Extremes in New Wildy

[DyingSilent]

Right now the tactic is survive the first specs and then duke it out.

 

Umm...no? I'm sorry if I'm mistaken, but you seem like an edge pker who has very little experience pking, and think that a DDS is used purely to poison someone.

 

NO. Any real pker knows that a Special weapon is just that, a SPECIAL weapon. You use it for kills, not because "Meh, i'll just throw this random spec out there while my opponent is full hp."

 

Also, "duke it out"...? Are you kidding? 90% of the people pking don't stay in fights when they are out. That's why you need to use your specials at the right time, so your opponent can't run for fear of losing 500k.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Back on topic...

 

I retract my previous statement, about at minimum having certain worlds for extremes/overloads. I think that is actually the best approach for Jagex to take.

[Soma2035]

We allow Turmoil. We don't allow Extremes. That's inherently unfair

Do you understand what xpx said about them a few posts up?

 

and balance isn't a valid excuse when the system is already completely imbalanced, and proper balance could be achieved many other ways.

You are saying that PVP being inbalanced is a valid reason to introduce even more derailing items?

 

Curses in themselves require prayer level to use, which, evidently, gives you a higher combat level. The boost in combat ability is reflected on your combat level. Hand cannons are risked when you go into the wilderness, thus they are balanced with that. With extremes, you have something that boosts your combat ability, is not reflected in combat level and carries no risk. Now when you know that the wilderness is completely unbalanced in terms of DPS vs. LP, what changes would you make? Realistically, only extremes come up as a great example because they are not balanced and reflect on every combat class near equally.

 

No.

 

Ancient Curses requires quest completion and various skill requirements to unlock.

Ancient Curses requires prayer levels to benefit from it after it's been unlocked.

It provides more than one benefit, with gradually increasing prayer level requirements, up to 95.

 

Extreme Attack Potions require a non-combat skill to unlock.

Extreme Attack Potions require attack levels to benefit from them after they've been unlocked.

It provides more than one benefit, with gradually increasing attack level requirements, up to 95.

 

If your prayer levels also represent the increase in combat ability due to Curses, the attack levels also represent the increase in combat ability from Extreme Potions, because without 16 Attack, you aren't getting the +1 Attack, just like without 50 prayer, you aren't getting Sap Warrior. This continues up the scale until 95 prayer and 96 attack (Turmoil and +7 Attack).

 

Yes. I'm saying that if PvP is already imbalanced, allowing another imbalanced item that also conveys other benefits (fair to people who invested in one over the other, fair to people who want to continue using them for what they've been using them for since they were released) is a good idea, and balance should be addressed as a separate issue because it goes much farther than Extremes.

 

Turmoil is allowed because you need 96 prayer levels to use it. That in term reflects on your combat level. The same is true for rigor and augury. Is herblore reflected in combat levels? Does using extremes carry higher risk? thank you.

 

You need 95 Prayer to use Turmoil. But that's not all. You need 92 Prayer to use Soul Split. You need 89 Prayer to use Wrath. So on, and so on.

 

You need 96 Attack to use the +7 advantage Extreme has over Super. You need 81 or 82 Attack to use the +6 advantaged. So on, and so on. Having Ancient Curses does you absolutely no good if your Prayer is very low, and having Extreme Potions does you absolutely no good if your combat levels are very low.

 

I see no difference besides the magnitude of the requirements. 65 Smithing versus 88 Herblore, or 95 Prayer versus 96 Attack. The principle is the same though. Non-combat to unlock, not represented in combat level, combat to benefit from it.

[Pay_Me]

Extremes were never allowed in dangerous PvP. It's not going to change all of a sudden.

 

Actually they were for a day. Then too many people that didn't have high herblore.....which was a lot of people back then...complained and it got removed. Back then herb was one of the least trained skills, so not very many people could make any extremes. Since it's release there has be dung items added, new armor, armor soaking.

 

Extremes came out on Oct. 9th, 2009

 

Curses came out on Dec. 3rd 2009

 

So curses can ballance out the effects of extremes too.

[brunokiller]

Please explain me why introducing another imbalanced item is the right thing to do while Jagex tries to balance pvp.

 

That's creating problems because you want to fix problems.

 

It's the same as having a broken windshield and then smashing up the other windows, because they're going to fix it anyways.

[xpx]

Soma, you know your arguments are BS. The fact is, apart from the hunter area food(which aren't that much better than other food) and extremes, other combat related abilities are balanced. Thus, when deciding upon which abilities to remove in order to make the system better, extremes are the first that anyone should come up with.

[Soma2035]

Please explain me why introducing another imbalanced item is the right thing to do while Jagex tries to balance pvp.

 

That's creating problems because you want to fix problems.

 

A) Balance should include all factors. If you balance a scale and toss a weight on one side, what do you know, it's not balanced anymore. It's been proven that Jagex can not imagine every way players use content, in a process known as "emergent gameplay." The best way for Jagex to get a complete picture of the imbalances is for every major factor to be involved in the picture.

 

B) In the meantime, you are not favoring one group of players over another. Those who invested in smithing and quests are being favored over those who invested in herblore. Those who have done both only get the benefit of half of their efforts. By allowing extremes, you benefit both.

 

C) If Jagex wants to continue drawing people into the Wilderness to use the wilderness alternatives, then adding penalties for using Wilderness spots is not a good idea. And removing Extreme Potions is exactly such a penalty. If Jagex decides Wilderness should be designed entirely for PvP, we really don't need Green Dragons, Hellhounds, Moss Giants, Greater Demons, Chaos Elemental, and whatever else out there. They're honestly just decorations that may annoy PKers out there and interfere with player-versus-player combat. On the other hand, if Jagex wants to continue to draw people into the Wilderness, the Abyss needs to be made better, Clue rewards need to compensate for the effort required in doing a Wilderness clue, and Jagex should not further limit people who could potentially choose to do something in the Wilderness.

 

Soma, you know your arguments are BS. The fact is, apart from the hunter area food(which aren't that much better than other food) and extremes, other combat related abilities are balanced. Thus, when deciding upon which abilities to remove in order to make the system better, extremes are the first that anyone should come up with.

 

I know no such thing. Instead of resorting to calling it BS, why not explain how my Ancient Curses / Extreme potions analogy is wrong? It looks pretty similar from where I'm standing. Non-combat to get it, combat to benefit from it, combat levels are shown whether or not the ability is unlocked?

 

Also, what imbalances are you referring to? Personally, I feel that Dragon Claw specials are one of the most imbalanced features in the Wilderness right now, allowing you to do insanely over-the-top damage in two quick attacks. But Turmoil benefits this as much as (if not more so than) Extreme Strengths at level 96+ Strength. Similarly, Dark Bow's damage is pretty close to game-breaking, but Rigour is every bit a part of it as Extreme Ranging.

[GuidesForScapers]

Lol...the brunosword- clearly never going to be weilded by anything female if you know what I mean....

QFW

[B_Ryan20]

If you can use supers why not extremes?

 

maybe i'm missing something

 

Why am i being punished for raising my herblore level

[xpx]

Please explain me why introducing another imbalanced item is the right thing to do while Jagex tries to balance pvp.

 

That's creating problems because you want to fix problems.

 

A) Balance should include all factors. If you balance a scale and toss a weight on one side, what do you know, it's not balanced anymore. It's been proven that Jagex can not imagine every way players use content, in a process known as "emergent gameplay." The best way for Jagex to get a complete picture of the imbalances is for every major factor to be involved in the picture.

 

B) In the meantime, you are not favoring one group of players over another. Those who invested in smithing and quests are being favored over those who invested in herblore. Those who have done both only get the benefit of half of their efforts. By allowing extremes, you benefit both.

 

C) If Jagex wants to continue drawing people into the Wilderness to use the wilderness alternatives, then adding penalties for using Wilderness spots is not a good idea. And removing Extreme Potions is exactly such a penalty. If Jagex decides Wilderness should be designed entirely for PvP, we really don't need Green Dragons, Hellhounds, Moss Giants, Greater Demons, Chaos Elemental, and whatever else out there. They're honestly just decorations that may annoy PKers out there and interfere with player-versus-player combat. On the other hand, if Jagex wants to continue to draw people into the Wilderness, the Abyss needs to be made better, Clue rewards need to compensate for the effort required in doing a Wilderness clue, and Jagex should not further limit people who could potentially choose to do something in the Wilderness.

People who invested in herblore knew they don't work on pvp worlds, and might not work in the wilderness if it should come back. Thus it's not like taking candy away from a kid, as you are making us believe.

 

As for pvm in the wilderness, you know that there was pvm before october 09, right? Most of the people who do pvm in the wilderness don't have extremes anyway, and the only boss that suffers is unpopular anyway(you can currently use anything you want on him, and the risk is much lower, but still, nobody kills it).

 

I know no such thing. Instead of resorting to calling it BS, why not explain how my Ancient Curses / Extreme potions analogy is wrong? It looks pretty similar from where I'm standing. Non-combat to get it, combat to benefit from it, combat levels are shown whether or not the ability is unlocked?

 

Also, what imbalances are you referring to? Personally, I feel that Dragon Claw specials are one of the most imbalanced features in the Wilderness right now, allowing you to do insanely over-the-top damage in two quick attacks. But Turmoil benefits this as much as (if not more so than) Extreme Strengths at level 96+ Strength. Similarly, Dark Bow's damage is pretty close to game-breaking, but Rigour is every bit a part of it as Extreme Ranging.

Attack levels are already reflected on your combat level, so there is no reason to consider attack twice because you like herblore. The fact is, extreme potions do not affect combat level and don't add risk, and no matter how much bs you can put up, it's not going to change.

 

Claws are balanced in terms of risk, rigor is reflected in combat levels, thus both are balanced. How hard is this to understand, really?

 

B_ryan, how is anyone getting punished? Did you train the levels to get an edge in the wilderness? guess what, unless you got 1-96 herblore in the two days they were allowed, you are talking BS. People who have trained their herblore knew it would not give them an advantage in dangerous pvp, thus there is nothing to complain about.

[Pay_Me]

Please explain me why introducing another imbalanced item is the right thing to do while Jagex tries to balance pvp.

 

That's creating problems because you want to fix problems.

 

It's the same as having a broken windshield and then smashing up the other windows, because they're going to fix it anyways.

 

Wrong analogy....taking extremes out of pvp is like driving across the country 10 time. Then picking one bug off the front bumper of the car and saying its clean.

[brunokiller]

A) Balance should include all factors. If you balance a scale and toss a weight on one side, what do you know, it's not balanced anymore. It's been proven that Jagex can not imagine every way players use content, in a process known as "emergent gameplay." The best way for Jagex to get a complete picture of the imbalances is for every major factor to be involved in the picture.

 

What allowing extremes would do is tossing yet another weight on the same side before trying to balance it; you'll find it's counterproductive.

 

B) In the meantime, you are not favoring one group of players over another. Those who invested in smithing and quests are being favored over those who invested in herblore. Those who have done both only get the benefit of half of their efforts. By allowing extremes, you benefit both.

By allowing extremes you punish those that didn't spend 150m on herblore. Spending 150m on prayer does not punish those because they are 6/7 combats lower.

 

C) If Jagex wants to continue drawing people into the Wilderness to use the wilderness alternatives, then adding penalties for using Wilderness spots is not a good idea. And removing Extreme Potions is exactly such a penalty. If Jagex decides Wilderness should be designed entirely for PvP, we really don't need Green Dragons, Hellhounds, Moss Giants, Greater Demons, Chaos Elemental, and whatever else out there. They're honestly just decorations that may annoy PKers out there and interfere with player-versus-player combat. On the other hand, if Jagex wants to continue to draw people into the Wilderness, the Abyss needs to be made better, Clue rewards need to compensate for the effort required in doing a Wilderness clue, and Jagex should not further limit people who could potentially choose to do something in the Wilderness.

I am discussing their use in PVP (read: not PVM) combat.

[GuidesForScapers]

As for pvm in the wilderness, you know that there was pvm before october 09, right? Most of the people who do pvm in the wilderness don't have extremes anyway, and the only boss that suffers is unpopular anyway.

There is nothing in the wilderness worthy of extremes, IMHO. Yes, they would help on the Chaos Elemental. However the Chaos Elemental is being given new drops, so even if the kills are slightly slower they will be MUCH more rewarding.

[Soma2035]

People who invested in herblore knew they don't work on pvp worlds, and might not work in the wilderness if it should come back. Thus it's not like taking candy away from a kid, as you are making us believe.

 

As for pvm in the wilderness, you know that there was pvm before october 09, right? Most of the people who do pvm in the wilderness don't have extremes anyway, and the only boss that suffers is unpopular anyway.

 

Most people who invested in herblore knew that they wouldn't work on PvP worlds. They did not know there was any chance of the Wilderness coming back. In fact, Jagex explicitly stated multiple times on RSOF that the Wilderness was never coming back. Why was there any reason to believe that suddenly there would be a day where I could no longer slay Hellhounds in the Wilderness using Extremes? Or Greater Demons, or anything else out there? The Wilderness has been a PvM place for three years now, with no warning until a vague message in MMG's clan chat within the past couple months that the wilderness may become PvP again.

 

The only boss that suffers is unpopular because it has a bad drop table. Guess what this update was going to change? That's right, the drop table of that one boss.

 

In either case, this is rather ridiculous. If you say there's no reason, I mention PvM is a reason, and you go "OMG YOU WANT A PVM HEAVEN YOU'RE STUPID LOLOL." That's not the case at all.

 

There are multiple reasons to bring Extremes into the Wilderness. Proper balance is one of them - if we believe Jagex actually WANTS to achieve proper balance, then it's best if everything's in the picture now instead of fixing it, throwing it out of the loop, and fixing it again. Fairness is another - you still have not explained where my comparison of Ancient Curses and Herblore is wrong - both of them are non-combat, both of them require combat levels to benefit from them, neither of them are actually shown in your combat level, but the actual level of benefit is dependent on a combat skill which IS usually shown.

[brunokiller]

Eh. Turmoil requires 95 prayer. Prayer is displayed in your combat level

 

Extremes/ovls require 90ish herblore. Herblore is not displayed in your combat level.

 

 

Learn to read

 

 

 

There are also plenty of other places to fight said monsters (except chaos elemental of course).

[DyingSilent]

People who invested in herblore knew they don't work on pvp worlds, and might not work in the wilderness if it should come back. Thus it's not like taking candy away from a kid, as you are making us believe.

 

As for pvm in the wilderness, you know that there was pvm before october 09, right? Most of the people who do pvm in the wilderness don't have extremes anyway, and the only boss that suffers is unpopular anyway.

 

Most people who invested in herblore knew that they wouldn't work on PvP worlds. They did not know there was any chance of the Wilderness coming back. In fact, Jagex explicitly stated multiple times on RSOF that the Wilderness was never coming back. Why was there any reason to believe that suddenly there would be a day where I could no longer slay Hellhounds in the Wilderness using Extremes? Or Greater Demons, or anything else out there? The Wilderness has been a PvM place for three years now, with no warning until a vague message in MMG's clan chat within the past couple months that the wilderness may become PvP again.

 

Wow, Jagex went back on their words....I swear, that's never happened before! :notalk: [/sarcasm]

[Pay_Me]

Eh. Turmoil requires 95 prayer. Prayer is displayed in your combat level

 

Extremes/ovls require 90ish herblore. Herblore is not displayed in your combat level.

 

 

Learn to read

 

 

You can have 95 pray without having done the quest to get curses.....and your cmb lvl will still be the same.

[Danqazmlp]

If you can use supers why not extremes?

 

maybe i'm missing something

 

Why am i being punished for raising my herblore level

 

As it they have not bee allowed in PVP anyway (The two days honestly do not count) There is no punishment. If you trained those levels, you would have known you could not use them in PVP. Nothing is changing, that is what people are arguing for. The wilderness needs fixing, not being made worse.

 

Please explain me why introducing another imbalanced item is the right thing to do while Jagex tries to balance pvp.

 

That's creating problems because you want to fix problems.

 

It's the same as having a broken windshield and then smashing up the other windows, because they're going to fix it anyways.

 

Wrong analogy....taking extremes out of pvp is like driving across the country 10 time. Then picking one bug off the front bumper of the car and saying its clean.

 

Sorry but that example just doesn't work. First off, the 'bug' which I guess you relate to extremes was never there in the first place, so it would be as if you are adding an extra dead bug to the front of your car after arriving. Which would, of course, as adding extremes is, utterly pointless and without reason. If you want to use an example like that, at least do one that works.

[brunokiller]

You can have 95 pray without having done the quest to get curses.....and your cmb lvl will still be the same.

 

I wasn't aware that the Mahjarrat quest chain was challenging. I did it in a week of casual playing.

[Soma2035]

What allowing extremes would do is tossing yet another weight on the same side before trying to balance it; you'll find it's counterproductive.

 

By allowing extremes you punish those that didn't spend 150m on herblore. Spending 150m on prayer does not punish those because they are 6/7 combats lower.

 

I am discussing their use in PVP (read: not PVM) combat.

 

Yes, you are tossing another weight on the same side. No, it's not counter productive. With the scale analogy, Jagex does not know what weights are on each side (they do not know how much they need to do to actually balance everything). Chances are, if they choose to fix it, it'll be with a series of small updates, making changes one at a time. Similarly, they don't know the weight of extremes, because there's many factors to consider. How valuable is the Overload renewal effect? How powerful is the Special Restore potion? What styles of PKing will be popular in 2011, what styles will not? How do Extremes impact these styles? If you balance the scale first, then throw a mystery weight on one side, you get to start over. If you throw the weight on now and step back and take a look, the balancing process is only needed once.

 

By allowing Extremes you punish those that didn't train herblore. By allowing Ancient Curses you punish those that didn't train smithing and don't like doing quests. Again, stop comparing Herblore to Prayer. It's Herblore to non-combat and Quests, and Attack/Strength/Defense/Ranged to Prayer. Magic is sort of an oddball but irrelevant anyways since Summoning is no longer considered part of your combat level (although it is sort of shown), and can be used to get an equivalent boost anyways.

 

I wasn't aware that the Mahjarrat quest chain was challenging. I did it in a week of casual playing.

 

I wasn't aware making 150M was challenging, my bank just randomly accumulated over 100M in the past few months just with casual slaying and boss hunting. I wasn't aware that training herblore was challenging, my friend came back to RS less than a week ago with 60 herblore and he's already at 89 or 90. He was poor when he started, too.

 

What's challenging to you and what's not challenging to you is irrelevant, because you're not the standard. There isn't a standard. Unless the requirement is very, very extreme (low, such as level 3 attack, or high, such as 200M RC), the difference is purely from your standpoint. The principle remains intact - non-combat skills and features are providing an invisible combat benefit that requires combat skills to utilize.

[Danqazmlp]

You can have 95 pray without having done the quest to get curses.....and your cmb lvl will still be the same.

 

I wasn't aware that the Mahjarrat quest chain was challenging. I did it in a week of casual playing.

 

It also doesn't matter if you have or don't have it, it is the potential to have it that is shown in your combat level. You may be at 128 combat, but you don't have x strength level, you just have the potential to have it.

[SirIzenhime]

giving the chaos elemental pvp armor drops isn't going to suddenly make it worth doing......

chances are the drops are going to be very rare.

Also, the chaos elemental is in multi combat..in the deepest part of the wilderness....far away from any safe teleport out.

 

No one is going to effectively kill the chaos elemental after this update, unless they're a clan together. And even then, they'll be in d hide and whips at best.

 

There are better places to kill hell hounds and greaters demons then in the wilderness, people will simply move if they want to use extremes to kill them (heck, most people with extremes already have access to better areas, such as Kuradals and resource dungeons).

[Pay_Me]

If you can use supers why not extremes?

 

maybe i'm missing something

 

Why am i being punished for raising my herblore level

 

As it they have not bee allowed in PVP anyway (The two days honestly do not count) There is no punishment. If you trained those levels, you would have known you could not use them in PVP. Nothing is changing, that is what people are arguing for. The wilderness needs fixing, not being made worse.

 

Please explain me why introducing another imbalanced item is the right thing to do while Jagex tries to balance pvp.

 

That's creating problems because you want to fix problems.

 

It's the same as having a broken windshield and then smashing up the other windows, because they're going to fix it anyways.

 

Wrong analogy....taking extremes out of pvp is like driving across the country 10 time. Then picking one bug off the front bumper of the car and saying its clean.

 

Sorry but that example just doesn't work. First off, the 'bug' which I guess you relate to extremes was never there in the first place, so it would be as if you are adding an extra dead bug to the front of your car after arriving. Which would, of course, as adding extremes is, utterly pointless and without reason. If you want to use an example like that, at least do one that works.

 

 

Since it was there for one day.....it is actually like the bug fell off the bumper on the 2nd trip across the country then now on trip 10 it is revived and could get smashed on there good this time.

[xpx]

Most people who invested in herblore knew that they wouldn't work on PvP worlds. They did not know there was any chance of the Wilderness coming back. In fact, Jagex explicitly stated multiple times on RSOF that the Wilderness was never coming back. Why was there any reason to believe that suddenly there would be a day where I could no longer slay Hellhounds in the Wilderness using Extremes? Or Greater Demons, or anything else out there? The Wilderness has been a PvM place for three years now, with no warning until a vague message in MMG's clan chat within the past couple months that the wilderness may become PvP again.

 

The only boss that suffers is unpopular because it has a bad drop table. Guess what this update was going to change? That's right, the drop table of that one boss.

 

In either case, this is rather ridiculous. If you say there's no reason, I mention PvM is a reason, and you go "OMG YOU WANT A PVM HEAVEN YOU'RE STUPID LOLOL." That's not the case at all.

 

There are multiple reasons to bring Extremes into the Wilderness. Proper balance is one of them - if we believe Jagex actually WANTS to achieve proper balance, then it's best if everything's in the picture now instead of fixing it, throwing it out of the loop, and fixing it again. Fairness is another - you still have not explained where my comparison of Ancient Curses and Herblore is wrong - both of them are non-combat, both of them require combat levels to benefit from them, neither of them are actually shown in your combat level, but the actual level of benefit is dependent on a combat skill which IS usually shown.

You know your arguements of pvm are just complete bs and i'm not even going to argue for it. The wilderness is first and foremost a place for dangerous pvp, and every decision made will be made based on what is good for it.

 

Really, extremes allow a proper balance? balance in what? firstly, they are imbalanced in terms of combat level and risk, and secondly, they make the balance of DPS vs. LP dip over a scale of disastrous. If jagex wants the wilderness to have any sort of balance in the first place, they must remove at least some features, and extremes are a perfect example of where to start. If they, one day, decide to change things in that there would be a balance and herblore would become a combat skill, i'm happy to allow extremes, but until then, no. For fairness, you again talk about BS. Stats that are boosted are shown in your combat level, You effectively want them to be shown twice, or even three times. Prayer levels add to combat level, but herbore doesn't. End of story.

 

 

Also, when talking about the chaos elemental, maybe jagex are adding the new drops to balance the new lack of extremes? Take 1 away, add 1, you still get the same number. Nothing is broken.

[Danqazmlp]

Since it was there for one day.....it is actually like the bug fell off the bumper on the 2nd trip across the country then now on trip 10 it is revived and could get smashed on there good this time.

 

But would still, be utterly pointless to want. Thus, your example is one of the worst I have ever heard on this forum.

 

So, I ask, what are the pro's of adding extremes?

[Pete Party]

If you can use supers why not extremes?

 

maybe i'm missing something

 

 

Take 1 sip extreme and you can take lots of brew sips without having to pot extreme again.

Brews heal pretty good, thus mayor advantage.

Plus you can't see them if they are not used in your field of sight.