An Elitist's View on Crashing

[i_trollz_u]

I fail to see how blade's post was flaming. But then again, looks like someone with more power came over and crashed the thread instead of finding a new one. So indirectly supporting the point of this thread............hmm

 

Not only that, but several of my posts -- posts in which I put a lot of effort constructing my arguments rationally and logically -- were deleted while the far more inflammatory posts were passed over. Furthermore, Dan and Strilmus's posts were untouched despite the fact that neither of them can say anything other than "but it's not nice!" which is definitely flamebaiting considering how many times that god-awful argument has been debunked.

 

I c wut u did dere.

 

I will not be surprised in the least if my post gets deleted and this one doesn't.

 

They were almost all deleted at different times.

[Racheya]

Okay this is the last post regarding this matter.

Any posts after this regarding deletion of posts, people being 'trolls' and feeling unfairly treated will be removed without hesitation and regard for anything else in the post.

 

If you have a serious issue with forum moderation then talk to the administration, they're there to help deal with these matters. If you just want to whine then keep it to yourself because it's not what this thread is for.

[strilmus]

My main issue is that you are snapping at others who do not quite understand that there are other alternatives for people who did not want competition, and that it looked like you were forcing them into an arrangement of such

 

And that the initial post did nothing to address that and didn't really accomplish anything which just kind of steamrolled into confusion

[xpx]

Okay, so really, if this is about crashing one particular spot, and if this is inherently about competition for killing bandos and not the distribution of a valuable resource, then by all means go for it

 

Because I could have used "An Elitist's View on Crashing Bandos" as the title.

 

Otherwise you would attract attention from a lot of other groups who would not understand what you were talking about if you weren't being highly specific and to the point about it

 

Because up to that point nobody really explained that part of the deal and thought you were just talking about overcrowding everything in general, since it is also an issue at other training/moneymaking spots

It is explained in the first post that there are really only three(bandos, td's and dk's) places where you would have any problems with crashing and there are ALWAYS better alternatives for them when you can get crashed. As i said, you should focus on some basic knowledge(before you get into heated debates posting false information).

[Obtaurian]

You really can't blame any of us for being snappy and impatient when EVERY. SINGLE. THING. YOU. SAY. has been debunked many, many times in this thread. Just read the thread. That's all you need to do. If people would read the thread before posting, it would be dead already.

[strilmus]

He didn't say those were the only three spots

 

And those are not the only spots that you can be crashed at!

 

But my main argument is that competition isn't the only way

 

But in this case if training at Bandos/DK/TD's is ONLY about competition then it is perfectly fine

 

Just don't expect everybody else to understand right away when isn't explicitly stated

 

Or to sympathize when you've just taken something from them by force

[stonewall337]

He didn't say those were the only three spots

 

And those are not the only spots that you can be crashed at!

 

But my main argument is that competition isn't the only way

 

But in this case if training at Bandos/DK/TD's is ONLY about competition then it is perfectly fine

 

Just don't expect everybody else to understand right away when isn't explicitly stated

 

Or to sympathize when you've just taken something from them by force

Thank you captain obvious? DUH they are normally not happy.

[Bladewing]

But in this case if training at Bandos/DK/TD's is ONLY about competition then it is perfectly fine

you will also see competition derived crashing at team saradomin and armadyl godwars.

 

that's the only type of crashing that i think any of the "pro-crashers" (as much as anyone can be a proponent - i mostly see it as the lesser of two bad options) have been defending.

 

very few people will say that a 138 crashing a team of 80s in a lootshare world at the KBD is defensible. although some will say it's okay as it's not against the rules of the game (which i agree with), most would say it's kind of a mean-spirited thing to do (which i agree with). if i were in that situation at the KBD, i would hop worlds because a) i know that i can find a good world in one or two hops and b) i know that being in a lootshare world increases my odds of being crashed by a duo of 135s.

[stonewall337]

But in this case if training at Bandos/DK/TD's is ONLY about competition then it is perfectly fine

you will also see competition derived crashing at team saradomin and armadyl godwars.

 

that's the only type of crashing that i think any of the "pro-crashers" (as much as anyone can be a proponent - i mostly see it as the lesser of two bad options) have been defending.

 

very few people will say that a 138 crashing a team of 80s in a lootshare world at the KBD is defensible. although some will say it's okay as it's not against the rules of the game, most would say it's kind of a mean-spirited thing to do.

Very well put.

[strilmus]

The thing is, I've just been trying to explain why might isn't always right, and somehow this is interpreted as trolling when it's not exactly obvious that a fair competition has taken place when you step in and sock somebody in the gut, then explain to him how it was his right to do so and not to complain about it.

[xpx]

He didn't say those were the only three spots

 

And those are not the only spots that you can be crashed at!

 

But my main argument is that competition isn't the only way

 

But in this case if training at Bandos/DK/TD's is ONLY about competition then it is perfectly fine

 

Just don't expect everybody else to understand right away when isn't explicitly stated

You can't always mention everything, that's where general knowledge on runescape comes in. Bandos is heavily crowded, TD's and DK's are usually OK(not having to crash). Armadyl and Frost dragons are empty(i think solo corp is usually empty too). All of those can earn around 4m an hour. If you don't like competition, you adapt to that, not run a petition for the community to adapt to you.

 

And well, i'm completely fine with you agreeing to the fact that some of the more crowded spots should be about competition and vice versa. It's really what any of us have been trying to say- lower levels don't have to compete for the spots if they don't like getting crashed when they could make more money doing other things.

 

The thing is, I've just been trying to explain why might isn't always right, and somehow this is interpreted as trolling when it's not exactly obvious that a fair competition has taken place when you step in and sock somebody in the gut, then explain to him how it was his right to do so and not to complain about it.

 

We don't all think might is always right, but in some situations, it's necessary. Nothing more to it really...

[Bladewing]

The thing is, I've just been trying to explain why might isn't always right, and somehow this is interpreted as trolling when it's not exactly obvious that a fair competition has taken place when you step in and sock somebody in the gut, then explain to him how it was his right to do so and not to complain about it.

don't you think it's a bit hyperbolic to say that being crashed at an unbelievably crowded spot is equivalent to being "sock[ed] in the gut"? surely everyone who has ever even tried to kill graardor knows how ridiculously crowded it is? using simple deduction they should have realized that there is a high chance that they would run into another player fighting for the same turf.

[strilmus]

General knowledge is not general!

 

Everybody does know that those spots are crowded, but not everybody knows that it is acceptable to take those spots from each other when they have raised to have manners

 

(yes I am jabbing you in the ribs with that one but please do not overreact)

 

This is why Jagex keeps messing up, and perhaps we should be trying to help them understand what is going on rather than berate them for it

 

(as much as I enjoy it)

 

There just isn't a good outlet for that to happen and I think we could be doing more to extend that olive branch

 

Also really I am trying to figure out a way to reconcile the varying interests so that we don't have to keep yelling at each other all the time, so while it is in my self interest I am really thinking about interests of others in general

 

But I have to ask

 

Do you crash and get crashed because you are driven by this kind of competition, or because you are just doing it to earn more stuff

[Assume Nothing]

The thing is, I've just been trying to explain why might isn't always right, and somehow this is interpreted as trolling when it's not exactly obvious that a fair competition has taken place when you step in and sock somebody in the gut, then explain to him how it was his right to do so and not to complain about it.

 

Odd fact; According to studies, 40% of all text on the internet (including emails, facebook, etc) is misinterpreted. This is usually because what people are saying is being filtered through their own emotions. If the reader is annoyed, it'll probably make them angry.

 

On Topic; Crashing isn't always deemed morally "right". But morals aren't worth much on RuneScape, no matter how much you try and claim it is. It doesn't make you richer, or faster, or better, or feel morally superior. Being "nice" only costs you, in time, effort, and money.

 

More crowded spots are bound to be crashed, there's no way to go about it. As I've stated before, until JaGex instances boss areas, we will always have competition. Direct, or indirect.

 

But I always like going back to the basics. Semantics. Crashing what, where, and how. For me, the word "crashing" means "fighting for a world, in order to obtain a limited resource". I would instantly visualize Graardor hitting a level 120 with Black Dhide Top, Vskirt, Bgs, Rune Boots and a Strength Skillcape with Piety and Supers.

 

It isn't "wrong" to crash at Bandos. Every world is full of maxed players, and it's impossible to get a world without crashing. It is arguably wrong to crash a team of level 80's at KBD on a LS world, because you can get a better world within 2 hops, as bladewing has pointed out.

 

We haven't explored the ethics of crashing mining spots, pre LRC. Is it right, or wrong, to 'steal' a world at a mining spot?

[xpx]

General knowledge is not general!

 

Everybody does know that those spots are crowded, but not everybody knows that it is acceptable to take those spots from each other when they have raised to have manners

 

(yes I am jabbing you in the ribs with that one but please do not overreact)

 

This is why Jagex keeps messing up, and perhaps we should be trying to help them understand what is going on rather than berate them for it

 

(as much as I enjoy it)

 

There just isn't a good outlet for that to happen and I think we could be doing more to extend that olive branch

 

Also really I am trying to figure out a way to reconcile the varying interests so that we don't have to keep yelling at each other all the time, so while it is in my self interest I am really thinking about interests of others in general

 

But I have to ask

 

Do you crash and get crashed because you are driven by this kind of competition, or because you are just doing it to earn more stuff

If you don't have the general knowledge of something, you simply don't post. It's really that simple. If i don't know the answer to a question in H&A, i don't go bladdering about what i do know. The other option is to educate yourself(which you didn't do).

 

The answer to the question has long been answered by me in this thread. If you want it, you'll have to work for it.

[Bladewing]

General knowledge is not general!

 

Everybody does know that those spots are crowded, but not everybody knows that it is acceptable to take those spots from each other when they have raised to have manners

it would astound me to meet anyone with the requirements to kill graardor once who has never been "crashed" at popular spots like: goblin house, cow pen, chicken pen, hill giants, lesser demons, green dragons, mining ore, etc.

 

if they have never experienced the norm of crashing in runescape then they likely botted or purchased their account - such players receive no pity from me.

 

Do you crash and get crashed because you are driven by this kind of competition, or because you are just doing it to earn more stuff

i don't even do bandos because it's actually not that good money compared to DKs or TDs, and ridiculously crowded. i don't crash at TDs. i only crash at DKs if there are no open worlds in the narrow population range i need to maximize kills and minimize risks (there are usually only 2-5 worlds in this margin, so i actually will check them all before i crash). solo mages can use a higher population world which cannon tribrids cannot use as effectively.

[das]

Sup Guys,

 

 

I'd like to say a few things.

 

First off this is a topic that is nice and grey. Theirs plenty of people who feel crashing is legitimate in 2010 depending on the time and place. Depending on the circumstances, I am pro-crashing. (I'll crash anything but a clan war, deathmatch or boss room) Combat spots? Fair game to me, and i'll raid them.

 

 

People will NEVER agree with each other on this, as many people feel it's evil, satanic and dishonrable and to an extent just like anything in American politics - you can create an argument for why it's the downfall of america (runescape).

 

 

That being said, Heated discussions are good - I like heated discussions, they draw me into posts but theres no need to argue side A or B is trolling, Most people are intentionally thick on morality issues as you are not debating logic but morals that they live by and thats not going to change in one post or 15 pages more than likely.

 

Let's keep this civil, professional and respectful.

 

If a post gets removed, and you feel it's moved incorrectly, PM me or Tripsis or another admin and we will investigate it. of the last 10 or so removed, we restored 2.

 

~Das

[strilmus]

If this thread wasn't here at all and you had continued to proceed by this system without trying to justify it to people with limited knowledge and expect them to understand by repeated negative interactions, I wouldn't have attempted to figure out what it was you were trying to say with my limited knowledge and subsequently learned what it is you were getting at.

 

In short, nothing would have changed and no growth would have occurred.

 

We could keep things more civil from now on, though, right?

[Troacctid]

The thing is, I've just been trying to explain why might isn't always right, and somehow this is interpreted as trolling when it's not exactly obvious that a fair competition has taken place when you step in and sock somebody in the gut, then explain to him how it was his right to do so and not to complain about it.

So it's okay for low-levels to crash high-levels, but not for high-levels to crash low-levels?

 

I've said this at least three or four times already, but boss rooms are public areas. If I'm killing the KBD and you walk in to do the same, you have just as much right to be there as I do, and I will respect that right and expect you to do the same for me. It doesn't matter who was there first. We're both here now, and either one of us has the right to choose whether or not to hop worlds. I will respect that right as well and expect you to do the same for me. If you don't want to hop, and I don't want to hop, then I guess we're fighting for that KBD spawn, and it's your decision as much as mine.

[strilmus]

I didn't say it was okay for low levels to crash high levels.

 

In fact I am against crashing of any kind! (In the sense that you are imposing your will on somebody else who has not agreed to those terms.)

 

But really as long as this is as mutual as you say it is (and that everybody is aware of this social contract) then it is perfectly fine!

 

You just run into problems when people don't understand why this situation should exist in the first place.

[Assume Nothing]

I didn't say it was okay for low levels to crash high levels.

 

In fact I am against crashing of any kind!

 

But really as long as this is as mutual as you say it is (and that everybody is aware of this social contract) then it is perfectly fine!

 

You just run into problems when people don't understand why this situation should exist in the first place.

 

Please, propose a solution to crashing then. Remember folks, we don't live in an ideal world. It must be a practical JaGex update too.

[strilmus]

The problem with that is that you folks seem to be entirely against instances and since we can't have that, it is not very practical for Jagex to be able to make enough unique content to satisfy the demand without ending up just replacing one demand with another or not living up to your expectations.

[Bladewing]

i at least am okay with instances :unsure:

 

it'll drive the prices of loot down, but i think that's actually probably okay.

 

ps: saying "you folks" is very antagonistic and doesn't help with the whole "come together/let it be" beatles soundtrack you are proposing (lol), since it really only strengthens the ingroup/outgroup bias we have all seen (but i do think it's okay for us to be civil)

[strilmus]

Well, considering that the demand is really outstripping the supply by a huge deal, I think people would be okay with a hit in overall profit if people were able to just be able to participate in the activity in the first place, because if you end up not being able to do it at all, that's basically zero profit for you.

[Obtaurian]

IMO, the only practical solution to crashing is to create a variety of bosses, both instanced and non-instanced, and we need new ones every so often. If we got ten new bosses tomorrow, then one or two more every year, that'd probably do the trick.

 

As I've said before, you can't really just make everything instanced, as the server load would be enormous. They just need to spread the players thin.