Extremes in New Wildy

[i_trollz_u]

1) So I assume it isn't isn't a problem of cost but rather one of risk, correct? In which case cheap, powerful items like Korasi's, dds, gmace/maul, rune crossbow/dbolts should be banned, right? A dbolt is cheaper than the herbs needed for an extreme set, and adds quite a lot of power/danger to the cheap crossbow.

Yes, whether those (mainly pointing at Korasi) items are correctly priced is another story, but you do risk them. Dragon(e) bolts are consumables and can be negated ENTIRELY.

 

2) How does that even matter? Obviously people get 95+ prayer for turmoil, but then again people get 94 magic for vengeance (that takes quite a long time), which you can't see either (and is very similar in quest needed, great potential to alter a fight etc.).

Obviously magic and range levels are incorrectly displayed but the difference is that they are combat skills. If you have an account with low strength/attack, it IS displayed.

 

I'm not arguing that extremes are overpowered or underpowered. I'm just saying that it isn't very consistent to allow one thing but not the other. It seems like extremes got picked out at random, which doesn't seem fair.

It seems rather consistent to me. Herblore itself has nothing to do with combat ability.

 

 

A radical solution like increasing lp per con level to 12-13 would be far better imo. It could even apply only in the wilderness.

There are two options:

1. You add extremes/ovls and to cancel (lol) their increased damage you increase the amount of LP one hp level gives

 

2. Do nothing.

 

First option looks kind of stupid to say the least..

1) You risk extreme potions. Not the level but you risk the potions (one overload ~= one dds). Also, extreme potions are consumables. I don't see how they are different to, say, Korasi's (besides being somewhat cheaper, you'll also use more (depending on your kill/death ratio I presume)). I'll agree that dbolts are tradeable and extremes are not, but Korasi's isn't. Neither is Zanik's crossbow (not sure how good it is tbh). However, the fact that something requires a level is equivalent to requiring a quest imo. If extremes required a quest to drink, would they be banned? (actually they require Druidic Ritual to be consumed :P)

 

2) Quests don't (only) require combat skills. Obviously the handcannon needs to be banned cause it requires firemaking to use. I don't have a fulll list, but it includes ghostly robes, many dragon items (scimitar included) etc. They all need to be banned as well IF you want all combat enhancers to depend on combat stats only. I don't.

 

3) Exactly because of extremes, herblore has something to do with combat abilty. Like quests. Quests have nothing to do with combat right? Well they do of course, loads of things we've mentioned.

 

4) You think it looks stupid, but I think it results in a pvp environment where people can use their account to the full extent. The options are different and 1. is more interesting. IMO.

 

Edit:

I get you think it might not be consistent with other things, but you still haven't shown any benefits it would give to pvp content if it was allowed, and only risks degrading it. There's pretty good reason for singling out these potions for being banned.

 

The benefit is consistency (which I like and some people might not care about, idk). Also, spec recovers make fights more interesting (imo). Since the problem is too high dps relative to max health, you can either drop dps or up health. I prefer the latter. Some people may not.

 

First, i don't see any reason why consistency matters. If the new potions are BROKEN and DESTROY PVP who gives a damn? Consistency doesn't make pvp better. I also don't see how pvp gets more interesting. New weapons, although sometimes borderline overpowered, is interesting. New armor is interesting. Being able to hit higher? Why? Do you get off from seeing high numbers or something? I don't exactly find higher hits constantly and ridiculous KOs interesting as much as i find them ridiculously overpowered and making it literally impossible for someone who doesn't have them to win. Weapons and items don't do that, a dds can still be used effectively against claws against korsais and still is.

 

Even if its not consistent, nothing of similar logic to the potions has as much of an impact on pvp as the potions do. None of your comparisons work because nothing in the game is of the same magnitude.

 

How are spec restores interesting? You realize someone with boost potion share/energy transfer could essentially give someone near constant dds specs right? The person won't even be able to run or say "aid off" before he gets freaking KOd. Also, i'd rather not see someone get two tries with a d bow to KO someone, especially with extreme ranging. Your definition of interesting turns into broken.

[Soma2035]

First of all, odd prayer levels are NEVER represented in combat. 96 Prayer and 98 Summoning make 138 CB (with maxed other stats), but 95 Prayer and 99 Summoning do not, because odd levels are simply dropped. In other words, CB-wise, it's impossible to tell if someone's 94 Prayer or 95 Prayer, because they'd have the same CB.

 

But 70-94 prayer is quite a difference (6 combat levels). THAT is why it is represented in your combat level.

 

But 94-95 prayer is the difference between no turmoil and turmoil, which is the point.

 

Player 1 and Player 2 have the same Attack, Strength, Defense, Magic, Ranged, Constitution, and Summoning. One of them has 94 prayer, one of them has 95. Both of them have done the quest, therefore one has Turmoil, the other does not. There is no way to tell which is which looking at combat levels. Even if you could look at fractions of combat levels, there is no difference, because the prayer level that sets no turmoil and turmoil apart is completely dropped. It doesn't exist as far as the combat formula is concerned, only even-numbered prayer and summoning levels do.

 

Until this single prayer level that turns no turmoil into turmoil is shown, it is the same as Extremes - combat level has no indication of it.

 

"95 prayer will NEVER have an effect on your combat level over 94 prayer" I don't quite understand what you're trying to say there.

 

The combat level formula ignores all odd summoning and prayer levels. Basically, for every 2 levels of prayer or summoning, your combat increase by 0.25 (or the whereabouts, not sure of the exact number), which results in 8 levels equating to one combat level. However, 1 level of prayer does not increase your combat by 0.125. It simply has no effect unless you add a second level of prayer. You can not even combine it with a level of summoning - 95 prayer and 99 summoning with maxed other stats yields 137 CB, while 96 prayer and 98 summoning yields 138 CB. Odd prayer levels do not factor into your combat level in any way, so you can NEVER notice the gap between no-turmoil (94) and turmoil (95) by looking at their combat level, even if you could see fractions of a level.

[Quyneax]

It won't break pvp. Consistency makes pvp better. Being able to hit higher is offset by higher lp. You're bringing in a lot of opinions, but no counterarguments, as my original statement wasn't an argument anyway (just another opinion).

 

I think you are overestimating the power of extremes here... overload usually isn't viable (leaves you very vulnerable to KOs while using, so you'd have to hop into a (semi-)safe zone every 5 mins to repot) and even if you could use them, that'd only make it more interesting imo (overload isn't god mode or anything). Again, imo. Spec restores are interesting because they allow certain combos (e.g. dscim > claws) without a ring of vigour, or something like ks > ks. IMO specials are a more interesting part of combat, hence it'd be a shame to lose them, hence my suggestion of higher lp. Double ks specs on 1200 lp (brews healing ~190), is that more dangerous than single ks specs on 1000 lp? Of course, a bit. However double claw specs would be quite a bit less dangerous.

 

Going to sleep now, g'night.

[Bloodstain]

Lol I like how all options in the poll except yes are worded so it makes the person voting look bad

[ghjkl]

ok what's another reason why extremes should be banned that the poll did not address

[Bloodstain]

ok what's another reason why extremes should be banned that the poll did not address

 

Is there something you aren't understanding?

 

Lol I like how all options in the poll except yes are worded so it makes the person voting look bad

[Triquos]

The poll (in my opinion) should be:

 

Should extreme potions be allowed in the Wilderness?

 

Yes

No

Don't mind

I am undecided on this

 

Personally the extremes in wildy thing doesn't effect me because I don't PK. I'm pretty undecided on this because we've had new armour, weapons, potions and many other things since the wilderness was removed, so either way there will be many things which will be new to PK'ing. To me, extreme potions would be kind of overpowering in the wildy, but you could say the same thing about Torva giving the player a lot more health. I do agree though that PK'ers should not have to level up a non combat skill in order to be better at hitting higher etc. so I'm 50/50 on this and still undecided about my decision unfortunately :-/

[GuidesForScapers]

But 94-95 prayer is the difference between no turmoil and turmoil, which is the point.

No, it isn't the point. You have distorted the topic so much that you are now claiming that gaining Turmoil as 0 effect on your combat level, when actually... In REALITY it does.

 

To achieve turmoil you have to gain 6/7 combat levels, the lack of a combat level gained in 94-95 is completely redundant. You still need to gain several combat levels to get to 94. Not gaining a level for the last level needed has nothing to do with this thread, it is just a bad attempt at justifying why extremes are just as fair as turmoil. They are not.

[magekillr]

ok what's another reason why extremes should be banned that the poll did not address

 

His point, and mine, is that the poll is worded so as to be a push-poll:

 

A push poll is a political campaign technique in which an individual or organization attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a poll.

 

It might be closer to a strawman, but either way, it does not represent the opposing viewpoints accurately whatsoever.

 

Anyway, I'm combat 84 with 86 hitpoints, I can make extremes, and I don't think they should be allowed. Jagex's rationale is quite frankly stupid, but the main reason for opposing is simply the amount of damage one can do now. Imo when they came out with new weapons they shouldn't have made them so damn overpowered, they should have figured out a way to make it so other weapons are being used. Obviously the biggest step towards this was adding speed which came from RSC to RS2, but this LP armor is useless, just as I figured it would be when it came out. They shouldn't have added LP armor at all, but should have added enchantments or something. No one is going to risk that armor in the wild; no one. I can wear rune armor and hit 340's with just super sets and prayer. With extremes I could hit 360's. Unless I'm fighting a 1 defer, it's very likely that I'll be two-hitting people. That's just boring. Pking and staking are the only reasons I play this game, and have played it since its inception in 2001. That's what makes it unique. They already ruined it once by taking it away, and I'd really rather them not ruin it by allowing [cabbage] that can two hit people.

 

How about life leaching weapons or something? Then I'd be willing to listen to the argument about extremes.

 

On the flip side, I'm not opposed to allowing the super prayer restore potions in the wild. I think that'd be fair to allow.

[Soma2035]

But 94-95 prayer is the difference between no turmoil and turmoil, which is the point.

No, it isn't the point. You have distorted the topic so much that you are now claiming that gaining Turmoil as 0 effect on your combat level, when actually... In REALITY it does.

 

To achieve turmoil you have to gain 6/7 combat levels, the lack of a combat level gained in 94-95 is completely redundant. You still need to gain several combat levels to get to 94. Not gaining a level for the last level needed has nothing to do with this thread, it is just a bad attempt at justifying why extremes are just as fair as turmoil. They are not.

 

Are you telling me there's no one that's 94 prayer? Go look at the high scores, then come try this again.

 

There are people with 94 prayer out there, and those people do not have Turmoil. If they gain a level, they could potentially have turmoil. There is no combat level increase to represent this change. That is not a distortion of this topic in any way. People with 94 prayer exist just like people with 70 herblore exist. Getting Turmoil has no more of a combat effect than getting Overloads. I fail to see any distortion whatsoever.

[demby123]

On the flip side, I'm not opposed to allowing the super prayer restore potions in the wild. I think that'd be fair to allow.

I think super prayers are allowed into pvp.

[magekillr]

On the flip side, I'm not opposed to allowing the super prayer restore potions in the wild. I think that'd be fair to allow.

I think super prayers are allowed into pvp.

 

Interesting. What about restore specials? Either way, if they're already allowed, it kind of blows a huge hole in Jagex's "but you can't see it!" theory.

[Amp]

But 94-95 prayer is the difference between no turmoil and turmoil, which is the point.

No, it isn't the point. You have distorted the topic so much that you are now claiming that gaining Turmoil as 0 effect on your combat level, when actually... In REALITY it does.

 

To achieve turmoil you have to gain 6/7 combat levels, the lack of a combat level gained in 94-95 is completely redundant. You still need to gain several combat levels to get to 94. Not gaining a level for the last level needed has nothing to do with this thread, it is just a bad attempt at justifying why extremes are just as fair as turmoil. They are not.

 

Are you telling me there's no one that's 94 prayer? Go look at the high scores, then come try this again.

 

There are people with 94 prayer out there, and those people do not have Turmoil. If they gain a level, they could potentially have turmoil. There is no combat level increase to represent this change. That is not a distortion of this topic in any way. People with 94 prayer exist just like people with 70 herblore exist. Getting Turmoil has no more of a combat effect than getting Overloads. I fail to see any distortion whatsoever.

 

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

[Soma2035]

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

 

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

[Amp]

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

 

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

 

The fact that he gained levels in the process of getting 94 Prayer. It doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not.

[Soma2035]

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

 

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

 

The fact that he the gained levels in the process of getting 94 Prayer. It doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not.

 

What do you mean it doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not? That's a 10% strength difference in high level PvP. And the levels he gained in the process of getting 94 Prayer are there to represent 94 prayer - the prayer points, the increased benefit from prayer restoring items, and the access to the prayers and items up to level 94.

[All_Is_Great]

Wait a minute, what are you guys even arguing about?

 

That prayer should give combat levels...? Oh wait....

 

That turmoil should be banned? Huh? :???:

[Cheefoo]

-69 prayer versus 70 prayer

-no piety versus piety

-no difference in combat level

-it requires a quest

-ban piety

 

-59 attack versus 60 attack

-no dragon scimitar versus dragon scimitar

-no difference in combat level

-it requires a quest

-ban dragon scimitar

 

-94 prayer versus 95 prayer

-no turmoil versus turmoil

-no difference in combat level

-it requires a quest

-ban turmoil

 

hurrrrrr

[i_trollz_u]

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

 

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

 

The fact that he the gained levels in the process of getting 94 Prayer. It doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not.

 

What do you mean it doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not? That's a 10% strength difference in high level PvP. And the levels he gained in the process of getting 94 Prayer are there to represent 94 prayer - the prayer points, the increased benefit from prayer restoring items, and the access to the prayers and items up to level 94.

 

I seriously do not understand the point of this argument. So there's a jump in pking power from 94-95 pray. Ok? There's a jump in being able to wield claws at 60 vs 59, gs at 75 v74....not sure what your point is, or how this relates to extremes. You obviously gain CB lvls with prayer, even though you don't gain a level in that one instance, the CB system never showed every single lvl in any CB skill. There was probably a difference having 93 mage and 94 mage too. Prayer functions just like any other Cb skill. I don't really think you can argue that herblore is the same, considering you don't gain any cb lvls at any herblore lvl.

[All_Is_Great]

^EXACTLY. Herblore is not a combat skill. Therefore I don't think it should be vital to ensure success when PKing.

[PereGrin]

On the flip side, I'm not opposed to allowing the super prayer restore potions in the wild. I think that'd be fair to allow.

I think super prayers are allowed into pvp.

 

Interesting. What about restore specials? Either way, if they're already allowed, it kind of blows a huge hole in Jagex's "but you can't see it!" theory.

Super prayers and Super antifires are usable on PVP/BH worlds. No spec recover or extreme/ovls though.

[i_trollz_u]

^EXACTLY. Herblore is not a combat skill. Therefore I don't think it should be vital to ensure success when PKing.

 

 

But of course they respond with "but quests require non cb skills too!!!!"

 

and because this response is inevitable and no one reads previous answers, the answer to that is simply

 

1. There's a pretty big difference between the 33 wc and craft requirements for a dds and long, vs 96 herblore. Yes, obviously they both are non cb skills and it probably isn't 100% consistent. Seriously? Nothing is comparable to these pots, because the magnitude on both the consequences and the requirement far exceeds anything pvp has ever had before. Neither Korsai's, barrel chest anchor, or the dds was as bad as this. No consistency argument here.

 

2. Why does it matter if some other low lvl skill requirements are used? DDS and d skimmy = good for pvp. The potions =/= good for pvp. Simple as that, no reason why consistency is even a reason to allow pots.

[Cheefoo]

But of course they respond with "but quests require non cb skills too!!!!"

 

and because this response is inevitable and no one reads previous answers, the answer to that is simply

 

1. There's a pretty big difference between the 33 wc and craft requirements for a dds and long, vs 96 herblore. Yes, obviously they both are non cb skills and it probably isn't 100% consistent. Seriously? Nothing is comparable to these pots, because the magnitude on both the consequences and the requirement far exceeds anything pvp has ever required before. No consistency argument here.

 

Not to mention you can actually see these quest items, so you know what you're up against. That's really the whole point of combat levels, etc. Imagine if everyone had invisible armor and weapons, and hidden combat levels. That's what allowing elite level untradable herblore potions to PvP would be like.

[Soma2035]

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

 

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

 

The fact that he the gained levels in the process of getting 94 Prayer. It doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not.

 

What do you mean it doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not? That's a 10% strength difference in high level PvP. And the levels he gained in the process of getting 94 Prayer are there to represent 94 prayer - the prayer points, the increased benefit from prayer restoring items, and the access to the prayers and items up to level 94.

 

I seriously do not understand the point of this argument. So there's a jump in pking power from 94-95 pray. Ok? There's a jump in being able to wield claws at 60 vs 59, gs at 75 v74....not sure what your point is, or how this relates to extremes. You obviously gain CB lvls with prayer, even though you don't gain a level in that one instance, the CB system never showed every single lvl in any CB skill. There was probably a difference having 93 mage and 94 mage too. Prayer functions just like any other Cb skill. I don't really think you can argue that herblore is the same, considering you don't gain any cb lvls at any herblore lvl.

 

When you go from 59 to 60 attack, your combat goes up. Not by a full level, obviously, but by a fraction of one that will combine with your other skills to make combat levels. When you go from 94 to 95 prayer, your combat does NOT go up. You do NOT gain a fraction of a prayer level. The combat formula disregards that level entirely.

 

Secondly, 95 prayer is not the only requirement of Turmoil. There's a quest series involved, which includes a smithing requirement.

 

The level requirement doesn't matter because it's the principle involved - a non-combat skill that has no representation in your combat level and quest completion that has no representation in your combat level is offering up to 10% more strength.

 

Finally, Extremes DO require combat levels in the sense Ancient Curses do.

 

Let's put them side-by-side. If you have Ancient Curses, they don't do anything for you until you have prayer. At level 50, you'll get the ability to use Protect Item and Sap Warrior. At 52, you'll get Sap Ranger. So on, and so on.

 

Similarly, if you have Extreme Attack Potions, they don't do anything for you until you have Attack levels. With level 1 attack, you'll get +5 Strength from a Super, and +5 Strength from an Extreme. No difference whatsoever. At level 16 Attack, you'll get +1 from Extreme Attack that you wouldn't get from Super Attack. At level 30, you'll get +2 from Extreme Attack that you wouldn't get from Super Attack.

 

See? You unlock the ability, be it Extreme potions or Ancient Curses, through non-combat skills (and in the case of Ancient Curses, quests). The benefit has graduated requirements for the benefits.

 

1. There's a pretty big difference between the 33 wc and craft requirements for a dds and long, vs 96 herblore.

 

Oh really? What is this difference then? Besides "waah 96 herblore is hard"?

 

Lots of people find 96 Herblore very easy. I did. One of my friends who just came back to RS did. Lots of people who power to it to join good monster hunting clans think it is.

 

Similarily, lots of people find 70 Smithing very hard. Again, I did. It seemed forever away when Devious Minds came out, and it took a lot of work for me to get there, and it was rather daunting.

 

Different levels have different difficulty levels for different people. Therefore the actual quantity is irrelevant (unless it's a token amount, like, 3 attack, which anyone can get within about 10 minutes of playing without even knowing how to play, or an absurd amount, like 200m runecrafting experience, which most Runescape players can not be expected to get). What matters is the principle, and here, it is the fact that either non-combat levels SHOULD affect combat, or they should NOT.

[All_Is_Great]

And you know, they are banned already.

 

Saying "oh you want the old wild back, then you should take everything nasty that comes with it" is not really relevant, well, because extremes didn't exist in the old wild.

 

Or the "oh so you pkers can have what you want, but skillers can't force extremes down your throat". It's not like PKers don't have extremes. Sure the low level pures/ temporary fun accounts might not, but people who have played a long time and find pking as their time"waster" will probably have 85 herblore or higher to pot for extremes/ovls. Imagine all those newbies doing clues/hunting penguins now. "OMG I got claw specced in 1 hit! How is that possible!!!" "Uh, extremes maybe!" "Well they should be banned!" :wall:

 

Let's just say less problems will arise if it's just kept the way it is now, regarding extreme/overload potions. Why fix something that's not broke eh? Isn't that what you guys all like to say? Well now they aren't "fixing" it, and look at all the ranting :rolleyes:

 

EDIT: Just read the above post. What are you saying? The only requirements for ancient curses are noncombat quest related levels? lolwut? How about the actual prayer level required to use it. D'oh! You don't unlock both extremes and curses through non-combat. Because if you did Senntisten, but had like 50 prayer, you still won't be able to do anything. And I have no idea what the point of that argument is.