Extremes in New Wildy

[Hajutze]

Herblore costs around 25 gp/xp

Smithing costs around 10 gp/xp.

Um ... say what ?

Herblore can be profitable (cleaning Herbs)

Smithing can be profitable (um .. cannonballs ?)

Smithing can cost [cabbage]load of money as well

 

TBH I've made quite the load of cash with my 91 herblore ... it just depends on your ability to grind :lol:

[All_Is_Great]

Maybe if you've actually read what I've said instead of "OMG he disagrees he's wrong blargh," you would find logic in it.

You're saying attack is a "requirement" of ext. attacks and a representation of them in combat. Incorrect. You argue this based on the fact that there is no advantage from using extremes up to level 9? Okay then.

 

That settles it. There is your answer, everyone. Because players with 88 herblore and under 10 attack get no advantage from using extreme attack potions, they are fair to have in PvP.

 

Once again, thanks to Soma, /thread.

 

Isn't that exactly your case with Turmoil? "Oh you don't benefit unless you have prayer levels so it's fair to have in PvP."

 

Honestly, are you trying to mock the "See, you need CB levels to make it useful in PvP" argument? Because so far that's your ONLY argument as to why Turmoil should be allowed.

 

Yah, and that one argument about how prayer gives you combat levels, so it is somewhat reflected in a person's combat level far outweighs your arguments, which is you picking out the tiniest of connections between attack levels and smithing levels for quests or something.

[amitoz]

Maybe if you've actually read what I've said instead of "OMG he disagrees he's wrong blargh," you would find logic in it.

You're saying attack is a "requirement" of ext. attacks and a representation of them in combat. Incorrect. You argue this based on the fact that there is no advantage from using extremes up to level 9? Okay then.

 

That settles it. There is your answer, everyone. Because players with 88 herblore and under 10 attack get no advantage from using extreme attack potions, they are fair to have in PvP.

 

Once again, thanks to Soma, /thread.

 

Isn't that exactly your case with Turmoil? "Oh you don't benefit unless you have prayer levels so it's fair to have in PvP."

 

Honestly, are you trying to mock the "See, you need CB levels to make it useful in PvP" argument? Because so far that's your ONLY argument as to why Turmoil should be allowed.

 

Yah, and that one argument about how prayer gives you combat levels, so it is somewhat reflected in a person's combat level far outweighs your arguments, which is you picking out the tiniest of connections between attack levels and smithing levels for quests or something.

 

/thread

[GuidesForScapers]

Maybe if you've actually read what I've said instead of "OMG he disagrees he's wrong blargh," you would find logic in it.

You're saying attack is a "requirement" of ext. attacks and a representation of them in combat. Incorrect. You argue this based on the fact that there is no advantage from using extremes up to level 9? Okay then.

 

That settles it. There is your answer, everyone. Because players with 88 herblore and under 10 attack get no advantage from using extreme attack potions, they are fair to have in PvP.

 

Once again, thanks to Soma, /thread.

 

Isn't that exactly your case with Turmoil? "Oh you don't benefit unless you have prayer levels so it's fair to have in PvP."

 

Honestly, are you trying to mock the "See, you need CB levels to make it useful in PvP" argument? Because so far that's your ONLY argument as to why Turmoil should be allowed.

The difference is that Turmoil is a REQUIRED level. Not a required level for the maximum bonus. Having level 10 attack i would still have an advantage over someone else, and i bet that in a lot of situations people can get 9 -> 10 attack without gaining a combat level.

[Soma2035]

85 herblore and 60 smithing

 

85 herblore is 3m xp

 

60 smithing is 270k xp

 

Herblore costs around 25 gp/xp

 

Smithing costs around 10 gp/xp.

 

Can't help that you only have one braincell (why else would you ignore my argument then?).

 

I'm not ignoring it, I already answered it. It's a matter of opinion.

 

Let's break down the numbers. Say you're right, and that herblore costs 75 million while smithing costs 3 million.

 

Hate to break it to you, but that's not a very big difference. 25x is the difference between a Mithril and Rune Scimitar. Would you say getting a Rune Scimitar is very, very hard while getting a Mithril Scimitar is easy? Probably not. But I guarantee you there are players out there who can afford the Mithril and not the Rune. The situation hasn't changed just because you are 50M richer. Sure, 3M is small to you, while 75M is huge. But that is to YOU. There are players who find the 25K for a Rune Scimitar huge. And then there's players like me, who find them both rather small. I'm not rich - far from it. But 75M is honestly not very much, you can scrape more than that in a few weeks of casually doing what you like, if what you like happens to be even remotely profitable.

 

And then there's the players a step up from where I am, to whom a white party hat isn't huge. A White Partyhat is worth at least half my bank, yet they're ready to just give one away because they have a handful more as well as a nearly maxed cash pile and everything else they need.

 

This is why drawing an arbitrary line is stupid. "This is too hard, this is too easy." That comes purely from your perspective. First of all, how do we know you're representative of the typical Runescape player? Second of all, why should we cater to the typical Runescape player, when the typical Runescape player grows stronger and stronger? At one point, any 99 skill was insane. These days, they're commonplace. At one point, it was a HUMONGOUS deal when anyone made it to max stats. These days, we have hundreds (if not thousands) of people with maxed stats.

 

People change over time, and as they change, what looks hard and what looks easy changes too. Which is why I said, unless it's borderline negligible for everyone (3 attack) or incredibly over the top and into space for everyone (200M RC), it should be fair game. 96 Herblore looks hard now, but it might not be 5 years for now. 70 Smithing might look easy now, but it most certainly wasn't 5 years ago. And in either case, that's only from the "typical" stance, which excludes many players because Runescape players are very different.

 

Anyways, this is your only argument that actually has merit. I can understand the desire to draw a border, but until you have a quantifiable line and a fair way to determine where this line should be, I don't think it's fair to arbitrarily place one thing on one side of the line, and one thing on the other. I've got to go now though, so if you do have a fair answer to this, I'll read it then.

 

The difference is that Turmoil is a REQUIRED level. Not a required level for the maximum bonus. Having level 10 attack i would still have an advantage over someone else, and i bet that in a lot of situations people can get 9 -> 10 attack without gaining a combat level.

 

Right. Which is why Turmoil isn't your only reward, your reward is Ancient Curses. And you have required levels of 92 for Soul Split, 89 for Wrath, going all the way down to 50 for Sap WArrior.

 

And don't even start with the whole "you can get this level without gaining a combat level." Odd prayer levels NEVER give combat. Level 9 to level 10 Attack gives approximately .33 of a combat level, which will eventually show up in combination with other skills. Level 95 prayer from level 94 gives 0. Nothing. Nada. Because the combat level specifically removes ALL odd prayer and summoning levels, hence why 95 prayer and 99 summoning can not get you to level 138, but 96 prayer and 98 summoning can.

[GuidesForScapers]

The difference is that Turmoil is a REQUIRED level. Not a required level for the maximum bonus. Having level 10 attack i would still have an advantage over someone else, and i bet that in a lot of situations people can get 9 -> 10 attack without gaining a combat level.

 

Right. Which is why Turmoil isn't your only reward, your reward is Ancient Curses. And you have required levels of 92 for Soul Split, 89 for Wrath, going all the way down to 50 for Sap WArrior.

 

And don't even start with the whole "you can get this level without gaining a combat level." Odd prayer levels NEVER give combat. Level 9 to level 10 Attack gives approximately .33 of a combat level, which will eventually show up in combination with other skills. Level 95 prayer from level 94 gives 0. Nothing. Nada. Because the combat level specifically removes ALL odd prayer and summoning levels, hence why 95 prayer and 99 summoning can not get you to level 138, but 96 prayer and 98 summoning can.

 

I like how you disregard one side of an argument but feel free to use it yourself:

And don't even start with the whole "you can get this level without gaining a combat level."

Odd prayer levels NEVER give combat.

 

That .33 of a combat level could remain forever never gainin a combat level. Just because it is inconvenient for your argument doesn't make it an impossibility/redundent.

 

Right. Which is why Turmoil isn't your only reward, your reward is Ancient Curses. And you have required levels of 92 for Soul Split, 89 for Wrath, going all the way down to 50 for Sap WArrior.

 

Extra boosts of extreme potions and the ability to make the aren't the sole reward for attack and herblore. Soul split, wrath and sap warrior are represented in combat directly anyway.

 

There is 0 representation of extremes in your combat. Attack, yes. Extremes, no. Just because i have 99 attack doesn't mean i have extremes, so how are they represented in combat? They aren't.

[Quyneax]

Loads of things are not represented in combat levels, such as gear. Doesn't mean they should be.

 

Either way, I really don't see us reaching an agreement here so I won't be arguing anymore after this.

[brunokiller]

I'm not ignoring it, I already answered it. It's a matter of opinion.

 

Let's break down the numbers. Say you're right, and that herblore costs 75 million while smithing costs 3 million.

 

Hate to break it to you, but that's not a very big difference. 25x is the difference between a Mithril and Rune Scimitar. Would you say getting a Rune Scimitar is very, very hard while getting a Mithril Scimitar is easy? Probably not. But I guarantee you there are players out there who can afford the Mithril and not the Rune. The situation hasn't changed just because you are 50M richer. Sure, 3M is small to you, while 75M is huge. But that is to YOU. There are players who find the 25K for a Rune Scimitar huge. And then there's players like me, who find them both rather small. I'm not rich - far from it. But 75M is honestly not very much, you can scrape more than that in a few weeks of casually doing what you like, if what you like happens to be even remotely profitable.

 

Difference between extremes and 60 smithing is 72m. Difference between a rune and a mith scimmy is 20k.

 

Why do so many people have 60 smithing, but not 85 herblore? Aside that they are a req for ancient curses, 60 smithing is essentially useless. 85 herblore is very useful.

 

That comes purely from your perspective. First of all, how do we know you're representative of the typical Runescape player? Second of all, why should we cater to the typical Runescape player, when the typical Runescape player grows stronger and stronger? At one point, any 99 skill was insane. These days, they're commonplace. At one point, it was a HUMONGOUS deal when anyone made it to max stats. These days, we have hundreds (if not thousands) of people with maxed stats.

I'm fairly sure the avarage player doesn't have 75m to buy extremes; what I want is that the avarage runescaper is capable of PKing without getting slaughtered by someone with a big bank, (and reducing power creep).

People change over time, and as they change, what looks hard and what looks easy changes too. Which is why I said, unless it's borderline negligible for everyone (3 attack) or incredibly over the top and into space for everyone (200M RC), it should be fair game. 96 Herblore looks hard now, but it might not be 5 years for now. 70 Smithing might look easy now, but it most certainly wasn't 5 years ago. And in either case, that's only from the "typical" stance, which excludes many players because Runescape players are very different.

If avarage Joe can easily get extremes (read ~10m), then from an equality point of view it IS fair. If torva drops to 5m a piece, I'd happily allow overloads. Allowing them now is simply unhealthy for dps vs lp balance.

 

Loads of things are not represented in combat levels, such as gear. Doesn't mean they should be.

Learn to read. Gear is RISKED.

[MstrMonopoly]

Gear is not always risked in +1.

 

I'm against extrs/ovls in PvP but I WOULD like to see them in some sort of all-out PVP setting like the revenant dungeon.

[TheWilch]

The new (old) wilderness is supposed to be dangerous, why remove some of that danger by not allowing people use of what they have worked to use. If you cant use ext/ovl then why dont u train herb? its called DIY if your poor. I dont have any chaotic but you dont hear me crying over people ripping me up with rapiers, its because i understand that im not willing to put in time for rewards. If the case is you have ovls and still dont want them in the wild, go duel.

 

If you want a restricted fight, we have a place for those. Id like a place where i can bring out the best of the best (in my possesion)

 

 

P.S.

the whole "but i cant tell if hes using ext/ovl because of his combat" yeah that logic is full of flaws.

(example) i stand ontop of some 1 while attacking you, you cant even see what weapon im hitting you with. :roll:

 

and the risk issue shouldnt be an issue anyone considering "RISK" itself is going out the window with the new/old wild.

 

 

im in favor of extremes and overloads in the wild, not just because i can use them BUT for the fact that its the wilderness. if you want a fair fight, go somewhere else. the wild isnt fair and never has been.

[brunokiller]

Gear is not always risked in +1.

That is assuming +1 worlds will be removed when old wild returns.

 

The new (old) wilderness is supposed to be dangerous, why remove some of that danger by not allowing people use of what they have worked to use. If you cant use ext/ovl then why dont u train herb? its called DIY if your poor. I dont have any chaotic but you dont hear me crying over people ripping me up with rapiers, its because i understand that im not willing to put in time for rewards. If the case is you have ovls and still dont want them in the wild, go duel.

Supposed to be dangerous =/= getting 1hit the moment you step in. Also gtfo with 'go duel'. It's a fallacy.

 

 

the whole "but i cant tell if hes using ext/ovl because of his combat" yeah that logic is full of flaws.

(example) i stand ontop of some 1 while attacking you, you cant even see what weapon im hitting you with. :roll:

He a. risks it and b. it's easy to work out+ you can lure him off.

and the risk issue shouldnt be an issue anyone considering "RISK" itself is going out the window with the new/old wild.

How so? You can still lose items in the 'old' wild.

 

 

im in favor of extremes and overloads in the wild, not just because i can use them BUT for the fact that its the wilderness. if you want a fair fight, go somewhere else. the wild isnt fair and never has been.

I like to think of the wilderness as a lawless place as well, but getting onehit takes the fun out of pking.

[All_Is_Great]

Gear is not always risked in +1.

 

I'm against extrs/ovls in PvP but I WOULD like to see them in some sort of all-out PVP setting like the revenant dungeon.

 

I wouldn't mind that either.

 

But a simple solution for this non-existent problem is just to keep them banned.

[TheWilch]

well the whole 1 hit thing shouldnt be much a problem considering you can use an extreme defence and jagex has already said they plan to "take a look" at powerful weapons like dragon claws and korasis, idk about GS's or a maul. its easy to get technically 1 hit now, go run around multi.

 

the risk issue should be handle like all of the other non-valuable gear. (torso, fire cape, gloves etc.) maybe give us the cost of super potion.

i thought the risk thing was the whole 78k bs.

 

these are the only real ways i see the pots being aloud in. i dont wanna get 1 hit either and the potentials there.

[brunokiller]

well the whole 1 hit thing shouldnt be much a problem considering you can use an extreme defence and jagex has already said they plan to "take a look" at powerful weapons like dragon claws and korasis, idk about GS's or a maul. its easy to get technically 1 hit now, go run around multi

Even with ext defs, onehit chance will increase (ext att cancels ext def, ext str => more ko potential. I believe they already 'fixed' it with their release of armour 'that will drastically change combat' (lol). Shame it costs 300m a piece.

 

the risk issue should be handle like all of the other non-valuable gear. (torso, fire cape, gloves etc.) maybe give us the cost of super potion.

i thought the risk thing was the whole 78k bs.

Risk= the items you are carrying. Jmods have confirmed that you won't be able to pickup untradables.

these are the only real ways i see the pots being aloud in. i dont wanna get 1 hit either and the potentials there.

Yeah ovls would be nice in that revenant dungeon.

[fat_klutz]

Well I don't even play anymore but if you want my opinion they shouldn't be allowed.

 

First thing, the long argument about 94 vs 95 prayer. I thought this was actually a good point but this demonstrates a flaw with the leveling system, not really a good supportive argument. It is something that should probably be changed.

 

Second thing about weapons/prayers being reflected in combat level, you may not be able to see d-claws in an inventory but if you are fighting somebody who is lvl 126 you know they have the ability to use them. If they choose to use them or not to it doesn't really matter. The one thing old pkers did well is minimize on stats and only get exactly what you needed. It was your choice to raise your attack past level 60 knowing you can not afford anything more than dragon weapons. On the other hand it is impossible to guage whether or not somebody has the ability to use extremes. If you are not willing to do the quests to get all those fancy prayers or do the dungeons or whatever than don't raise your prayer level!! If you can't afford the new armors don't raise your defense! It is your fault for getting the levels if you choose not to get the best equipment for them!!

 

When I played, there was options, you didn't have to have X,Y, and Z stats to be good. You could play a mith pure, a 1 defense pure, a rune pure, etc. The bottom line though was that if you were going to get 40 defense you were also going to wear the rune. It was assumed that players used the best items they could and as such seeing someone level 26 probably meant they were lvl 40 range. Even if they were chilling there in full iron knowing they were 26 gave you a good idea of what they are capable of. Knowing a player is lvl 126 means you should know they could pull out ags at anytime. On the other hand it is impossible to know at any level if they are going to use extremes, that is my problem.

 

tldr: I agree with the people who say you can't see em can't use em. Hope my explanation made some sense.

 

Suggestions instead of just complaints though... Allow the pots in the wildy. If you skull yourself though/have a skull they become supers. That way people who wanna hunt Choas elemental can still do it with extremes... if you are attacked with an extreme on leave it. That will be one of the risks to attack a non skulled player now. From then on however any extremes drunk will only appear as supers. I my solution is pretty fair. It lets people still use them in the wildy against monsters and even possibly agaisnt other players if the attacker is willing to take the risk.

[amitoz]

I love how you make 3 different entries for your unprefered option as to dilute the results...

 

 

Extremes shouldn't be allowed, herblore isn't a combat skill.

 

 

/thread

[Naraku893]

Extremes shouldn't be allowed, this is coming from someone who has them and uses them (me).

[Logdotzip]

I love how you make 3 different entries for your unprefered option as to dilute the results...

 

 

Extremes shouldn't be allowed, herblore isn't a combat skill.

 

 

/thread

 

It's as simple as adding up the three no options. And I don't seem to understand why you think your opinion on the matter is the end-all one of the topic.

 

"/thread" makes you look like an idiot.

[fayt420]

They shoud be allowed. Because you can't see if they have overloads or extremes is not a valid arguement. Someone could have Dclaws,AGS,DDS,ect in their inventory and switch and special you before you can pray switch,eat,ect. Not to mention if they train the skill its not fair to put limitations on it. So honestly i've heard no real valid excuse.

Not to mention with chaotic how can you tell if they have the dung lvl to use them you can't

[123Yourgone]

Long time no see xpx, anyway to the kids saying "Just wear full torva and divine" you realize that this is equivilant to wearing 3 1/2 blue party hats into the wild right?

As to extremes, i have them and allowing them in the wild is a stupid idea, pking isnt only for the kids who have time to spend making 200m and grinding herblore for weeks.

[obidiah]

I voted other. Which mostly means I don't really mind.

I don't reallly have the herblore levels

I don't really PK, I may go into the wilderness for other features but run away from the pkers when I do. - I probably woudln't bring extremes with me - even if I could make them - as I never bought in supers either.

[@Dan3HitU]

For those interested, I asked Mark and his answer (I asked for the simplest answer he could give to why they aren't been added) "because Herblore doesn't raise combat".

 

I personally think they should be allowed, but never mind I suppose.

[Crossed_Body]

I love how you make 3 different entries for your unprefered option as to dilute the results...

 

 

Extremes shouldn't be allowed, herblore isn't a combat skill.

 

 

/thread

 

Items resulting from quests shouldn't be allowed, quests require non-combat skills.

Potions shouldn't be allowed, herblore isn't a combat skill.

Food shouldn't be allowed, cooking and fishing aren't combat skills.

 

Geez, sure is good argument in here.

[Danqazmlp]

I love how you make 3 different entries for your unprefered option as to dilute the results...

 

 

Extremes shouldn't be allowed, herblore isn't a combat skill.

 

 

/thread

 

Items resulting from quests shouldn't be allowed, quests require non-combat skills.

Potions shouldn't be allowed, herblore isn't a combat skill.

Food shouldn't be allowed, cooking and fishing aren't combat skills.

 

Geez, sure is good argument in here.

 

Yes because items got from quests require combat skills to wield.

Food can be bought so is equal for all, along with the tradeable potions.

[Crossed_Body]

Food can be bought so is equal for all, along with the tradeable potions.

96 herblore is a buyable skill too. You don't buy extreme potions from other players, but you can buy the ability to make them yourself.

 

I think the problem with people saying that extreme potions can't be "bought" is that they actually mean "extreme potions are too expensive.", but that doesn't keep some people from using divines and elysians in a PvP environment.

 

Plus, quest items require non-combat skills to obtain, so in practice they do require non-combat skills to wield too.