Extremes in New Wildy

[SirIzenhime]

that's the answer I was referring to, if you interpret it some other way, you're simply looking for holes to argue through. Stop it.

I wasn't talking about super prayer and anti-fires, Or spec restores for that matter (although those are op if you ask me)

If overloads do work, it will be seen as a glitch, and be quickly fixed considering Pvp seems to be a high priority for Jagex...if there's a glitch with it, they fix that crap asap.

[zotto]

Food is tradeable.

 

Baron sharks aren't.

[Soma2035]

Umm... sorry to burst your bubble, but "who enters the wilderness with the boost will be restored to 'super' level". Corp lair isn't wilderness, stepping out will equal "entering the wilderness". Sure bound to be bugs in the first few days though, no doubt about that.

 

Anyways, I've completely lost track of your points because they seem to change alot. But I guess it all boils down to "I got extremes so I can use them in the wild to PvM". But hey you know what? Many players, 3 years ago, trained their levels to PK for a living. Guess what happened to that? *Poof!* All I can say is, there are much better options outside the wilderness to use extremes, and I honestly think you (and the rest of you lot) are overreacting to this.

 

I didn't say duck into the Corp Lair to use Extreme Attack Potions, I said duck in to drink Special Restores, didn't I? If that wasn't perfectly clear, I apologize. And uhm... bugs in the first few days? I think the Overload and Dungeoneering "bug" has been around for more than a few days.

 

My point has always been the same. The rest of my arguments are responses to other people's points, and my reasoning.

 

My point is that we already allow factors that do not influence combat level, such as quest completion and non-combat skill levels, to influence PvP in PvP and BH worlds, so with the aim of overall fairness, there's no reason to deprive one group of players their non-combat related benefits, especially when existing benefits already outweigh them.

 

Saying that it'll make PvP too deadly isn't an excuse, since Turmoil is deadlier than Extremes (with regards to melee, anyways, which is generally the deadliest.) Saying it's invisible isn't an excuse, since the presence of Turmoil, and heck, the presence of the last critical prayer level, is invisible, as well as the non-combat requirements attached to it. Saying Turmoil requires prayer isn't an excuse, because the formulas for Extreme Potions offer graduated benefits, just like Ancient Curses do, and these bonuses start at an absolute flat zero, meaning you essentially require combat levels for Extreme potions to be of use.

 

At least within the scope of melee combat, there is no reason to ban Extremes and not Turmoil, and doing so is unfair to those who invested in one and not the other (or both). More importantly, you are changing up the rules on Extremes by adding more restrictions to what has essentially been a PvM area ever since Extremes have been released.

 

These "points" are just my rational for disagreeing with the common arguments against allowing them. My actual point though, is still the same as before - it's really not fair to ban just extremes when several other features that are permissible share the same characteristics (besides difficulty, which is really an arbitrary thing and varies from person to person, especially when neither case is really an extreme). Also, I'd like to mention that my original argument wasn't that Extremes should be allowed as they are. If you scroll back to the first (or maybe second?) page of the topic, I also stated that I find it to be poor game design to force players to train a skill they may dislike to high levels only to compete, and that there always should be some alternatives.

[Soma2035]

that's the answer I was referring to, if you interpret it some other way, you're simply looking for holes to argue through. Stop it.

I wasn't talking about super prayer and anti-fires, Or spec restores for that matter (although those are op if you ask me)

If overloads do work, it will be seen as a glitch, and be quickly fixed considering Pvp seems to be a high priority for Jagex...if there's a glitch with it, they fix that crap asap.

 

How am I looking for a whole to argue through? I honestly don't think the quote is very clear, and judging by Jagex's unwillingness to continually answer questions and offer more details, it's not going to be clarified.

 

Overloads continually boosting you to 118/99 is certainly within the scope of what they've said. After all, it's still bringing you to the normal cap, isn't it? And Special Restores are honestly a bigger concern to me than the Extreme Attack/Strength/Defense/Magic/Ranged potions. Like I mentioned earlier in this topic, +7 skill boost is nice but not exactly huge. On the other hand, Special Restores are amazing in PvM, yet when the update originally came out, Jagex specifically re-tooled some special attacks so it wouldn't be broken in PvP. The Ring of Vigour throws a little wrench in that, but that goes back to the whole "risked benefit" doesn't it?

 

I'm sorry if you misconstrued me when I used the terms Extreme Potion to refer to either the actual extreme potions, or the group of untradeable potions as a whole differently. I really should've worded that better.

 

And... I don't know. I was big on PvP a long time ago, and they left a lot of glitches for a very, very long time. Recently they cater to the PvPers pretty well, but Overloads have always been an oddball with so many unintended side-effects that I really don't know what will go wrong with them, and how long it will take Jagex to correct them. And I still think that considering all the feed-back Jagex has gotten, they may re-consider.

 

EDIT: Huh. I forgot about the Juju gumbos and the Baron Sharks entirely. I wonder if Jagex has even considered those. :mellow:

[xpx]

Basically, what this thread boils down to is two communities and one odd person. One community has worked for ovl/extremes and wants the benefits of them in the wilderness, the other community has or hasn't worked for ovl/extremes but doesn't see them being good for the wilderness, and the one odd person argues every stupid line just because and thinks the wilderness should be a pvm heaven.

 

What i don't understand, is how people don't understand the negative effects the potions would bring- firstly, they aren't reflected in ones combat level, so pking without them would be pointless. The wilderness would effectively be excluded for those who have extremes, which isn't good for anyone(less people). Secondly, as we have evidenced for a few years now and jagex has just recently, the amount of lp and healing doesn't match the DPS modern weapons are designed to bring. For the large majority of the items that are responsible for the extreme DPS, they are balanced in terms of risk or higher combat level, but the potions are in no way balanced while offering a significant boost to DPS. Thus, as a way of keeping the balance, until we have something that can balance the added DPS out, the potions should be kept out of the wilderness. 2-hit rushing is already bad enough, do we really want to walk around the wilderness with prayers on constantly, because getting 2 hit is more than easy?

 

And yes, i'm aware that there is one person who will cry about not being able to have fun at chaos elemental just because his beloved potions are disallowed, but sometimes, tough sacrifices have to be made for the good of many, instead of a few.

[Hajutze]

The way I see it .. the only fair way to ban the Extreme/ovl potions from wildy is if they ban ALL potions (except anti-poison may be?) from the wilderness <_<

[xpx]

The way I see it .. the only fair way to ban the Extreme/ovl potions from wildy is if they ban ALL potions (except anti-poison may be?) from the wilderness <_<

We don't need fair, we need balanced.

[Hajutze]

The way I see it .. the only fair way to ban the Extreme/ovl potions from wildy is if they ban ALL potions (except anti-poison may be?) from the wilderness <_<

We don't need fair, we need balanced.

I assume that lower DPS is a good thing o.O

[xpx]

The way I see it .. the only fair way to ban the Extreme/ovl potions from wildy is if they ban ALL potions (except anti-poison may be?) from the wilderness <_<

We don't need fair, we need balanced.

I assume that lower DPS is a good thing o.O

It's not really that easy. If there were no 1 or 2 hit spec weapons and chaotic weapons, extremes would be fine in the wilderness. If we had armor that would absorb significant damage, or cheap armor that would add lp, the balance would, again, be there. But the fact is, with current balanced items out there(items balanced by risk and and combat/quest requirements), extremes would be absolutely lethal to the balance. If we, one day, have extremes allowed in the wilderness, they should absolutely be balanced by adding to combat level.

[Soma2035]

Basically, what this thread boils down to is two communities and one odd person. One community has worked for ovl/extremes and wants the benefits of them in the wilderness, the other community has or hasn't worked for ovl/extremes but doesn't see them being good for the wilderness, and the one odd person argues every stupid line just because and thinks the wilderness should be a pvm heaven.

 

Where did I ever imply that the Wilderness should be a PvM heaven?

 

Seriously, try reading before responding. What I said was, the Wilderness has always encouraged PvM, by offering people benefits they can not find elsewhere, ranging from exclusive monsters to better locations.

 

Also, are you honestly pretending I'm the only person who kills Green Dragons? Because I'd like to point out, I don't personally kill Green Dragons, and the only reason I even know of Green Dragons is the sheer amount of people who complained to me about Green Dragon bots back in the day. Bots which Jagex promised to remove (whether they succeed is a separate question but we may as well give them the benefit of doubt as it is their game).

 

The wilderness has always invited a combination of PvM and PvP. If something has minor imbalances to PvP - imbalances that already exist in the system - but benefits PvM significantly (especially when you consider that encouraging PvM in the wilderness also produces more targets for PvP), then I think it's rather odd to suddenly turn against principles we have accepted.

 

The only reason I bring up PvM at all is that people say things like "oh there's no benefit to Extremes in the Wilderness." Go on, scroll back to the first time I brought up PvM in the Wildernes. Notice that it's AFTER someone said that there's no point to have Extremes in the Wilderness, which is definitely false.

 

Stop putting words in my mouth. My point is that banning the untradeable potions on the grounds of "it's too powerful" or "it uses a non-combat skill" is nonsensical. PvM is only relevant in that there is a purpose for Extremes in the Wilderness beyond just making players deadlier.

 

It's not really that easy. If there were no 1 or 2 hit spec weapons and chaotic weapons, extremes would be fine in the wilderness. If we had armor that would absorb significant damage, or cheap armor that would add lp, the balance would, again, be there. But the fact is, with current balanced items out there(items balanced by risk and and combat/quest requirements), extremes would be absolutely lethal to the balance. If we, one day, have extremes allowed in the wilderness, they should absolutely be balanced by adding to combat level.

 

Again, if you think that the combination is too strong, why is it the potions that should take the hit? Why shouldn't it be prayer instead? Or Chaotics? Or special attacks?

 

The easy way isn't necessarily the right way. Just because "keep doing what we've done with herblore" would fix the problem (which it doesn't, since the effect extremes have is already small) doesn't mean it's a good solution, because you're giving the shaft to a lot of players for no actual reason besides "this is sort of how we've done it for the past couple years," instead of looking at the problem closely and coming up with the best solution.

 

We don't need fair, we need balanced.

 

What we have is neither fair nor balanced. PvP is already an offense versus defense disaster, and the presence of Extremes would have very little impact on it.

[Logdotzip]

The way I see it .. the only fair way to ban the Extreme/ovl potions from wildy is if they ban ALL potions (except anti-poison may be?) from the wilderness <_<

We don't need fair, we need balanced.

 

Fox news'd

[Hajutze]

They can always follow the protection prayers example ... In other words while fighting another player your maximum damage is reduced by 25% or something like that (thus there will be no need to limit anything in the wilderness ... I really dont see the point to ban something from ... somewhere when there are other solutions to the problem).

 

But considering the fact that all my past "suggestions" were ... bad (?) I'll assume that this one sucks as well so ... just pretend that this post doesn't exist.

[xpx]

I think it's VERY stupid to even begin to compare the pvm and pvp capabilities in the wilderness. The wilderness is the only dangerous pvp area, while the monsters in the wilderness are very insignificant(most are in other places aswell, like green dragons) and the only boss that would suffer is the chaos elemental, which is a very unpopular and low level boss anyway. It's easy to state that the wilderness is pvp first and foremost, with pvm being slightly relevant. Thus, decisions upon the wilderness should be pvp based, and that's what people here are doing. The fact that you want to blow up smoke and make pvm in the wilderness important is already stupid enough, making decisions based upon it is even worse.

 

If you personally don't like the solution, too bad, but it's clear to see the benefits for a large amount of people will have because of how jagex decided it was going to be(wilderness isn't excluded to high herblore, herblore doesn't have to affect combat level, there is a balance between dps and lp in the wilderness).

[Hajutze]

If you personally don't like the solution, too bad, but it's clear to see the benefits for a large amount of people will have because of how jagex decided it was going to be(wilderness isn't excluded to high herblore, herblore doesn't have to affect combat level, there is a balance between dps and lp in the wilderness).

You still haven't answered to my first question, if they want to ban extremes, why don't they ban ALL potions ? The outcome will be even better.

[brunokiller]

If you personally don't like the solution, too bad, but it's clear to see the benefits for a large amount of people will have because of how jagex decided it was going to be(wilderness isn't excluded to high herblore, herblore doesn't have to affect combat level, there is a balance between dps and lp in the wilderness).

You still haven't answered to my first question, if they want to ban extremes, why don't they ban ALL potions ? The outcome will be even better.

Everyone can use super potions (they are tradable)

Only those with 85+ herblore (read 80m poorer) can use extremes.

 

As such, supers are fair while extremes are not.

 

I'm tired of skillers begging for extremes in pvp so they can kill people.

[Hajutze]

I'm tired of skillers begging for extremes in pvp so they can kill people.

I'm tired of pkers begging for extremes to be banned because they are afraid to die to skillers. You see what I did there ?

[brunokiller]

yes because pkers want fun/skilled fights where the best wins instead of the first that clicks his spec bar.

[Riemis]

yes because pkers want fun/skilled fights where the best wins instead of the first that clicks his spec bar.

It's funny because a year ago you were spamming the picture thread with your rushing gifs.

[GuidesForScapers]

What? Just because getting 95 Prayer does not DIRECTLY lead into the player gaining a Combat level doesn't mean it is not represented...

 

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

Lets face the facts here, you are stupid. If you HONESTLY believe that is a valid point, i feel sorry for you.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Extremes should be allowed; but only if Herblore becomes a combat skill...

[oropher]

yes because pkers want fun/skilled fights where the best wins instead of the first that clicks his spec bar.

 

I don't think anything will change with extremes then, for the past few years it has always been about lucky specs or lucky combos. That's the only way to win a fight in rs anyway? All you can do is wait for a few lucky hits from either your main weapon or your spec weapon. There is no skill in edge pking, and very little in hybridding.

 

Extremes should be allowed.

 

Max hit for someone edge pking with extremes: 548

Max hit for someone edge pking without extremes: 520

(rapier/rune legs and plate/dragon defender/dragon boots/strenght ammy/neitiznot)

 

That's not even 30 lifepoints higher.

 

Also, the best food available in runescape are juju gumbos and baron sharks. I know they're slow to get and considered to be not worth it, but isn't that why so many pkers don't have extremes to start with?

If you work for something you should get the advantage.

[Crossed_Body]

Lets face the facts here, you are stupid. If you HONESTLY believe that is a valid point, i feel sorry for you.

Perfectly valid point according to Jagex's logic. Which didn't make any sense in the first place.

[xpx]

If you personally don't like the solution, too bad, but it's clear to see the benefits for a large amount of people will have because of how jagex decided it was going to be(wilderness isn't excluded to high herblore, herblore doesn't have to affect combat level, there is a balance between dps and lp in the wilderness).

You still haven't answered to my first question, if they want to ban extremes, why don't they ban ALL potions ? The outcome will be even better.

Do you understand the notion of a balanced system? without any potions, KO potential would be very low and the wilderness wouldn't be dangerous. As normal potions are accessible to everyone, they are balanced, and as they fit the balance of dps vs. lp very well, there is no reason to ban them. Also, if you ask why just extreme potions should be the exceptions, i honestly have no idea, but they fit the bill of unbalanced items VERY well, so are a good choice to make an exception for. As said, if they were allowed, herblore MUST become a combat skill(which wouldn't also go down with alot of people, but there is no good solution to the problem anyway).

[Crossed_Body]

Do you understand the notion of a balanced system? without any potions, KO potential would be very low and the wilderness wouldn't be dangerous. As normal potions are accessible to everyone, they are balanced, and as they fit the balance of dps vs. lp very well, there is no reason to ban them. Also, if you ask why just extreme potions should be the exceptions, i honestly have no idea, but they fit the bill of unbalanced items VERY well, so are a good choice to make an exception for. As said, if they were allowed, herblore MUST become a combat skill(which wouldn't also go down with alot of people, but there is no good solution to the problem anyway).

 

Extreme strength potion has a +20 damage advantage over a super strength potion. A 400 hit becomes 420. The difference from super to extreme potions is very little as it is, and the +20 increase in damage can very easily be canceled out by damage soaking.

[brunokiller]

I don't think anything will change with extremes then, for the past few years it has always been about lucky specs or lucky combos. That's the only way to win a fight in rs anyway? All you can do is wait for a few lucky hits from either your main weapon or your spec weapon. There is no skill in edge pking, and very little in hybridding.

 

I know i've said it a few dozen times already but:'That stuff is bad is not a reason to make it worse.'

 

Extremes should be allowed.

 

Max hit for someone edge pking with extremes: 548

Max hit for someone edge pking without extremes: 520

(rapier/rune legs and plate/dragon defender/dragon boots/strenght ammy/neitiznot)

 

That's not even 30 lifepoints higher.

+30 is a significant advantage (do also not forget using brews as food is an advantage), and 480-480 to 560-560 with dark bows as previously mentioned is a +160 damage boost.

 

 

Also, the best food available in runescape are juju gumbos and baron sharks. I know they're slow to get and considered to be not worth it, but isn't that why so many pkers don't have extremes to start with?

If you work for something you should get the advantage.

I dislike how you have to fork over 160m for something that is not represented in your combat level to be able to PK.