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An Elitist's View on Crashing

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Like I said, if you do want to crash or hold a spot for an extended period of time, if nobody can stop you you've got the spot and "won", but if the money and the self benefit is worth more to you than other people, then I can't really see how you have any right to it

 

And this isn't even about blind morals, it's just plain human decency

 

Or whatever left of it there is to be had

 

Granted, since you see this as a competition everybody else would be seen as competitors

 

But some people are just trying to get by and are there to enjoy the game for what it is

 

And then you just kind of elbow past them and declare yourself king

 

Maybe they were right, if they don't want to compete then they shouldn't play that game anymore

 

Maybe that's why people stopped playing this game in the first place

 

(aside from the others that left after the removal of PvP because there was nothing to compete for anymore)

 

I just find this winner/loser dynamic kind of self destructive

 

And the goal is to make the game unplayable for everybody

Well, this is your opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

 

However, there are quite alot of people who don't see things the way you do. What you may see as self-destructive behavior, others might see as innovative thinking. After all, competing for your chances levels the playing field for everyone. The person who you crash on one day might come back and crash you on another day, thus giving both of them incentive to improve themselves. As a side effect of this welcome competition and thrill(yes), the economy improves, and by making alot of money, those same elitists bring down the prices of high end gear so others can reach those levels more easily. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being nice, but in the end of the day, when the happiness of others comes from the unhappiness of yourself, you are doing something wrong. Most of us just don't have all life to play around, we want to achieve our goals as fast and enjoyably as possible, and if some small part of it comes from making someone else unhappy in some situation, we can live with it. After all, you being nice to someone doesn't automatically guarantee he is also going to be nice- who is there to say that the person you decide not to crash didn't crash someone else for the spot?


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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Like I said, if you do want to crash or hold a spot for an extended period of time, if nobody can stop you you've got the spot and "won", but if the money and the self benefit is worth more to you than other people, then I can't really see how you have any right to it

 

Well, that guy with an addy picks self benefit isnt woth more than my self benefit.

 

If i purposely don't crash him, im harming myself for the benefit of others, and i just don't care enough about my fellow peers to do that.


O.O

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Like I said, if you do want to crash or hold a spot for an extended period of time, if nobody can stop you you've got the spot and "won", but if the money and the self benefit is worth more to you than other people, then I can't really see how you have any right to it

 

Well, that guy with an addy picks self benefit isnt woth more than my self benefit.

 

If i purposely don't crash him, im harming myself for the benefit of others, and i just don't care enough about my fellow peers to do that.

 

Which is why people quit and RS becomes more unpopular, because no one enjoys listening to 138's say "get maxed or GTFO" when you're just trying to have fun.

 

Let GWD and every non-grinding/semi-fun activity become only playable by maxed players, because people who haven't grinded their lives away don't deserve to play them right?

 

Too bad no one cares enough to spend half their life grinding just to be able to compete with [wagon] at GWD, which results in quitting, and the community ends up becoming even more [bleep]ed up and filled only with people that have the mentality that anyone who doesn't have a yellow or red combat level by their name is unimportant and can go kill themselves.

 

Does no one else notice that the average level of players has become like 20 lvls higher since a few years ago but the overall population has seen on a sharp decline?

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Well, this is your opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

 

However, there are quite alot of people who don't see things the way you do. What you may see as self-destructive behavior, others might see as innovative thinking. After all, competing for your chances levels the playing field for everyone. The person who you crash on one day might come back and crash you on another day, thus giving both of them incentive to improve themselves. As a side effect of this welcome competition and thrill(yes), the economy improves, and by making alot of money, those same elitists bring down the prices of high end gear so others can reach those levels more easily. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being nice, but in the end of the day, when the happiness of others comes from the unhappiness of yourself, you are doing something wrong. Most of us just don't have all life to play around, we want to achieve our goals as fast and enjoyably as possible, and if some small part of it comes from making someone else unhappy in some situation, we can live with it. After all, you being nice to someone doesn't automatically guarantee he is also going to be nice- who is there to say that the person you decide not to crash didn't crash someone else for the spot?

 

 

Making others happy should make you happy though. Being nice is a reward in itself. It is not costing you, it is gaining you. In turn, in an ideal world, it would lead to them doing the same. It is all about setting an example for others to follow. The world cannot change in an instant, it takes work to get something done. However, when things do get done, it is it's own reward.

 

 

It is all about setting an example for others.

 

To people who say morals and ethics and the like do not belong in this game, you could not be more wrong. Runescape being an MMO means that it is a community oriented game. Communities where everybody does what they want and doesn't help others will eventually implode and stagnate as nobody will want to join it. I can truly see that happening to runescape.

 

This is all in an ideal world, but I would much rather talk of an ideal world to aim for than a crap world we currently inhabit.


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It's not really Jagex's fault. Granted, they're really stupid when it comes to knowing how other people play their game, and that they've wasted a lot of time on things that nobody actually wanted (rather, they did things that they THOUGHT people wanted before running the ideas past the entire RS public), but really, I blame the dominant RS culture of extreme competition.

 

Jagex, for all their gaffes and poor planning, are ultimately struggling against the dynamic between those who play the game for pure enjoyment and seeing their own characters grow and become more awesome, while others seek to do that ONLY for the satisfaction of being better or richer than anybody else, or to their exclusive benefit at the cost of others while not necessarily wanting to be the best. Some have mixed beliefs on that part, mostly because they think that there is no other way to deal with the crazier people and that they have to fight back, but in that decision have accidentally perpetuated the cycle.

 

So they have tried to strike a balance between competition and growth by introducing elements that mix or balance the two. However, it is never enough for the public. Somebody's always going to complain and argue that their own interests are superior to the others, and that they're not being heard, so ultimately nobody is satisfied with the compromise.

 

Am I necessarily always right in my beliefs that we should work together? No. There is validity in having both a competitive game and a growth based game, and both are necessary to survival in their own way.

 

Perhaps we should have separated long ago. But ultimately we will have to learn how to....deal with it like he said.

 

I was just convinced that Jagex really believed in the growth based game, but apparently most of the community were more interested in competition.


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And i've already mentioned a couple of times on this thread that if I were never to be crashed, i wouldn't ever even consider crashing someone else. However, as i frequently get crashed by those same low levels while training slayer(non-multy crashing), i've given up caring and gone into an eff' you mode. Also, as i've said before, crashing will never stop as there is no accountability for your actions(of that sort) in runescape, thus why comparisons of cutting the line in real life aren't really fair. Unless there is accountability, this will never stop, thus being nice really shouldn't even be considered an option. This is further enhanced by the fact that if you have the best levels/equipment you can crash everyone below you and not be crashed yourself.


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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Which is why people quit and RS becomes more unpopular, because no one enjoys listening to 138's say "get maxed or GTFO" when you're just trying to have fun.

 

Let GWD and every non-grinding/semi-fun activity become only playable by maxed players, because people who haven't grinded their lives away don't deserve to play them right?

 

Too bad no one cares enough to spend half their life grinding just to be able to compete with [wagon] at GWD, which results in quitting, and the community ends up becoming even more [bleep]ed up and filled only with people that have the mentality that anyone who doesn't have a yellow or red combat level by their name is unimportant and can go kill themselves.

 

Does no one else notice that the average level of players has become like 20 lvls higher since a few years ago but the overall population has seen on a sharp decline?

 

Hey don't blame the players. Jagex makes a system where a significant majority of bosses, and a good portion of skills are all negatively effected by competition and which people with higher skill levels (or in mining/single combat areas, faster reflexes), have a better chance in the competition.

 

Naturally theres going to be competition. Unless theres a unified "lets not crash" effort, its not going to happen. And with the limited amount of worlds in some places like bandos, that would never work.

 

If i want an ore, and someone is in my spot. I'm going to kick them out of it, its as simple as that.


O.O

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Ok, we seem to come down on two different sides:

 

Those who think 1.) First come First serve is a right and 2.) Levels are irrelevant in who is allowed to kill a boss

 

and those who think 1.) Due to there being no rules to the contrary, as well as a lack of resources, in addition to not accepting the theory of "right through first come first serve", the ability to kill a boss comes down to either no one else taking said boss, or else the ability to either take the boss for yourself, or prevent others to take a boss. And 2.) Whilst there is proper behavior, as well as good manners, in a situation where neither side can "own" a boss, then its is the responsibility of the lower level player to either fight for the spawn, or hop.

 

Therefore, it is my stance that I reject the argument of "first come first serve" as not only be illogical, but also as being impractical and unenforceable currently, and as such determine that a more important factor is both ability and levels, with gear being a less important factor at certain bosses, but a more important factor at others. As such, after due process to find a world, if unable to do so, I will exercise my ability, and although some may disagree I will claim my right, to take a boss, or set of bosses (DKS, TDS)

 

As such, although I view the crashing for "lulz" or to be an ass as reprehensible, much as I would view not blessing a grave of a teammate at GWD, I do not view crashing out of necessity, or practicality, as having any negative bearing on either my in game enjoyment, my real life morality or character.

 

May it thus be known that I will crash if necessary at some bosses, will fight to defend my spawn if practical, and will not crash to be an ass as a rule.

 

In addition, I find a person of similar levels, gear, and skill to me trying to crash me as being a futile gesture, as we will most likely split kills fairly evenly, and thus both parties should either decide who hops, or split kills.

 

I do make exception to whom I crash if they are someone I am friends with, as well.


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[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
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Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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Well, this is your opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

 

However, there are quite alot of people who don't see things the way you do. What you may see as self-destructive behavior, others might see as innovative thinking. After all, competing for your chances levels the playing field for everyone. The person who you crash on one day might come back and crash you on another day, thus giving both of them incentive to improve themselves. As a side effect of this welcome competition and thrill(yes), the economy improves, and by making alot of money, those same elitists bring down the prices of high end gear so others can reach those levels more easily. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being nice, but in the end of the day, when the happiness of others comes from the unhappiness of yourself, you are doing something wrong. Most of us just don't have all life to play around, we want to achieve our goals as fast and enjoyably as possible, and if some small part of it comes from making someone else unhappy in some situation, we can live with it. After all, you being nice to someone doesn't automatically guarantee he is also going to be nice- who is there to say that the person you decide not to crash didn't crash someone else for the spot?

 

 

Making others happy should make you happy though. Being nice is a reward in itself. It is not costing you, it is gaining you. In turn, in an ideal world, it would lead to them doing the same. It is all about setting an example for others to follow. The world cannot change in an instant, it takes work to get something done. However, when things do get done, it is it's own reward.

 

 

It is all about setting an example for others.

 

To people who say morals and ethics and the like do not belong in this game, you could not be more wrong. Runescape being an MMO means that it is a community oriented game. Communities where everybody does what they want and doesn't help others will eventually implode and stagnate as nobody will want to join it. I can truly see that happening to runescape.

 

This is all in an ideal world, but I would much rather talk of an ideal world to aim for than a crap world we currently inhabit.

You're right. I'm a terrible person with no morals. I have been blind. I always thought that the fun part of the game was playing the game and doing the activities I like to do. Now I realize that even though I thought I was having fun, I actually wasn't, because fun can only come from doing everything anyone else asks me to do no matter how stupid it is. From now on I will do nothing but stand around in F2P Lumbridge giving 10k to noobs because that is the most fun thing in the game.

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Well it's about striking a balance

 

And if you hold that attitude that everybody else is stupid and unimportant

 

Then what are they supposed to expect when you demand that everybody should let you do what you want


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If you aren't going to bother, neither will I troacctid

 

To the last page: It does finally seem as we are getting somewhere. To stonewalls post:

 

I think we need a little bit of give and take between the sides. You shouldn't blindly let people walk all over you, but you should also go out with a mindset in which you will give people a little bit of wiggle room. for example, asking somebody how long they have left at a boss, maybe waiting 5 minutes for them to finish if possible? I don't think either side is totally right, compromise is needed.


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If you aren't going to bother, neither will I troacctid

 

To the last page: It does finally seem as we are getting somewhere. To stonewalls post:

 

I think we need a little bit of give and take between the sides. You shouldn't blindly let people walk all over you, but you should also go out with a mindset in which you will give people a little bit of wiggle room. for example, asking somebody how long they have left at a boss, maybe waiting 5 minutes for them to finish if possible? I don't think either side is totally right, compromise is needed.

 

For a high level maxed player, the wiggle room is in a single combat area.


O.O

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If you aren't going to bother, neither will I troacctid

 

To the last page: It does finally seem as we are getting somewhere. To stonewalls post:

 

I think we need a little bit of give and take between the sides. You shouldn't blindly let people walk all over you, but you should also go out with a mindset in which you will give people a little bit of wiggle room. for example, asking somebody how long they have left at a boss, maybe waiting 5 minutes for them to finish if possible? I don't think either side is totally right, compromise is needed.

Exactly. At dag kings, I hop a few times. At Graador, I ask how long they have left. I crash after giving reasonable effort to find a free world. I'l defend my spot, but if its more efficient to hop, I'l do so.


Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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This is actually probably one area where class-based games such as WoW have an edge over RS. Everyone's pretty much going for the same goals.


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The funny thing is that nobody in RS wants to be forced into team situations because they think they're better off by themselves.

 

I think this is the heart of the matter in where the unlimited free will leads towards another kind of "god wars" in a way where everybody wants to exercise their full range of abilities regardless of the consequences.

 

They want a single player game.


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The funny thing is that nobody in RS wants to be forced into team situations because they think they're better off by themselves.

 

I think this is the heart of the matter in where the unlimited free will leads towards another kind of "god wars" in a way where everybody wants to exercise their full range of abilities regardless of the consequences.

 

They want a single player game.

fact: a 138 makes more money per hour soloing a boss than teaming it with another friend.

 

they are factually better off by themselves to solo a boss.

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Well it's about striking a balance

 

And if you hold that attitude that everybody else is stupid and unimportant

 

Then what are they supposed to expect when you demand that everybody should let you do what you want

Except there is a problem- namely, having maxed levels and gear means you are uncrashable and can crash anyone else below you, thus having no reason really not to crash. And this really is an important point in the ELITIST view, for most people, there is an equilibrium, for the elite, there isn't.

 

They want a single player game.

People solo because it's better to do so, not because they want a single player game. The majority of people team in dungeoneering, y'know.


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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Oh. My. God.

 

Can someone please explain how morality has ANYTHING to do with there being two people fighting over most bosses on almost every world? ONCE AGAIN, this isn't some fairytale land where the big bad 138 decides to pick on the poor wittle 110. There are REASONS that are completely mutually exclusive of morality and "social norms."

 

I'd like to set a challenge for all of you who are against crashing: For the next 30 days, you must spend every second of your playtime soloing Graardor. Buy the best gear you can afford, read up on efficient soloing methods, and have at it. I GUARANTEE you that in 30 days, you will be a convert. You will no longer have any qualms with crashing. You will be so fed up with waiting for people to leave worlds that you will resort to crashing, and you'll be crashed within a minute of you entering the boss chamber, so you will start thinking about maxing your skills and buying better gear so you can CRASH and PREVENT BEING CRASHED because there's no other way to do it.

 

I use Graardor as an example because he's easily the busiest boss. Bosses like DKs and TDs are much better for money, especially due to worlds being easier to find. Thus, people don't typically crash those two bosses.


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If dungeoneering didn't REQUIRE multiple people for the maximum statistical yield, you know everybody would solo it

 

It's really just about maximum statistical yield, so really if they wanted that they never would bother with the social aspect on a greater level than chatting.

 

So, single player game with a chatroom on the side.


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You seem to have me confused with somebody who uses morality as a weapon to do anything I want to regardless of who is harmed

 

The thing is, I find the wellbeing of everybody to be worth more than any one particular person

 

So I guess if you consider that to be not possible then perhaps you are right

 

But that would mean that you are also equally expendable in this regard


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If dungeoneering didn't REQUIRE multiple people for the maximum statistical yield, you know everybody would solo it

 

It's really just about maximum statistical yield, so really if they wanted that they never would bother with the social aspect on a greater level than chatting.

 

So, single player game with a chatroom on the side.

Wait, i can play that game too...

 

If killing bosses in runescape required players to work together to maximize efficiency... You know this is going nowhere. What if's mean nothing. You are as wrong as anyone can ever be about the fact that people solo just because they want a single player game, and there is no real argument in it(teaming is actually much less risky and easier). Players adapt to the system, and if the system is flawd, why blame the players?


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First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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If it was easier then why isn't everybody seeking to team whenever possible?

 

My argument is that even though the game is flawed, it does not make your own actions entirely unaccountable if there is a better way, and not looking for a better way is the same thing as deciding that there are no more flaws left.


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Oh. My. God.

 

Can someone please explain how morality has ANYTHING to do with there being two people fighting over most bosses on almost every world? ONCE AGAIN, this isn't some fairytale land where the big bad 138 decides to pick on the poor wittle 110. There are REASONS that are completely mutually exclusive of morality and "social norms."

 

I'd like to set a challenge for all of you who are against crashing: For the next 30 days, you must spend every second of your playtime soloing Graardor. Buy the best gear you can afford, read up on efficient soloing methods, and have at it. I GUARANTEE you that in 30 days, you will be a convert. You will no longer have any qualms with crashing. You will be so fed up with waiting for people to leave worlds that you will resort to crashing, and you'll be crashed within a minute of you entering the boss chamber, so you will start thinking about maxing your skills and buying better gear so you can CRASH and PREVENT BEING CRASHED because there's no other way to do it.

 

I use Graardor as an example because he's easily the busiest boss. Bosses like DKs and TDs are much better for money, especially due to worlds being easier to find. Thus, people don't typically crash those two bosses.

 

 

This is an MMO, which means other people are playing. We are human beings, which some people forget just because you cannot see the other person. It is a community driven game with other people. You cannot possibly argue that morality does not come into the equation. I am not 100% against crashing, by all means do it if you have tried the other options first, waiting to see if somebody finishes and/or hopping worlds. I am however against people going to bosses with the mindset that they will crash whoever is there straight away because they can.

 

Wiggle room and compromise are the key factors. Going totally one side is ignorant on one side and stupid on the other.


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Okay really stop using the trolling argument on either side. It's just another excuse and it's not dignified at all.

 

If people really don't want a single player game, and they're only crashing other people because there really is no other way to do it, then we need to get a massive petition saying that we want instances at that area so that everybody isn't forced to do it that way.

 

Or we can compromise with each other.

 

Or we can just keep going like this and wreck everything that humanity has been working towards for since the existence of civilization.


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