playtime soloing Graardor. Buy the best gear you can afford, read up on efficient soloing methods, and have at it. I GUARANTEE you that in 30 days, you will be a convert. You will no longer have any qualms with crashing. You will be so fed up with waiting for people to leave worlds that you will resort to crashing, and you'll be crashed within a minute of you entering the boss chamber, so you will start thinking about maxing your skills and buying better gear so you can CRASH and PREVENT BEING CRASHED because there's no other way to do it.

 

I use Graardor as an example because he's easily the busiest boss. Bosses like DKs and TDs are much better for money, especially due to worlds being easier to find. Thus, people don't typically crash those two bosses.

 

 

This is an MMO, which means other people are playing. We are human beings, which some people forget just because you cannot see the other person. It is a community driven game with other people. You cannot possibly argue that morality does not come into the equation. I am not 100% against crashing, by all means do it if you have tried the other options first, waiting to see if somebody finishes and/or hopping worlds. I am however against people going to bosses with the mindset that they will crash whoever is there straight away because they can.

 

Wiggle room and compromise are the key factors. Going totally one side is ignorant on one side and stupid on the other.

[strilmus]

Okay really stop using the trolling argument on either side. It's just another excuse and it's not dignified at all.

 

If people really don't want a single player game, and they're only crashing other people because there really is no other way to do it, then we need to get a massive petition saying that we want instances at that area so that everybody isn't forced to do it that way.

 

Or we can compromise with each other.

 

Or we can just keep going like this and wreck everything that humanity has been working towards for since the existence of civilization.

[Obtaurian]

Okay. Your interpretation of my post has no basis in reality. I'm asking people to educate themselves on how inundated bosses like Graardor really are. You're asking people to continue living in a bubble world where nothing goes wrong and people should just get along and be happy. It's a nice sentiment, but when you actually feel like going out and making the big bucks (solo MHing), you have to realize that Jagex is essentially forcing us to fight over scraps. I'll use the same analogy I did earlier: Blame Jagex for throwing a single steak to a ravenous crowd of players.

 

EDIT:

 

Okay really stop using the trolling argument on either side. It's just another excuse and it's not dignified at all.

 

If people really don't want a single player game, and they're only crashing other people because there really is no other way to do it, then we need to get a massive petition saying that we want instances at that area so that everybody isn't forced to do it that way.

 

Or we can compromise with each other.

 

Or we can just keep going like this and wreck everything that humanity has been working towards for since the existence of civilization.

 

The solution is not to instance boss areas -- the solution is to give us more options. You can't instance every boss area for both teams and soloists. That'd be like creating a second dungeoneering skill.

[xpx]

If it was easier then why isn't everybody seeking to team whenever possible?

 

My argument is that even though the game is flawed, it does not make your own actions entirely unaccountable if there is a better way, and not looking for a better way is the same thing as deciding that there are no more flaws left.

Yeah, it's so easy killing edgeville men, i have no idea why people aren't doing that...

 

And really, the best thing i can do when i want to make money by killing graar is to solo and crash lower levels to find servers. Why? firstly, because i can't be crashed myself, and secondly, because i can make the most money while having the most fun while doing it. Sure, tough luck for the newb who gets crashed, but it's not really my first concern. There is no equilibrium of crashing when it comes to the elite(which is the significant reason for this thread, some people are seemingly in a win-win situation when you break it down).

 

Okay really stop using the trolling argument on either side. It's just another excuse and it's not dignified at all.

 

If people really don't want a single player game, and they're only crashing other people because there really is no other way to do it, then we need to get a massive petition saying that we want instances at that area so that everybody isn't forced to do it that way.

 

Or we can compromise with each other.

 

Or we can just keep going like this and wreck everything that humanity has been working towards for since the existence of civilization.

Firstly, only lower levels would realistically win in a situation like that, so there is no incentive for someone with maxed levels/gear to go with it.

 

Secondly, petitions like that don't work. If a couple of hundred 85 slayer couldn't stop whips falling rapidly, this has no chance in hell of working. You've just got to adapt to the system.

[stonewall337]

Ok, we seem to come down on two different sides:

 

Those who think 1.) First come First serve is a right and 2.) Levels are irrelevant in who is allowed to kill a boss

 

and those who think 1.) Due to there being no rules to the contrary, as well as a lack of resources, in addition to not accepting the theory of "right through first come first serve", the ability to kill a boss comes down to either no one else taking said boss, or else the ability to either take the boss for yourself, or prevent others to take a boss. And 2.) Whilst there is proper behavior, as well as good manners, in a situation where neither side can "own" a boss, then its is the responsibility of the lower level player to either fight for the spawn, or hop.

 

Therefore, it is my stance that I reject the argument of "first come first serve" as not only be illogical, but also as being impractical and unenforceable currently, and as such determine that a more important factor is both ability and levels, with gear being a less important factor at certain bosses, but a more important factor at others. As such, after due process to find a world, if unable to do so, I will exercise my ability, and although some may disagree I will claim my right, to take a boss, or set of bosses (DKS, TDS)

 

As such, although I view the crashing for "lulz" or to be an ass as reprehensible, much as I would view not blessing a grave of a teammate at GWD, I do not view crashing out of necessity, or practicality, as having any negative bearing on either my in game enjoyment, my real life morality or character.

 

May it thus be known that I will crash if necessary at some bosses, will fight to defend my spawn if practical, and will not crash to be an ass as a rule.

 

In addition, I find a person of similar levels, gear, and skill to me trying to crash me as being a futile gesture, as we will most likely split kills fairly evenly, and thus both parties should either decide who hops, or split kills.

 

I do make exception to whom I crash if they are someone I am friends with, as well.

 

 

I'm still interested in why no one on the opposing (Never crash side) refuses to post their own stance, and if they ever make exceptions.

[Pinata]

I think one of the biggest problems of Runescape, is that besides activities and Dungeoneering, it is geared toward soloing. What Jagex needs to do is create more boss monsters like Corporal best, that require teams for the most part. I think boss monsters that are extremely hard solo, but not so hard with a team would move a lot of people away from GWD, assuming said boss drops something great.

 

Like a lot of people said, with the GE, you can turn everything off, and basically play the game solo. I agree that soloing is fun, but tbh most of RS is geared towards solo, when a lot should be redirected towards community.

 

Either that or Jagex needs to make more Spawns.

[strilmus]

At the moment, there are more options, it's just that nobody wants to use those options and just tries to crash each other at the same spots.

 

If it's money you want, I see nobody at cave horrors despite the fact that masks are about 1 million a pop and you can kill them pretty fast at almost no personal risk at that level.

 

If it's experience you want, there's plenty of armored zombies for you to lay the smackdown on.

 

Instances are the fastest solution I can figure while Jagex can develop even more content, but the problem of the matter is that once that content comes out everybody will want to do that instead since that content will most likely outclass the previous content.

 

If you don't want instances, and you want more options, but you don't want those options to be the same (instances), but those options would then outclass the previous options and then become the "only" options or be less viable and then subsequently ignored, then WHAT DO YOU WANT

[Obtaurian]

At the moment, there are more options, it's just that nobody wants to use those options and just tries to crash each other at the same spots.

 

If it's money you want, I see nobody at cave horrors despite the fact that masks are about 1 million a pop and you can kill them pretty fast at almost no personal risk at that level.

 

If it's experience you want, there's plenty of armored zombies for you to lay the smackdown on.

 

Why is it the 138's responsibility to go to cave horrors or armored zombies? If the 110 wants money or experience, he can go to cave horrors or armored zombies (and he needs the experience more than the 138, obviously).

[xpx]

At the moment, there are more options, it's just that nobody wants to use those options and just tries to crash each other at the same spots.

 

If it's money you want, I see nobody at cave horrors despite the fact that masks are about 1 million a pop and you can kill them pretty fast at almost no personal risk at that level.

 

If it's experience you want, there's plenty of armored zombies for you to lay the smackdown on.

 

Instances are the fastest solution I can figure while Jagex can develop even more content, but the problem of the matter is that once that content comes out everybody will want to do that instead since that content will most likely outclass the previous content.

 

If you don't want instances, and you want more options, but you don't want those options to be the same (instances), but those options would then outclass the previous options and then become the "only" options or be less viable and then subsequently ignored, then WHAT DO YOU WANT

One thing i've seen from your posts is a genera lack of factual knowledge of runescape(which really degrades some of your arguments). Cave horrors are not a good moneymaker.

 

In any case, bandos being VERY crowded is a MAJOR reason people resort to other options like frost dragons, TD's, Armadyl and DK's, so it's not like there aren't any other options, it's just that if you want to kill bandos efficiently, you HAVE to crash. And really, it's not like the lower levels have the only option of killing bandos either- it's just what they choose to do. If they don't want to be crashed, please, kill frost dragons, they are never crowded, thus why the highest level players believe crowded spots should be competed for. If you don't like the competition, you don't have to solo bandos.

[Racheya]

I've just removed some unnecessary flaming posts in this thread. I'm going to make a few quick reminders.

 

RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS. Don't flame, call names or belittle people who have a different opinion to you.

 

Don't just call everything trolling. If something IS trolling or inflammatory then DO NOT RESPOND TO IT. Report it! DON'T RESPOND. Responding makes things far more difficult to deal with because things get dragged on and muddied and no definitive action can be taken. It also weakens your report, when you finally do, if you don't report something until you've made several replies to it.

 

So please, remember the rules.

[stonewall337]

I've just removed some unnecessary flaming posts in this thread. I'm going to make a few quick reminders.

 

RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS. Don't flame, call names or belittle people who have a different opinion to you.

 

Don't just call everything trolling. If something IS trolling or inflammatory then DO NOT RESPOND TO IT. Report it! DON'T RESPOND. Responding makes things far more difficult to deal with because things get dragged on and muddied and no definitive action can be taken. It also weakens your report, when you finally do, if you don't report something until you've made several replies to it.

 

So please, remember the rules.

Opinions are one thing, logical fallicies another.

[Obtaurian]

Now that everyone who is pro-crashing has had their posts deleted, let's see if we can get this argument on track. :rolleyes:

[strilmus]

Okay, so really, if this is about crashing one particular spot, and if this is inherently about competition for killing bandos and not the distribution of a valuable resource, then by all means go for it

 

Because I could have used "An Elitist's View on Crashing Bandos" as the title.

 

Otherwise you would attract attention from a lot of other groups who would not understand what you were talking about if you weren't being highly specific and to the point about it

 

Because up to that point nobody really explained that part of the deal and thought you were just talking about overcrowding everything in general, since it is also an issue at other training/moneymaking spots

[Obtaurian]

I fail to see how blade's post was flaming. But then again, looks like someone with more power came over and crashed the thread instead of finding a new one. So indirectly supporting the point of this thread............hmm

 

Not only that, but several of my posts -- posts in which I put a lot of effort constructing my arguments rationally and logically -- were deleted while the far more inflammatory posts were passed over. Furthermore, Dan and Strilmus's posts were untouched despite the fact that neither of them can say anything other than "but it's not nice!" which is definitely flamebaiting considering how many times that god-awful argument has been debunked.

 

I c wut u did dere.

 

I will not be surprised in the least if my post gets deleted and this one doesn't.