Tip.It Times - 30th October 2011

[jimmy_jim]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

I'd like to remind people of the rules pertaining to Times threads:

 

[hide=Read these rules before posting in this thread]

Rampant flame wars have taken control of virtually every week's times discussion topics. The following guidelines must be followed when posting on this topic. Posts that ignore these guidelines will be removed.

 

1. You are invited and welcome to express like or dislike on articles and a particular author's writing style. It is not acceptable, however, to flame or personally insult an author. Posts that aren't anything but an attack will be removed from the topic.

 

2. Spelling and grammar errors can be reported to Jaffy1 by PMing her and they will be fixed promptly. It is not necessary to post them on the discussion topic.

 

3. Off topic posts that do not discuss the content of that week's articles will be removed. This is not the place to discuss the direction of the times, how much you love or hate the times, etc. Off topic posts will be removed.

 

By keeping within these guidelines, Times discussion topics will mean more for the Panel and Administration than just a place for flame wars. Flame wars do not provide any useful feedback to the Times, which is mainly what we're aiming for with these topics: feedback.

 

This policy is effective as of now, November 17, 2010. Any posts prior to the creation of this policy may or may not be removed according to the new guidelines.

[/hide]

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to me :)

 

Enjoy the articles!

[Kirschen]

Read the first article, and I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with it. I've essentially stopped dungeoneering and various other activities due to the frequency of the elitist behavior. Unfortunately, due to the increasing frequency of the behavior, it's hard to be carefree and lax while doing something without getting input from some stranger, followed by scolding remarks for not responding, but I'll stop from there.

 

Will have to read the rest later, but this week's set of articles is looking to be awesome. :)

[Saradomin_Mage]

Regarding the first article, I'm not sure sometimes if some people generally just want to be told what they want to hear, or if they're genuinely trying at all.

If you already know what you want to do with what you have, why bother posing a question to see your method shot to pieces?

There are people who actually want to improve themselves. Those are the people who deserve time, attention and energy. Then there are those who are content at plodding along at whatever pace they're going at, and they really don't need further attention, because they always get defensive/hissy when their method is pointed out as being "less efficient". If they didn't want to hear that, why pose the question in the first place? If they posed the question, what do they really want to hear?

 

Sorry this is a bit of a mess, I felt like the article was baiting me, as if we didn't have this discussion enough times already.

[Ellac]

I've only read the first article, and I must say that it is very true. Sadly, I also must say that the article was basically describing how a good portion of the people I dungeoneer with act.

 

Very good articles this week. :thumbup:

[Fallstar]

Whilst I partially agree with the first article regarding how people are often douches whilst dungeoneering (everyone gets a bit uptight after their fourth large floor in a row or whatever), in general when people post OK, I've got x resources to train a skill to level y, so I can't do method z, in the majority of cases it is more efficient and will require less time on their part to earn enough resources to do method z. For example, chinning range versus using throwing knives - making the money to chin, then chinning to the desired level, takes less time than just using throwing knives to get to the desired level. But some people seem incapable of seeing this kind of logic.

[Hawks]

First article is why I don't train or Dung with anybody... Part of that is also my personality, I can't deal with slackers or overbearing people, so I don't get involved with them.

 

Looking forward to seeing the fictionals continue, particularly excited about Forsaken's piece.

[Kirschen]

First article is why I don't train or Dung with anybody... Part of that is also my personality, I can't deal with slackers or overbearing people, so I don't get involved with them.

 

Looking forward to seeing the fictionals continue, particularly excited about Forsaken's piece.

 

Agreed. I loved Forsaken's piece since it leaves something to pull you in. For some reason, I wasn't into the other fiction that was included in this week.

[Power]

ForsakenMage mentioned writing an article about this in the hyt chat a while back, it was a pretty interesting read.

[Alg]

I've only read the first article, and I must say that it is very true. Sadly, I also must say that the article was basically describing how a good portion of the people I dungeoneer with act.

Indeed. I quit the skill after DGing eith a keyer that insulted the team for everything, regardless of whether or not they did anything wrong. Yes, you have people that refuse help and won't learn, but it doesn't help the people who do want to learn if they're treated that way by default.

[Jaffy1]

[...] For example, chinning range versus using throwing knives - making the money to chin, then chinning to the desired level, takes less time than just using throwing knives to get to the desired level. But some people seem incapable of seeing this kind of logic.

It has nothing to do with not being able to see the logic. It has to do with what people prefer, and attitudes by others towards this. Some people prefer efficiency, and that's fine, but others prefer to do things another way, which is equally as fine. What is not fine, is how people do not respect the fact that others see things differently, and behave (for example) elitist.

 

That said, attitude goes both ways, and common understanding would be nice.

[FooK-A-Ji]

My dungeoneering level is 1, but I totally agree.

[RU_Insane]

Totally agree with the first article and my Dungeoneering level's 8 :P

[Pinata]

I agree with the first article, the only problem about teaching people in a dungeon is that to effectively teach someone, how to be fast it would probably take a 2+hr dungeon (to explain everything), and most people don't want that. Personally I learned from experience. I mean there are so many tips & tricks to dungeoneering, and the learning curve is different for everyone. I've met a few people who are 110+ dungeoneering and can't dungeoneer effectively. A lot of 120 dungeoneers, still don't know the herbs and 2ndaries for various pots.

 

I agree about people having an elitest attitude, while I never get scolded, I've been on plentiful teams where the slower guy gets raged at. Personally, I don't get along with ppl who have giant egos, so after the dungeon I leave the team whether or not the keyer is fast. I usually key my own dungeons though, if someone doesn't know what to do and can't listen to advice, I usually just tell them to kill stuff. I never try to put others down though.

 

My best advice:

 

Gate doors

Only kill monsters in gds/mime

Bind a hood and 2h(t7+berserker)

Don't afk

Don't worry about dying, if you worry about dying you will never be able to dungeoneer effectively

Don't skill

 

If you follow all of that and still get raged at, after the dungeon find a new team, that person is just an [wagon].

[Assume Nothing]

This seems like an article that could be prone to over generalisations - I would look at it more thoroughly later.

[Scotaidh]

Commenting on the FIRST ARTICLE:

 

 

I found it a great read that really touched home with me. And, as I always say when posting, what I am commenting on is from MY OWN perspective, and not necessarily to be taken as written in stone....'tis just my opinion.

 

Mid last year I joined a Clan that a "friend" was in, despite my reluctance to do so. This clan was run by high level PMODs, and very structured in the sense that certain scheduled events were MANDATORY with attendance from clan members. I had no problem with that, and participated in all the events that actually mattered to me, or held some aspect of interest geared towards me personally. I don't like a great many minigames, suffice to say. They had an offsite forum, and encouraged members to "speak their minds" so long as it was done maturely and respectfully.

 

Therein lay the problem I encountered....

 

I am one who speaks out when I see something as being wrong, from MY perspective, and when I disagree with things in general, or specifically. When Free Trade was reintroduced, I had posted on this Clan's forum with respect to MY feelings on the matter...specifically that it would bring about mass Botting/Scamming, etc., and that I was opposed to it on the whole. I did so respectfully, even stating that I could understand Jagex's reasoning, though I strongly disagreed with it nonetheless.

 

To make a longer story shorter...this clan's leaders expelled me from the clan, and told me to stay away from its members and clan chat...they actually sent me an email telling me all this. And THEIR reason for doing so? Because MY opinions were not inline with THEIRS, and thus I could not be a party to their clan since I was not "inline" with the leader's and "clan elder's" personal beliefs and opinions. This is the FIRST time I have spoken out about this clan's actions against me, but it seemed appropriate to me to do so, as this article made me recall how I felt when I was expelled from that group...and ONLY because I had a difference in opinion. Geesh.

 

Anywho, I have also run into individual players that have tried to belittle me for playing the game as a form of entertainment to escape the real world, and went to great extremes, bordering harassment, to make their way of playing known to me...so much so that I have had to hop worlds to get away from them. I do my best to simply ignore them, and play the game the way that I want to and not according to "efficiency", what have you. I just want to have FUN, and play a GAME. I am not looking to excel, nor "be the best", nor anything of the kind. I offer advise when asked (mainly directing players to Tip.it to read through a guide, or use a calculator, et.al.), and if you ask my own clan mates, they will tell you, I am also generous in helping people. NEVER have I tried to "enforce" my own style of play on others...and I do not understand fully why others feel the "need" to do so to me with their ways of playing the game. I already KNOW, thanks to Tip.it, that there are more efficient ways of doing things, but that is just not...ME.

 

So, kudos to the author. This was a fantastic article, and well said. Cheers!

 

PS. Again, I am only speaking from MY perspective here. Thank you.

 

:)

[homer205]

[...] For example, chinning range versus using throwing knives - making the money to chin, then chinning to the desired level, takes less time than just using throwing knives to get to the desired level. But some people seem incapable of seeing this kind of logic.

It has nothing to do with not being able to see the logic. It has to do with what people prefer, and attitudes by others towards this. Some people prefer efficiency, and that's fine, but others prefer to do things another way, which is equally as fine. What is not fine, is how people do not respect the fact that others see things differently, and behave (for example) elitist.

 

That said, attitude goes both ways, and common understanding would be nice.

While I agree that if people prefer to do it the less efficient way, they should. I don't see why these people are asking for help if they alreay know what they prefer. To me, that is just wasting the time of the people who have responded, as well as meaning there is less space on the front page for questions from those who are going to take advice (lets face it, people rarely click onto the second page). In these cases, if someone is wasting time, is it really surprising that they will get rude responses? Not to mention that, even though they're rude, the information is generally good.

 

That's all with respect to answers on the forums. Attitudes in dungeoneering may vary because of time constraints.

 

I'm unsure as to what experience in regards to dungeoneering Fook/Insane are drawing their opinions from.

[NukeMarine]

The first article did hit upon a personal pet peeve of mine. It's not just in these forums, but many places where a person asks a very specific questions with very specific criteria. Instead of answers based on that, you get pages of second guessing what the person intends or how there's better ways. Hell, I'd even be cool with "Here's the answer to your question.....That said, it might be better if you....". At least you answered what was asked then offer advice.

 

JATFQ!!! (you can figure out the acronym).

[Deletion]

The first article did hit upon a personal pet peeve of mine. It's not just in these forums, but many places where a person asks a very specific questions with very specific criteria. Instead of answers based on that, you get pages of second guessing what the person intends or how there's better ways. Hell, I'd even be cool with "Here's the answer to your question.....That said, it might be better if you....". At least you answered what was asked then offer advice.

 

JATFQ!!! (you can figure out the acronym).

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. More often than not a person will ask a question for example how to do something, giving no stats, gear, requirements, criteria, etc. Then once they get given an answer they say 'but this is how I want to do it', completely wasting the time of all the people that tried to help them, and thus the people that gave them the advice (generally the efficiency crowd) get annoyed. I think this is how they get given a bad reputation, not because they don't answer questions to the askers specifications, but because it is extremely annoying when answering somebodies question who just ignores the advice given and does it their own way anyway.

 

I agree with the dungeoneering comments though, the skill has definitely become more elitest and efficiency based. However, saying that, it's not unenjoyable like many people make it out to be, as long as you aren't skilling, being a surivor prod, and follow orders given it is easy enough to do a 25-30 minute large (Yes, slow I know) on W148 with a group of randoms. I still find the skill immensely fun even though I have crappy internet and am often slow to gd's due to doorlag, even with the occasional keyer who hurls unneeded and pointless abuse.

[Ginger_Warrior]

While I agree that if people prefer to do it the less efficient way, they should. I don't see why these people are asking for help if they alreay know what they prefer. To me, that is just wasting the time of the people who have responded, as well as meaning there is less space on the front page for questions from those who are going to take advice (lets face it, people rarely click onto the second page). In these cases, if someone is wasting time, is it really surprising that they will get rude responses? Not to mention that, even though they're rude, the information is generally good.

In real life, due to my job and voluntary work, I'm well versed in giving out advice to other people on health-related issues, but the same is true for any form of advice giving. There are two things you just have to accept:

 

1) Expect lots of resistance - If people weren't so convicted in their own misinformation in the first place, they probably wouldn't have got to the situation where they needed to ask other people for help. It stands to reason that you will get people (arguably a majority) that won't take your advice onboard at first. Some people need time, some people need showing an example, and some people won't change their mind anyway, so why bother arguing? It's their choice, however bad it is.

 

2) Rudeness kills you - In the heat of an online FPS match, or even a TF floor, the situation is different. People need to brought into line quickly, efficiently with as little dispute as possible, otherwise the team's objective is in danger. For this, shouting and intimidating others into action are effective tactics. The advice board on an Internet forum is different. If people present their opinions in a rude, snobbish and offensive manner, no matter how strongly they're backed up by evidence, the other person will look for ways to refute the advice given as a resentment against the treatment they were given. As such, you cannot afford to be rude... ever, no matter how frustrated you feel.

 

I've seen so many doctors/nurses who acamedically were brilliant and I'd never doubt their clinical competency as health-care professionals, but their refusal to accept the above two as a fact of life made them a much lesser clinician for it, believe me.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Back to the issue of clans specifically, the article touches on a frustration I personally feel with the elite dungeoneering clans. Almost all of them started out as 'teacher' clans, willing to provide training and hands-on experience to all who were wanting to try the skill out for themselves. This worked very well, since dungeoneering efficiently is a complex art, and as such it's something people need to learn for themselves rather than inherit as natural skill. This makes it all the more saddening that many of those clans have now lowered the portcullis and started accepting people by application only, usually with the caveat that they require no further training on arrival.

 

I understand there is a need to prevent the clan being inundated by inexperience, but there are ways of dealing with this without shifting the clan away from its entire raison d'etre. I see lots of these clans complain that people "don't know how to dungeoneer", and that "dungeoneering is dying" but their own attitude frankly has been counter-productive to keeping it alive.

 

There needs to be a shifting again of the goals. Instead of worrying over floor times and exp/hr graphs, perhaps just focus on producing new talent, so you've got enough recruits to dungeoneer in the first place. If you do this properly, an increase in efficiency will look after itself. Have your elite divisions and promotions based on dungeoneering competency, just don't kill the whole thing off at grassroots level.

[ForsakenMage]

[...] For example, chinning range versus using throwing knives - making the money to chin, then chinning to the desired level, takes less time than just using throwing knives to get to the desired level. But some people seem incapable of seeing this kind of logic.

It has nothing to do with not being able to see the logic. It has to do with what people prefer, and attitudes by others towards this. Some people prefer efficiency, and that's fine, but others prefer to do things another way, which is equally as fine. What is not fine, is how people do not respect the fact that others see things differently, and behave (for example) elitist.

 

That said, attitude goes both ways, and common understanding would be nice.

While I agree that if people prefer to do it the less efficient way, they should. I don't see why these people are asking for help if they alreay know what they prefer. To me, that is just wasting the time of the people who have responded, as well as meaning there is less space on the front page for questions from those who are going to take advice (lets face it, people rarely click onto the second page). In these cases, if someone is wasting time, is it really surprising that they will get rude responses? Not to mention that, even though they're rude, the information is generally good.

 

That's all with respect to answers on the forums. Attitudes in dungeoneering may vary because of time constraints.

 

I'm unsure as to what experience in regards to dungeoneering Fook/Insane are drawing their opinions from.

The main point of the problem is that when specific restrictions from the most efficient/cost-effective methods are stated clearly, the most extreme of these "elitists" completely disregard them. NukeMarine summed it up nicely.

 

The first article did hit upon a personal pet peeve of mine. It's not just in these forums, but many places where a person asks a very specific questions with very specific criteria. Instead of answers based on that, you get pages of second guessing what the person intends or how there's better ways. Hell, I'd even be cool with "Here's the answer to your question.....That said, it might be better if you....". At least you answered what was asked then offer advice.

 

JATFQ!!! (you can figure out the acronym).

It's not about the players being stubborn and asking for help and later rejecting because it didn't match up to what they want to do (this I can completely understand why people would get frustrated on all sides of the issue); but rather the players who do want help, but have such restrictions, only to get told that the only way to even do something is spend even more time and resources before using the most efficient/cost-effective methods that go beyond their restrictions, and worst case scenario get told that they're idiots for not following their advice. You could say in the long-run that it'd be great for the OP, but in the short-run, when the question and restrictions have been posed and it's completely ignored, it doesn't sound very considerate for the OP at all.

 

:P Figured out the acronym, by the way.

 

I'll be honest, writing this article was not the most easy for me because it touches on a lot of what has happened within the Tip.it community, and understandably have people believe that I am targeting specific people/groups here. I do apologize if it sounds like an over-generalization and sniping, but please remember this does happen outside of Tip.it as well as some people have already stated.

 

The other option for me would've been to write about the bot-nuke, but I would prefer to keep that on hold for another few weeks to see how truly effective it is/was (and I think we're all a wee bit tired of the botting articles, as hot and pressing of a topic as it is, and could use a break :-?).

 

As for the fictional... Hopefully I can meet up to your expectations. :P It's gonna be a slow build-up in some ways, and will be the first time in ages since Saradomin's Sun that I'll be doing an actual fictional storyline again so we'll see! XD (Larry & the Penguins Part II is still in a notebook somewhere too ugh! LOL)

[Obtaurian]

Back to the issue of clans specifically, the article touches on a frustration I personally feel with the elite dungeoneering clans. Almost all of them started out as 'teacher' clans, willing to provide training and hands-on experience to all who were wanting to try the skill out for themselves. This worked very well, since dungeoneering efficiently is a complex art, and as such it's something people need to learn for themselves rather than inherit as natural skill. This makes it all the more saddening that many of those clans have now lowered the portcullis and started accepting people by application only, usually with the caveat that they require no further training on arrival.

 

I understand there is a need to prevent the clan being inundated by inexperience, but there are ways of dealing with this without shifting the clan away from its entire raison d'etre. I see lots of these clans complain that people "don't know how to dungeoneer", and that "dungeoneering is dying" but their own attitude frankly has been counter-productive to keeping it alive.

 

There needs to be a shifting again of the goals. Instead of worrying over floor times and exp/hr graphs, perhaps just focus on producing new talent, so you've got enough recruits to dungeoneer in the first place. If you do this properly, an increase in efficiency will look after itself. Have your elite divisions and promotions based on dungeoneering competency, just don't kill the whole thing off at grassroots level.

 

Because there's no other dungeoneering clan that utilizes an application process or actively teaches people, I'll assume that you're referring to DGS.

 

This makes it all the more saddening that many of those clans have now lowered the portcullis and started accepting people by application only, usually with the caveat that they require no further training on arrival.

 

This is absolutely 100% untrue. Out of the 100s of applications we've gotten since we moved to xp-waste, maybe two or three of those people required no additional training and were already considered to be some of the best. We have so many systems and resources for teaching that it's actually pretty overwhelming for new recruits. Most of our higher ranks are more than willing to help teach pathing (there's a thread on xpw about this), puzzle tricks (there's a lot of threads on xpw about this), map-reading (there's a guide on xpw), keying (hands-on experience, and every new recruit learns to key, period), etc. I can't actually remember the last time we banned or rejected someone based on their lack of dungeoneering skill, as most people improve significantly within a few weeks. We're quite proud of the fact that our low level dungeoneers (80-100 dungeoneering) can do 20 minute floors consistently. Most 120s can't even do that.

 

I see lots of these clans complain that people "don't know how to dungeoneer", and that "dungeoneering is dying" but their own attitude frankly has been counter-productive to keeping it alive.

 

To me, this comment is a reflection of your inexperience with dungeoneering clans or the dungeoneering world outside of your own. Dungeoneering is dying. We've been working closely with three other clans in an attempt to spark a little life into more efficiency-based dungeoneering (ie, not w117/148/67 style dungeoneering). EoE was actually invited to participate.

 

There needs to be a shifting again of the goals. Instead of worrying over floor times and exp/hr graphs, perhaps just focus on producing new talent, so you've got enough recruits to dungeoneer in the first place. If you do this properly, an increase in efficiency will look after itself. Have your elite divisions and promotions based on dungeoneering competency, just don't kill the whole thing off at grassroots level.

 

Producing new talent and worrying about floor times and exp/h go hand-in-hand, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Our ranks are based on dungeoneering competency.

[Jonanananas]

I will probably reply with more later on, but for now just a tip for the writer of the first fictional: Please make sure that all actions happening between dialogues are clear. It doesn't make for good reading if Person A says something, and the next one is Person B in another city.

[Guest jrhairychest]

The "Be Patient with Me. I'm Slow, but I Want to Try" article was pretty good. I can see points in other peoples posts where players are reluctant/incapable of learning new or improved methods but the overall elitist attitude is why I tend not to do any form of team games at all.

[Blutters]

Read the first article... I feel it was so thinly veiled as to be tasteless.

Everyone knows who you're talking about, including the people you're talking about. What's the point of not naming names if you're going to step on their toes so obviously?

That said, I'm not defending the attitudes you described. I quite honestly agree with most of what you said [FSM]. I just don't see the point of bringing it back up when it's so likely to rebound on you.

 

Fortunately for me, for Dungeoneering in particular, I was around when the skill came out and still had many friends playing with my levels.

We learned together. And it was the greatest fun I'd ever had on RuneScape. And I wish everyone who came back after a long absence had this opportunity, but unfortunately many do not.

Solo DG SUCKS. There are so many times that it's occured to me "You were never meant to be doing this by yourself" when I'm doing a solo floor for whatever reason.

However, dealing with a teacher who won't bridge to your level is worse. From my experience, I was dealing with people standing a step above who would only lower a thin rope after a bout of reprimand.

There were people who genuinely cared, and people who genuinely did not. And there were far more of the latter than the former.

 

_

I once posted a thread in H&A about Fishing. I acknowledged that I knew the most efficient method but did not want to take that route for certain reasons. Rather, it was that I did not know how anything after that method ranked. My question was essentially "Ignoring A, what's better between B and C?"

IIRC the first several replies were just insulting me for "ignoring A" with the information I actually wanted coming much later, so I've been in exactly that situation which that part of the article describes... :mellow:

[ForsakenMage]

Read the first article... I feel it was so thinly veiled as to be tasteless.

Everyone knows who you're talking about, including the people you're talking about. What's the point of not naming names if you're going to step on their toes so obviously?

To be quite frank with you, I know not all of DGS and XPW are like that. For me to say that it's just them when there are plenty of people who are not part of either of those groups that act like this would have been considered a direct attack on a group I do not know very well aside from a small few of their members. So no, I'm not going to say that I'm accusing DGS and XPW of doing this because that would be an over generalization and bring about drama that is not welcome.