The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[brunokiller]

Mod Pi

Jagex Mod

12-Nov-2012 10:31:27 Last edited on 12-Nov-2012 10:31:40 by Mod Pi

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Hey guys,

We're doing some slayer xp rate testing today and making changes where applicable. We've also just converted the following mobs to have melee weakness':

 

Hellhounds

Abby Demons

Terror Dogs

Nechryaels

Jadinkos

 

Keep up the good feedback :)

Pi

[Saradomin_Mage]

Sorry, just wondering - does the dwarf multicannon still count as a ranged attack for purposes of XP/weaknesses?

[karnsy81]

Jagex's goal with EOC was to make all weapons of the same tier have the same DPS. Whether they have changed this or not, I know not.

[Sylpheed]

Haven't seen anyone mention this yet which surprises me. In the live stream yesterday Mod Chris explained a change to the momentum ability.

 

On top of what it already does, it will also automatically activate a basic ability every 20-30 seconds.

[Leon S]

I'd have to say the 3 wield styles are pretty well defined:

 

1) 1h wep + shield = tank. Reasonable damage output with extra def. Good for monsters who hit hard to slightly relaxed play.

2) Dual wield = Speed kills. Hits much faster than any other wield style, but sacrifices defence. Good for monsters with low def that you can slaughter fast.

3) 2h = 'Berserker' kind class. Slow attacks but has raw power. Good for monsters with quite high def that you wanna smash through.

 

Obviously in time we'll learn more about what works where exactly, but these cover the basic premise of each and roughly where they ought to work bestand obviously dual and 2h are kinda 2 sides of the same coin.

 

Dual wielding and two-handed swords have the same accuracy and the same DPS, so they're no different :P

[Alg]

That momentum change sounds incredibly cool.

 

Dual wielding and two-handed swords have the same accuracy and the same DPS, so they're no different :P

So it comes down to player choice: Do you like to see huge hits or do you like to see lots of hits? :mrgreen:

[Saradomin_Mage]

That momentum change sounds incredibly cool.

 

Dual wielding and two-handed swords have the same accuracy and the same DPS, so they're no different :P

So it comes down to player choice: Do you like to see huge hits or do you like to see lots of hits? :mrgreen:

Smaller hits have less overkill loss ;)

[Legionwizard]

So it comes down to player choice: Do you like to see huge hits or do you like to see lots of hits? :mrgreen:

Doesn't it depend on the situation which is best? The concept of DPS is only valid when performing attacks on a monster with infinite lifepoints, or at least a big pool. When narrowed down, some styles should be optimal:

• Slayer - low defence pool: dual wield (Mod Mark mentions 90+ hit chance for correct style in livestream)
  
• Slayer - large def/small hp pool: no preferred style
  
• Slayer - large def/large hp pool: 2handed
  
• PvM/Group - large def: 2handed
  

[Saradomin_Mage]

Accuracy is the same regardless of weapon type, only tier. A rapier is as accurate as a maul, for instance, and main hand and offhand rapiers are just as accurate as each other. It's quite a departure from the live game in that sense.

 

However, you can always be sure that overkill loss will exist, and dual wielding has even less overkill loss than a 1h weapon, since the offhand weapon deals 50% damage only.

[Octarine]

Cannoning/familiar would also play a role in the dual wield vs 2h choice I guess too, 2h being preferable in situations where a cannon can finish off a kill.

[Alg]

Credit to the NewsBot:

 

Changes To EoC on Launch

When the Evolution of Combat launches next week, there will be a number of changes from the current beta based on your feedback since the last rebalance.

These are the most significant changes, and also the ones that have caused most discussion on the forums!

 

Combat Triangle

There has already been a significant amount of rebalancing done in the beta around this, but there has been consistent feedback that the triangle is too strictly enforced in certain instances, particularly around PvM. This means that - in certain cases - you have to carry three sets of kit.

Therefore we’ve significantly increased the hit chance for users in either the same or negative side of the triangle as a result. We will continue to monitor this after release, so please let us know your feedback next week.

 

Potions & Herblore

Following your feedback, these have been powered up and given a serious boost compared to the beta.

 

Prayer

As with potions, there’s been a lot of discussion around Prayer and how it now interacts with the combat triangle. There is a general consensus that it is currently underpowered in the beta; therefore, at launch, it will be significantly stronger than in the current beta version.

 

Equipped Items Interface

The star system in the Equipped Items Interface was intended to provide a clear indication of an item’s effectiveness, but has ended up causing more questions than answers. For release, this is going to be replaced by a numbered bar, which will be less ambiguous and easier to interpret.

 

Special Attacks

There are no special attacks in the EoC (they’ve essentially been replaced by abilities) but there has been consistent feedback from yourselves that you like the current special attacks and would like to retain them.

Firstly, in the current beta, God Swords now have passive effects that are similar to their special-attack counterparts.

The list of items and effects as follows. All have a 1/4 chance on hit to do the following:

• Armadyl: Increases Attack and Strength stats.
  
• Bandos: Decreases targets defence if they are above a certain base Defence level.
  
• Saradomin: Heals some of your base life and prayer points.
  
• Zamorak: Stuns your target.
  
• Enchanted Excalibur (off-hand): Heals some base life points, which are boosted if the player has completed the elite tasks.
  

We are going to monitor how these work and potentially add similar passive effects to other items in the future, too.

The RuneScape Team

 

 

Few new things in there, most notable of which is that we're getting numbers in the equip screen.

[Saradomin_Mage]

we're getting numbers in the equip screen.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[muggiwhplar]

I wouldn't get your hopes up. Instead of a 1-5 "star scale" you're now getting a "numbered bar." As opposed to specific numbers like we currently have in the live game. But hopefully I'm wrong and the update makes the equipment screen actually informative

[strilmus]

The zamorak part is sort of a lie since it only binds.

[karnsy81]

RuneScape is trying to be like other MMO's. This is not good in my opinion. RuneScape's combat set it apart via being simple. This has ruined RS for me and I have completed my run on RS.

[Urza285]

RuneScape is trying to be like other MMO's. This is not good in my opinion. RuneScape's combat set it apart via being simple. This has ruined RS for me and I have completed my run on RS.

It's called adapting. Also they aren't "like" other MMO's. they carry similar yet distinct "concepts."

[Ruinous Edge]

RuneScape is trying to be like other MMO's. This is not good in my opinion. RuneScape's combat set it apart via being simple. This has ruined RS for me and I have completed my run on RS.

It's called adapting. Also they aren't "like" other MMO's. they carry similar yet distinct "concepts."

Karnsy's post is trying to be like other complainers on Runescape's FB page & RSOF uninformed, simplistic and lacking any real critique value (or whatever you want to cal it). Therefore it is not good in my opinion and ruined reading my reading pleasure, my run of caring for his opinion is over.

Thanks and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

EDIT: on topic though posts like that piss me the hell off. All I see whenever Jagex post on the RS fb page now is please don't release EoC your going to ruin your game, over 90% of veterans will quit if you release EoC or stop trying to copy WoW gf wowscape etc. etc.

If your that upset about the EoC coming, make a detailed complaint about what exactly is so bad with it i.e. prayer drain, ability cooldowns/effects etc. and let Jagex try to tweak the EoC to make it playable for you.

Ultimately the EoC is coming no matter what, adapt or shut the hell up complaining and ragequit already.

[Yoko Kurama]

Karnsy's post is trying to be like other complainers on Runescape's FB page & RSOF uninformed, simplistic and lacking any real critique value (or whatever you want to cal it). Therefore it is not good in my opinion and ruined reading my reading pleasure, my run of caring for his opinion is over.

Thanks and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Are you always this obnoxious and petulant or did you just decide to be such today? The only post that I am aware of, in this thread, which was completely unnecessary and ruined anyone's reading pleasure was yours, not Karnsy's. The sentiment expressed by Karnsy's post is perfectly legitimate, and quite widespread, and is, indeed, a valid criticism. The sentiment is actually quite pervasive in the RS community and has been for quite some a defining characteristic of RS; namely that what made RS so unique as compared to other MMORGPS was its simplicity. There are plenty of MMORPG's that are more complex, and there always will be, but there aren't too many like RS. Furthermore, part of the simplicity was due to the nature of the game; it's a browser game, it was never able to match the other MMORPGS(which tended to resort on downloads rather browsers , and it still might, not in various areas. Thus, simplicity made sense. While Jagex is free to do as they please, to implement such a change at this point is a complete departure from one RS's founding principles and how it was developed and sustained over the years. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but it does mean that people who signed up to RS for that simplicity and spent years on it, having grown accustomed to it, will be naturally be upset. It's a legitimate grievance and they have every right to express it. Next time, actually try to think for a little bit before you resort to knee-jerk petulance and nonsense.

[RSBDavid]

RuneScape is trying to be like other MMO's. This is not good in my opinion. RuneScape's combat set it apart via being simple. This has ruined RS for me and I have completed my run on RS.

 

Because World of Warcraft, EverQuest, League of Legends, and Diablo were the first games to feature abilities, actionbars, DoT and Hot spells, buffs and debuffs, and combo attacks..... You can trace actionbars to even before 1991 when Neverwinter Nights was released. I don't see you or anyone posting about how they steal ideas from other games. You really need to stick your head where there is more sunlight and realize Runescape will die within 3-5 years time from now without some change.

 

Runescape already has beaten the average MMO lifetime by 2-3 times. Yes you might not like it, yes people will quit, yes it will have features implemented in other popular MMO's, yes you continue to [bleep] about it like many others on the forums. If you think you can run the game better, become the damned CEO of Jagex instead of being a drama queen like the rest of the complainers. You can apply a position at Jagex here and work your way up the ladder. If you are no longer having fun with the game, then don't play. It is that simple. Don't [bleep] about it and drag others down with you.

 

The combat system is being changed for the better. They even added a lazy-ass mode, or momentum, where people who want the old combat style or something close to it can still play without manually using abilities. It is equal to the current rate of killing mobs in the current game. If you are willing to put more effort in to use abilities, you can kill things 35% faster. I do not see how you enjoy a game where you just click and wait. It sounds more like an obsession, a chore, not a game. This is one step in the right direction for the game. Perhaps we will see something even further in the future with skilling too. You need Jesus brah.

[Ruinous Edge]

Karnsy's post is trying to be like other complainers on Runescape's FB page & RSOF uninformed, simplistic and lacking any real critique value (or whatever you want to cal it). Therefore it is not good in my opinion and ruined reading my reading pleasure, my run of caring for his opinion is over.

Thanks and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Are you always this obnoxious and petulant or did you just decide to be such today? The only post that I am aware of, in this thread, which was completely unnecessary and ruined anyone's reading pleasure was yours, not Karnsy's. The sentiment expressed by Karnsy's post is perfectly legitimate, and quite widespread, and is, indeed, a valid criticism. The sentiment is actually quite pervasive in the RS community and has been for quite some a defining characteristic of RS; namely that what made RS so unique as compared to other MMORGPS was its simplicity. There are plenty of MMORPG's that are more complex, and there always will be, but there aren't too many like RS. Furthermore, part of the simplicity was due to the nature of the game; it's a browser game, it was never able to match the other MMORPGS(which tended to resort on downloads rather browsers , and it still might, not in various areas. Thus, simplicity made sense. While Jagex is free to do as they please, to implement such a change at this point is a complete departure from one RS's founding principles and how it was developed and sustained over the years. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but it does mean that people who signed up to RS for that simplicity and spent years on it, having grown accustomed to it, will be naturally be upset. It's a legitimate grievance and they have every right to express it. Next time, actually try to think for a little bit before you resort to knee-jerk petulance and nonsense.

OK maybe I was a little bit harsh, but games evolve with time, any game that does not change will ultimately die out. That is the life cycle of any game specially an MMORPG.

And the criticism that Runescape is trying to copy other MMO's is not valid, abilities and action bars have existed in games long before MMOs made there appearance on the gaming scene. That's like saying oh runescape is copying 'random MMO' because it's introduced summoning ... no there have been games for years that let you summon creatures to fight for you etc. not just MMO's.

Jagex have even introduced momentum to please these simplicity players, and plan on improving it further when EoC goes live by letting it randomly fire of an ability without so much as an action bar click by the player which would be equivalent to current rs combat with an added kick. So really nothing changed on the simple combat front.

[Demoli]

Been doing some slayer in beta to see how well it meshes with my current gear.

 

Ice Strykes are an amazing task, i could get almost 150k slayer exp hour with 300k+ Magic expp using Fire WAVE, sol and Gano. I used various abilities, but i came away with the impression that Auto Attacks do way more damage than abilities in these guys, when I ultimated into my Fire forn, i was doing consistents 8k dmage, and only 3-4k with abilities. Max hit 10k exactly. Will try momentum next time.

 

Blue Dragons: Another really fast task with Karil's and crystal bow using abilities. there is a combo ability that is a threshold, that does insane damage over a quick period of time and respawns fast.

 

Waterfiends. Double CCB ftw. Same strategy as dragons but with DW abilities.

 

Hellhounds: Magic and multitaret attacks are so good in this task. Kuradal dungeon puts them into a tight space for tsunami to kill 3-4 at a time. I felt so sad when i saw the were being changed into melee due to complaints, which were completely (low exp for meleers) unjustified, since I finished a 200+ HH task in less than 40 mins.

 

Soul Split is amazing for slayer, not so great for bosses. Buniyp is usually more than enoug healing though, maybe SS a threshold once or twice when needed.

[strilmus]

I suppose it's really just the sentiment that we don't need to hear you quitting if there is nothing you have to say besides the fact that you're quitting, unless people are going to start a "ruined forever" club and need to tell each other where they're going to meet up.

 

Wasn't there a subforum for that?

 

Perhaps you just want people to try to convince you to not quit, either so you can grudgingly give in, or show how stalwart you are in your decision to quit by continuing to respond.

 

Maybe we shouldn't say anything at all.

[Sylpheed]

 

Karnsy's post is trying to be like other complainers on Runescape's FB page & RSOF uninformed, simplistic and lacking any real critique value (or whatever you want to cal it). Therefore it is not good in my opinion and ruined reading my reading pleasure, my run of caring for his opinion is over.

Thanks and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Are you always this obnoxious and petulant or did you just decide to be such today? The only post that I am aware of, in this thread, which was completely unnecessary and ruined anyone's reading pleasure was yours, not Karnsy's. The sentiment expressed by Karnsy's post is perfectly legitimate, and quite widespread, and is, indeed, a valid criticism. The sentiment is actually quite pervasive in the RS community and has been for quite some a defining characteristic of RS; namely that what made RS so unique as compared to other MMORGPS was its simplicity. There are plenty of MMORPG's that are more complex, and there always will be, but there aren't too many like RS. Furthermore, part of the simplicity was due to the nature of the game; it's a browser game, it was never able to match the other MMORPGS(which tended to resort on downloads rather browsers , and it still might, not in various areas. Thus, simplicity made sense. While Jagex is free to do as they please, to implement such a change at this point is a complete departure from one RS's founding principles and how it was developed and sustained over the years. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but it does mean that people who signed up to RS for that simplicity and spent years on it, having grown accustomed to it, will be naturally be upset. It's a legitimate grievance and they have every right to express it. Next time, actually try to think for a little bit before you resort to knee-jerk petulance and nonsense.

 

 

He may have been a little aggressive but he has perfectly valid points. People are starting to get tired of ignorant players who probably haven't even tried EoC constantly complaining about how detrimental the update will be to the RuneScape they know and love.

 

As others and Jagex themselves have said, RuneScape needs this kind of restructuring to the quite frankly archaic and very dated combat system. The game isn't bringing in as many new players as it used to and this will hopefully entice an influx of new players to start.

 

Quite simply, this update is going to happen and nobody wants to hear individuals saying Rs is dead, they are quitting, it's copying other games etc. If people care enough to complain then is it really that hard to ask them to at least provide some constructive criticism instead of repeating the same baseless and useless comment 1000x over?

 

Also, I'm not personally attacking you at all but would it hurt to use paragraphs in your posts? It's far easier to read when it isn't a giant wall of text.

[Yoko Kurama]

He may have been a little aggressive but he has perfectly valid points.

 

He was not merely somewhat aggressive, there was an explicit tone of condescension in his post, and he was overly rude. I know about being an aggressive poster; I'm an aggressive poster, and even I don't go around telling people(even those people whose opinions I deeply disagree with) that they have "ruined my reading experience", that they "shouldn't let the door hit them on their way out", that I don't "care about their opinion", and that they are knowingly being "ignorant". That sort of thing thing is beyond assertive posting and simply rude and unnecessary.

 

People are starting to get tired of ignorant players who probably haven't even tried EoC constantly complaining about how detrimental the update will be to the RuneScape they know and love.

 

As I stated earlier, any change of this magnitude will naturally be displeasing to people who prefer the status quo. There's nothing "ignorant" about that, that's a legitimate preference.

 

As others and Jagex themselves have said, RuneScape needs this kind of restructuring to the quite frankly archaic and very dated combat system. The game isn't bringing in as many new players as it used to and this will hopefully entice an influx of new players to start.

 

I personally am not opposed to the beta(though I do have concerns with how they are implementing it); in fact, I welcome this sort of thing. However, I understand this is a major departing from one of RS's most unique qualities. As such, I can understand why other people might not feel the same way as I do. I was here when they released the RS2 beta, and I tested that out for them too. And while I was quite in favour of that too, I understood and sympathized with others, who I knew would not feel the same as I did and would, in deed, miss "their" game.

 

 

 

Quite simply, this update is going to happen and nobody wants to hear individuals saying Rs is dead, they are quitting, it's copying other games etc. If people care enough to complain then is it really that hard to ask them to at least provide some constructive criticism instead of repeating the same baseless and useless comment 1000x over?

 

 

 

I do think that there's a purpose to saying things "RS is dying", or "I am going to quit". The first comment is not objectively true, of course. RS is still alive and may end up experiencing a surge of popularity. But it's definitely true in the subjective sense, RS as they know it and perceive it, is dying for them. As for the latter comment, that's been here since the dawn of RS, and it's a legitimate form of protest, it states, quite clearly to Jagex: "this update is unacceptable to me in its entirety, I don't want a tweak or two, here and there, I reject the entire premise itself, and I will quit if you pursue this". For such people, offering "constructive criticism" is meaningless, because it's not that they want the beta to be different, it's that they don't want a beta at all. If enough people felt as they did, Jagex would be forced to change their policy. It's basically a boycott, and while I don't share any of these sentiments myself, there's nothing wrong with them.

 

 

Also, I'm not personally attacking you at all but would it hurt to use paragraphs in your posts? It's far easier to read when it isn't a giant wall of text.

 

Duly noted, though I didn't think that one needed or could have been split into two paragraphs; I will endeavour to do better next time with regards to my paragraph splitting.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

OK maybe I was a little bit harsh, but games evolve with time, any game that does not change will ultimately die out.

 

I don't think these people are opposed to change in general; they are specifically opposed to this sort of change.Yes, change is absolutely necessary.

 

And the criticism that Runescape is trying to copy other MMO's is not valid, abilities and action bars have existed in games long before MMOs made there appearance on the gaming scene. That's like saying oh runescape is copying 'random MMO' because it's introduced summoning ... no there have been games for years that let you summon creatures to fight for you etc. not just MMO's.

 

 

 

It's not that people are upset that RS is copying other games as it is the kind of copying they are doing. RS(as well as most other MMORPGs) has always lifted other stuff from other games/place. It's just that the change that they are opposed to major copying of concepts which would fundamentally change RS.

 

Jagex have even introduced momentum to please these simplicity players, and plan on improving it further when EoC goes live by letting it randomly fire of an ability without so much as an action bar click by the player which would be equivalent to current rs combat with an added kick.

 

The change was implemented more or less, because even after this update, RS will retain some of its principle features: excessive grinding. For a lot of people, they aren't even against the beta, they like the change, but they don't want training to get overly complicated, because a part of RS has always been afking. Jagex, wisely, listened to these people. These sort of people are reformists; they want the beta to be somewhat different, but they are okay with a beta at the end of the day. The people whom we were talking about before, are not reformists, they don't want a beta at all of this sort.

 

So really nothing changed on the simple combat front.

 

This is not true at all; as even Jagex has admitted, the game, even with momentum, will have inexorably changed. Particularly with regards to most PVP(with the exception of staking with no specials/armour) and PVM boss areas.

 

-----

 

My personal preference is for the beta, of course, though I am somewhat sympathetic to those who don't share my view and oppose the beta.

[Urza285]

Ok, so said person's feelings are valid and his opinions are his and are technically not wrong. He feels eoc has ruined his experience as those, too , are his feelings so he has to deal with that.

 

Yada yada done.

 

The issue is he said runescape is like other MMO's.