Tipping

[champion]

Yup. I agree with that.

[Assume Nothing]

Seriously? You should tip as long as the person isn't rude. I don't see how this can be debated like this?

 

So you tip the guy at the checkouts in supermarkets or shop assistants? Do you tip the bus driver? Etc...

No. They get paid for their job, and so do waiters. If the managers take advantage of the social norm that tipping has become and pay less than minimum wage then that's something that should be sorted, but people shouldn't feel obligated to tip because someone is taking advantage of the system.

 

Do checkouts get paid largely below minimum wages? Shop assistants? Bus drivers? Etc... Therefore, your point is entirely invalid; you ignored the other part of my post, obviously. Where I said that waiters and so on get paid under minimum wage. Fight the people that are causing this, not the waitress. Don't like tipping? Don't eat out.

 

[hide=Random off-topic point]Again, this is why charities don't work, either. Yea, you have some people donating, but not enough. This is why social welfare is a necessary evil. This is why taxes are a necessary evil. So on.[/hide]

 

There's no valid reason why an employer should pay under minimum wage with the expectation that servers would receive sufficient tips to supplement a sub-par income. The fundamental purpose of tipping - to express gratitude in monetary form, has been lost. It's no longer a choice, it's now a obligation - whereby tipping is essentially mandatory.

 

It ought to be a choice, based on the level of service provided (which serves as an incentive for service industry employees to go beyond their employer's expectations), as it's simply unfair that there's essentially a hidden fee - not because the service provided were excellent, but because the employees are being exploited. If tipping weren't mandatory, we'd see earnings more reflective of the actual quality of services being provided.

 

I prefer the UK system, whereby wages are sufficient to meet the national minimum wage standard. If the system needs changing, then the first thing that needs changing would be the tipping itself - when that changes, employers would be forced to adjust to new wage rates. It's absurd to suggest that the patrons are responsible for the exploitation of employees.

 

Your so-called "solution" only hurts the waiter or whoever else. Not the employer, not anyone else. So again, I fail to see how it will solve anything. Instead, the waiters would have to get another job to sustain themselves, if they don't have another one already. Which is not so easy, especially in this economy.

 

People are under the assumption that an employer cares about its employees. That is true to this extent: as long as the employee is profitable. Why do you think companies outsource? Is it to help the economies of China and Taiwan and so many others, and provide money for their poor citizens? No. It is to make more money. If a company here could legally get away with paying an employee peanuts per hour, I don't doubt many would be in uproar over the law. Rather, they'd try their best to pay employees peanuts on the hour, and for as long as they are able to get away with it, they will continue.

 

What? You should elaborate on your point - how exactly does it hurt the waiter with my proposal? Your assertions currently hold little to no weight.

 

I see no reason to tip an employee unless they provide a good service. If the employees are being exploited, then the accountability should lay within the government's hands - not the patrons. I see no reason to empathize - it's not my responsibility as a consumer to provide waiters with a supplementary wage rate.

 

It's simply absurd to suggest that tipping should be mandatory.

[Veiva]

Seriously? You should tip as long as the person isn't rude. I don't see how this can be debated like this?

 

So you tip the guy at the checkouts in supermarkets or shop assistants? Do you tip the bus driver? Etc...

No. They get paid for their job, and so do waiters. If the managers take advantage of the social norm that tipping has become and pay less than minimum wage then that's something that should be sorted, but people shouldn't feel obligated to tip because someone is taking advantage of the system.

 

Do checkouts get paid largely below minimum wages? Shop assistants? Bus drivers? Etc... Therefore, your point is entirely invalid; you ignored the other part of my post, obviously. Where I said that waiters and so on get paid under minimum wage. Fight the people that are causing this, not the waitress. Don't like tipping? Don't eat out.

 

[hide=Random off-topic point]Again, this is why charities don't work, either. Yea, you have some people donating, but not enough. This is why social welfare is a necessary evil. This is why taxes are a necessary evil. So on.[/hide]

 

There's no valid reason why an employer should pay under minimum wage with the expectation that servers would receive sufficient tips to supplement a sub-par income. The fundamental purpose of tipping - to express gratitude in monetary form, has been lost. It's no longer a choice, it's now a obligation - whereby tipping is essentially mandatory.

 

It ought to be a choice, based on the level of service provided (which serves as an incentive for service industry employees to go beyond their employer's expectations), as it's simply unfair that there's essentially a hidden fee - not because the service provided were excellent, but because the employees are being exploited. If tipping weren't mandatory, we'd see earnings more reflective of the actual quality of services being provided.

 

I prefer the UK system, whereby wages are sufficient to meet the national minimum wage standard. If the system needs changing, then the first thing that needs changing would be the tipping itself - when that changes, employers would be forced to adjust to new wage rates. It's absurd to suggest that the patrons are responsible for the exploitation of employees.

 

Your so-called "solution" only hurts the waiter or whoever else. Not the employer, not anyone else. So again, I fail to see how it will solve anything. Instead, the waiters would have to get another job to sustain themselves, if they don't have another one already. Which is not so easy, especially in this economy.

 

People are under the assumption that an employer cares about its employees. That is true to this extent: as long as the employee is profitable. Why do you think companies outsource? Is it to help the economies of China and Taiwan and so many others, and provide money for their poor citizens? No. It is to make more money. If a company here could legally get away with paying an employee peanuts per hour, I don't doubt many would be in uproar over the law. Rather, they'd try their best to pay employees peanuts on the hour, and for as long as they are able to get away with it, they will continue.

 

What? You should elaborate on your point - how exactly does it hurt the waiter with my proposal? Your assertions currently hold little to no weight.

 

I see no reason to tip an employee unless they provide a good service. If the employees are being exploited, then the accountability should lay within the government's hands - not the patrons. I see no reason to empathize - it's not my responsibility as a consumer to provide waiters with a supplementary wage rate.

 

It's simply absurd to suggest that tipping should be mandatory.

 

No one tips waiter/waitress unless waiter/waitress performs up to some arbitrary scale. Now, waiter makes little to no income over the minimum. Now, how is he or she supposed to support himself or herself?

 

I should also once again inform you that minimum wage is much lower for waiters/waitresses than it is for other jobs. See: http://www.nclabor.com/wh/fact%20sheets/minimum_wage_in_NC.htm

[Assume Nothing]

It's not arbitrary - it's what's deemed sufficient, despite a subjective aspect to it. It's improbable that no one tips should they perform to an average standard - it's more likely that tips would simply be of lesser value. To address your presupposition; I'm certain those who receive minimum wage can support themselves on their income, unless they're unable to receive sufficient hours to pay for their bills and such.

 

I'm unsure how your implicit argument that 'waiters should receive a wage-rate sufficient to support oneself, beyond what employers are willing to pay' would be of any relationship to why 'patrons ought to feel an obligation to tip waiters'. It's simply not our duty as consumers to do so. I understand why you can empathize, but I don't share this empathy. I tip on the basis of good quality service.

 

It may be a good idea to pull some figures, since we're discussing theory here.

 

EDIT - If the minimum wage is much lower, then it's a problem with the industry - not the consumers. I still see no reason why the responsibility shifts towards the consumers.

[Nomrombom]

It doesn't, Skeptic. It's up to each person whether they want to make sure the waiter gets enough or wants to tip as is proper. You and Veiva simply differ in opinion on that.

[sees_all1]

It feels heartwarming how charitable people are with other people's money, and how tight-fisted they are with their own.

[Assume Nothing]

Are you suggesting that those employees have some sort of entitlement to that money? It's as if you're implying that not being wasteful with money is a heinous crime.

 

I operate on this philosophy; I only tip when I feel they're deserving of the tip.

[Ginger_Warrior]

It feels heartwarming how charitable people are with other people's money, and how tight-fisted they are with their own.

If you're replying to me (I've no idea if you are, as I'm sure no-one else is), then I am not convinced that paying someone a fair wage for the services they offer you as an employer can be put in the same category as "charity".

[Assume Nothing]

It can't - they're completely separate things. I like how the UK/US viewpoints clash, though.

[Noxx]

I really hate the fact that some places already include up to 15% tip on the bill. I feel that a tip should be given for good service.

In the middle east (and im sure many other countries) tipping is actually highly discouraged (although they are opening up to the idea a bit more now).

But sometimes i really don't see the point of tipping. Does an accountant get tipped for his good work/service?

[sees_all1]

It feels heartwarming how charitable people are with other people's money, and how tight-fisted they are with their own.

If you're replying to me (I've no idea if you are, as I'm sure no-one else is), then I am not convinced that paying someone a fair wage for the services they offer you as an employer can be put in the same category as "charity".

If your location is UK you're off the hook.

[Will H]

I'm interested in the idea that the US and UK viewpoints clash on this subject, but I'm not entirely sure whether that's true. Yes, our laws differ, but as is the case on many things, the typical public opinion doesn't always match with the law.

 

Does anyone here actually think that it's okay to include tips in the minimum wage, and if so why?

[Racheya]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

[obfuscator]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped.

 

Tipping should be socially encouraged, but not mandatory. I think that's the best compromise...

[Nomrombom]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

 

This.

[Racheya]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped.

 

Tipping should be socially encouraged, but not mandatory. I think that's the best compromise...

I'd agree with that. There's nothing wrong with tipping when you want to, and most of the time it's easy enough to round up the bill a few quid or so, I just dislike what seems to be a very popular US opinion that you *have* to tip - although I can understand why that exists since employers don't pay their employees properly.

[Danqazmlp]

Maybe a new political movement needs forming in the US where a minimum wage standard like the UK is set up and can be enforced by law. Here in the UK it is fairly simple and rates are enforced across the board, with the only exceptions being very small and quite obvious such as volunteers and prisoners.

 

Through lookin, there are sort of minimum wages in the US but I'm unsure as to how they are enforced if many people are paid under it.

[Assume Nothing]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped.

 

Tipping should be socially encouraged, but not mandatory. I think that's the best compromise...

 

We're not suggesting that - it's a blatant misrepresentation of our position. We simply want tipping to be a choice, as opposed to an obligation. I don't mind it being social etiquette, but I do mind it being an expectation (I realise I phrased my thoughts poorly in an earlier post).

 

That's the difference.

[obfuscator]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped.

 

Tipping should be socially encouraged, but not mandatory. I think that's the best compromise...

 

We're not suggesting that - it's a blatant misrepresentation of our position. We simply want tipping to be a choice, as opposed to an obligation. I don't mind it being social etiquette, but I do mind it being an expectation (I realise I phrased my thoughts poorly in an earlier post).

 

That's the difference.

I never said it was your position.

[Nomrombom]

Maybe a new political movement needs forming in the US where a minimum wage standard like the UK is set up and can be enforced by law. Here in the UK it is fairly simple and rates are enforced across the board, with the only exceptions being very small and quite obvious such as volunteers and prisoners.

 

Through lookin, there are sort of minimum wages in the US but I'm unsure as to how they are enforced if many people are paid under it.

 

Minimum wage is really the minimum for the vast majority of jobs. Waiters make less because of this whole tipping-makes-up-for-it crap. Prisoners make less as well, and I believe there are a few other jobs which receive tips and thus can make less than minimum. For the vast, vast majority though, minimum wage really is the minimum they get paid.

[Danqazmlp]

But, is it contractually enforced?

 

Here in the UK if I understand correctly, whatever your payment method, whatever your hours and whatever the contract, you need to be being paid at least minimum wage as basic pay, otherwise certain government offices can get involved.

 

Can waiters in America for instance go to an official and explain that they don't contractually get paid minimum wage, therefore leading to a change in it?

 

If not, this should be the case.

[obfuscator]

But, is it contractually enforced?

 

Here in the UK if I understand correctly, whatever your payment method, whatever your hours and whatever the contract, you need to be being paid at least minimum wage as basic pay, otherwise certain government offices can get involved.

 

Can waiters in America for instance go to an official and explain that they don't contractually get paid minimum wage, therefore leading to a change in it?

 

If not, this should be the case.

It is in Canada at least. And I believe in the states, there is a minimum wage for waiters, it's just less than the "normal" minimum wage - they can't be paid less than that. I could be wrong though.

[Assume Nothing]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped.

 

Tipping should be socially encouraged, but not mandatory. I think that's the best compromise...

 

We're not suggesting that - it's a blatant misrepresentation of our position. We simply want tipping to be a choice, as opposed to an obligation. I don't mind it being social etiquette, but I do mind it being an expectation (I realise I phrased my thoughts poorly in an earlier post).

 

That's the difference.

I never said it was your position.

 

"I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped."

 

It's implicit.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Minimum wage is really the minimum for the vast majority of jobs. Waiters make less because of this whole tipping-makes-up-for-it crap. Prisoners make less as well, and I believe there are a few other jobs which receive tips and thus can make less than minimum. For the vast, vast majority though, minimum wage really is the minimum they get paid.

So, what we're actually discovering here is that when a customer tips a waiter/waitress, they're masking a far more serious problem: That their employer isn't paying them a fair amount for the work they do.

 

I'm not sure about anyone else, but if I discovered that my charitable act of kindness was reinforcing the unfair circumstances someone else finds themselves in, I wouldn't be giving them money, I'd be giving them support to make their circumstances fairer.

[obfuscator]

I don't think it is. No matter what your job is, whether it's working as a Pizza delivery guy, a waiter or on the tills at Primark - you *should* be paid minimum wage. It's not the job of the consumers to pay for the employees so that the employer can short-change them. I'm okay with people giving tips because they want to, because of good service or food, but there shouldn't be an obligation to do it so that the guy doesn't go away with half a wage, it's the employers responsibility to provide minimum wage.

I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped.

 

Tipping should be socially encouraged, but not mandatory. I think that's the best compromise...

 

We're not suggesting that - it's a blatant misrepresentation of our position. We simply want tipping to be a choice, as opposed to an obligation. I don't mind it being social etiquette, but I do mind it being an expectation (I realise I phrased my thoughts poorly in an earlier post).

 

That's the difference.

I never said it was your position.

 

"I agree, but just because someone is making minimum wage doesn't mean they shouldn't be tipped."

 

It's implicit.

 

Thank you for telling me what I meant. I added it as an aside to a point someone else made.