2007 - Old School RuneScape... You Vote! - [It's Here!]

[Sy_Accursed]

Well on the hiscores the lvl 34 accounts we can safely assume are trialies run out at around about 780k, so it is safe to say they are in the ball park 780k accounts with membership with a margin of maybe 5k or so for recent unsubscribers yet to be removed.

 

And yes given the size of the runescape member base 150k is a small minority, a large minority would be a minority only marginally smaller than the majority, which given Jagex's statistics of 1.8m active accounts 150k is nowhere near.

[teknofield]

Well on the hiscores the lvl 34 accounts we can safely assume are trialies run out at around about 780k, so it is safe to say they are in the ball park 780k accounts with membership with a margin of maybe 5k or so for recent unsubscribers yet to be removed.

 

And yes given the size of the runescape member base 150k is a small minority, a large minority would be a minority only marginally smaller than the majority, which given Jagex's statistics of 1.8m active accounts 150k is nowhere near.

 

 

Your saying the same shit you said before. It's been proven wrong. IF you need more evidence go to Runescape.com forums and search the hundreds of threads who pointed this out point blankly.

 

Now prove to me there are 750k members.

[Sy_Accursed]

Well on the hiscores the lvl 34 accounts we can safely assume are trialies run out at around about 780k, so it is safe to say they are in the ball park 780k accounts with membership with a margin of maybe 5k or so for recent unsubscribers yet to be removed.

 

And yes given the size of the runescape member base 150k is a small minority, a large minority would be a minority only marginally smaller than the majority, which given Jagex's statistics of 1.8m active accounts 150k is nowhere near.

 

 

Your saying the same shit you said before. It's been proven wrong. IF you need more evidence go to Runescape.com forums and search the hundreds of threads who pointed this out point blankly.

 

Now prove to me there are 750k members.

 

It has not been proven wrong by any means, no-one has shown any imperial, verified evidence; just because whiney people scream and shout on the rsof and insist the number they pulled from thin air for the amount of bots is true does not make it a verified fact. I'm sure with a bit of coercion one could convince most of active tip.it users and staff to insist that bats dropped dragon chains, but it wouldn't be 'proof' or a 'fact' just because we all said it.

 

It is a fact that on the highscores the very obvious trial accounts end at around 780k

It is also a fact that to be on highscores one must be a member.

Therefore there is no logical conclusion other than there being in the ball park of 780k accounts with membership.

 

Certainly some a likely to be bots and such, but seeing as we have no hard data on the numbers of such we cannot prove what proportion there is and their being bots does not invalidate the fact that their account has members. Therefore the farthest we can take proof on this matter is that around 780k accounts with membership do exist.

[Nabbagad]

Nabbagad, they call us "Delusional" but they keep thinking there are 1.8 million member subscriptions. I proved them wrong a few pages back, but they won't understand. Mmany accounts are still on the Highscores list who aren't even members anymore! This is not even counting the trialists who are at least 1 million.

 

What is happening here is clear. They know EOCscape will go from 80k online users to 40k at peak time if not less and 60k to 20k at normal hours.

 

The reason why we will barely get to 250k, much less 750k, is that JaGeX does not have enough members.

 

 

It was a Marketing Ploy from the begenning.

Yep it was definitely a ploy.

 

Who is interested in 07scape?

Oh sorry, you're not a member of current runescape, therefore you obviously have no real opinion.

What's that? You were a member for 6 years? Oh but you're not a member now, so you have no real opinion. Oh btw, if you members get it to 750k votes we'll open it to f2p because they will definitely want to play BUT NO we refuse to hear from them!

 

 

The size of a minority or majority is relative to the whole.

In the context of runescape 150k is still a small minority.

 

Also I'd note no-one is actually arguing against it at this point, people are only 'arguing' (if we must use the term) against people making wild unsubstantiated claims be it tekno's delusional 'proof' of member numbers or people insisting it should be cheaper without reaching the threshold set without considering the costs required to run something like this.

 

Or most specifically many are arguing against the notion that we should all vote anyway to 'help out others' which many supporters insist upon, seeing as the vote is to gauge interest in playing so those of us with no intent to play certainly should not be voting to falsify the numbers and potential cause Jagex to launch it a threshold which is not financially viable which would in fact hurt the live game somewhat due to the lose inccured

"The size of a minority or majority is relative to the whole." That is a very shallow way of looking at it, can not be said for everything.

 

In the context of runescape, even though 150k players is a small minority, it is A LOT OF PEOPLE.

 

And there definitely are people arguing against it, I made some replies to some people in just the recent pages. (not saying that you are).

 

And the integrity of the vote is already false because Jagex are not letting everyone who would be interested in 07scape to express their interest. (and for the sake of not repeating myself later on, they are many ways Jagex could have let old members or f2p players vote without risk of cheating votes, and that's not directed at you personally, just others who still somehow fail to see that).

 

It isn't only win-win, if it was, we wouldn't be having a 57 pages long thread about it. Read the latest Tip.It Times article and you'll understand why we got this debate.

And yes, we who don't vote for this, will be affected as well.

I did read Tip.it Times and left a comment. Sorry, I don't understand how it isn't win-win?

[Nabbagad]

It has not been proven wrong by any means, no-one has shown any imperial, verified evidence.

It is a fact that on the highscores the very obvious trial accounts end at around 780k

It is also a fact that to be on highscores one must be a member.

Therefore there is no logical conclusion other than there being in the ball park of 780k accounts with membership.

 

Certainly some a likely to be bots and such, but seeing as we have no hard data on the numbers of such we cannot prove what proportion there is and their being bots does not invalidate the fact that their account has members. Therefore the farthest we can take proof on this matter is that around 780k accounts with membership do exist.

 

so 150/780 is still a small minority? That's 20%. A minority can be 49.999% or it can be 0.0001%.

 

20% isn't a "small" minority, it is just a minority. And since that 780k includes bots well, this "minority" is only getting bigger.

[Sy_Accursed]

Given the context where it is a binary of supporters vs people who do not support or do not care making it 20% minority vs 80% majority I would call 20% a small minority.

 

Certainly in a more complex system where the majority might only be 40% whilst assorted minorities make up the remaining 60% a 20% minority would be quite large; but again it is all a matter of context and in this case it is still a small minority compared to the majority.

[Steph]

Now prove to me there are 750k members.

 

Could you prove that there aren't? Asking for proof of either is a poor arguement both ways.

[Nabbagad]

Given the context where it is a binary of supporters vs people who do not support or do not care making it 20% minority vs 80% majority I would call 20% a small minority.

 

Certainly in a more complex system where the majority might only be 40% whilst assorted minorities make up the remaining 60% a 20% minority would be quite large; but again it is all a matter of context and in this case it is still a small minority compared to the majority.

But a minority is already the smaller part, so calling something a small minority is used to emphasise just how small it might be.

 

But we're not here to debate the meaning of 'minority' or 'small minority' so I'll leave it at that.

 

Going back to what is financially viable for Jagex:

 

If 50k people exactly voted and they are all willing to pay that fee, it will be financially viable. But if all the people who currently voted: 154k were to pay by the 250k option (which would generate more revenue for Jagex), that would not be financially viable? What? See why this argument even exists?

[Ginger_Warrior]

But then factor in all the people who voted for it on the basis that the tally would pass the 250K mark, or voted for it to support freedom for those who wanted 2007scape back. Neither of those groups would have any intention to play at $15/mnth.

 

I think this is an awful situation for Jagex, and considering they wrote the rules to this little game, they have only themselves to blame for a marketing ploy gone horribly wrong.

[Octarine]

It has not been proven wrong by any means, no-one has shown any imperial, verified evidence.

It is a fact that on the highscores the very obvious trial accounts end at around 780k

It is also a fact that to be on highscores one must be a member.

Therefore there is no logical conclusion other than there being in the ball park of 780k accounts with membership.

 

Certainly some a likely to be bots and such, but seeing as we have no hard data on the numbers of such we cannot prove what proportion there is and their being bots does not invalidate the fact that their account has members. Therefore the farthest we can take proof on this matter is that around 780k accounts with membership do exist.

 

so 150/780 is still a small minority? That's 20%. A minority can be 49.999% or it can be 0.0001%.

 

20% isn't a "small" minority, it is just a minority. And since that 780k includes bots well, this "minority" is only getting bigger.

Bots can still vote if told to, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Regardless I don't think the proportion of bots is that high anyway, it wouldn't make financial sense for botting companies to pay for bots they didn't use.

 

Perhaps Jagex realised that 780k was closer to the *real* number of members and set the highest margin at 750k for that reason.

[Melo]

Perhaps Jagex realised that 780k was closer to the *real* number of members and set the highest margin at 750k for that reason.

I've been thinking the same thing. Assuming the 780k figure is somewhat accurate, 750k votes would mean that "all" RS players would want 2007scape back, so the benefits would be thereafter. 500k votes would mean 2/3 of all paying members would want old RS back, so having no additional fee is natural (to me, at least). And so on. The thresholds Jagex set make a lot more sense with the 780k active, paying members figure.

[Barney.S]

Well on the hiscores the lvl 34 accounts we can safely assume are trialies run out at around about 780k, so it is safe to say they are in the ball park 780k accounts with membership with a margin of maybe 5k or so for recent unsubscribers yet to be removed.

 

And yes given the size of the runescape member base 150k is a small minority, a large minority would be a minority only marginally smaller than the majority, which given Jagex's statistics of 1.8m active accounts 150k is nowhere near.

 

 

Your saying the same shit you said before. It's been proven wrong. IF you need more evidence go to Runescape.com forums and search the hundreds of threads who pointed this out point blankly.

 

Now prove to me there are 750k members.

 

It baffles me how many 180's you've done in this thread. In the beginning of the voting process you 'proved' we will hit 750k in 2 weeks . Then a little while later you 'proved' how there is only 400k members. You have proved so many points in this thread that it is astonishing.

 

Why are we arguing if we are talking about a small minority or a big minority anyhow? The fact remains that it is indeed a minoritt who have voted, furthermore, it is even less when you consider that most of them will not want to pay 15$/month. So In any case, as it stands now, 2007Scape will be a more expensive game to play.

 

SO the more important question is that Jagex probably figured this will happen. So why did they make such a big fuss about it. The more I consider it, I would say they need more members to play EOC, so when they could just lure back some people to play 2007scape, some of them will come over to EOC after they realise 2007scape is dead.

 

The reason I think this is the case, is because that's what happened with me and a lot of my PKing buddies after RS2 came out. After about a year we realised that RSC is indeed thoroughly dead, we transfered to RS2. We adapted and changed, and isntead of Jagex losing us all, they did manage to keep us paying by keeping the dead game up and running.

[Nabbagad]

But then factor in all the people who voted for it on the basis that the tally would pass the 250K mark, or voted for it to support freedom for those who wanted 2007scape back. Neither of those groups would have any intention to play at $15/mnth.

 

I think this is an awful situation for Jagex, and considering they wrote the rules to this little game, they have only themselves to blame for a marketing ploy gone horribly wrong.

But there will people who aren't voting who would be interested in playing.

 

I agree with you on the second line though. I think Jagex just need to admit that they went about this the wrong way, and then implement the best solution.

[Nabbagad]

Bots can still vote if told to, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Regardless I don't think the proportion of bots is that high anyway, it wouldn't make financial sense for botting companies to pay for bots they didn't use.

 

Perhaps Jagex realised that 780k was closer to the *real* number of members and set the highest margin at 750k for that reason.

Do you think Bots will end up voting though? I have no idea. Considering that they will be unable to play both games at once I'd imagine they would mostly stick to main RS as it will have more people playing.

 

Edit; I know you said you wouldn't be surprised if they did, I meant that as more of a rhetorical question or for other people to answer.

[Ginger_Warrior]

The majority of bots are gold farmers, 2007scape presents a totally new market to exploit; why wouldn't they want a piece of that pie?

[Kaida23]

What if we allow FTP'ers to vote? The bot gates will open.

 

Fixed that for you. :P

 

As much as I'm disappointed that long standing F2P'ers were not permitted to vote (I've been playing since before 2007, how many current members can say that?), I think that if we were the vote would be horribly rigged by bots spamming votes.

 

When it comes to updated the RS07 servers, the ONLY update I could see them getting would be anti-bot measures, and I'm not even sure they should have that. RS07 was full of scammers and botters (not anywhere near what RS11 was, but they were still there). If that's the era you want back, then you've got to take the good with the bad.

 

edit: oh yes, before you all jump down my throat, the question above about how many members have been here since before 07 was rhetorical. ;)

[Nabbagad]

The majority of bots are gold farmers, 2007scape presents a totally new market to exploit; why wouldn't they want a piece of that pie?

Well what I was thinking, these gold farmers must have a maximum amount of bots at once right? For simplicity, lets say one gold farming company can only support 100 bots max. When 07scape comes out, they'll still only be able to support 100 bots, so what do they do?

 

They can keep all their bots in RS and be able to get lots of resource with lots of willing buyers (I'd assume) or they can send some to 07scape, where there currently will be no economy and there will be less players.

 

I don't know how it all works but am I correct to be thinking this way?

 

@Kaida: Jagex could easily implement a total level/xp requirement/joining date/previously was members filter on potential f2p voters to make it a fair vote.

 

Edit: Also I'm not implying that I don't think bots will find their way onto 07scape, but I think it will be less prevalent than the main game, and hopefully almost non-existent for a while.

[Begbie]

the number of current members is not as big a factor as some are making out.

 

what about the supposed tens of thousands of "retired" players who loved rs2007 so much? surely paying one months membership so they can vote, is a small price to pay for getting their beloved nostalgiascape back? i have seen people on this thread do exactly that.

 

and what about the people who play private servers? i saw a 6 digit number quoted many pages back. that would be enough to push the votes past 250k no problem.

 

Jagex are clearly proving a point here. everyone can now see how much interest there truely is in an old server.

 

having said that, from a business/financial point of view i think $15 is now excessive considering the number of people who have voted, and Jagex could comfortably make it $10 (assuming final total is under 250k).

[Mercifull]

but I think it will be less prevalent than the main game, and hopefully almost non-existent for a while.

I think it'll be the complete opposite. Botting will be epidemic in 2007 servers as people too impatient in the race to the top cheat their way up either by botting directly on their characters or real world trading gold. It wouldn't surprise me one iota if the first whip to be claimed was done so by a botter/goldfarmer and sold for irl money.

[MPM]

The majority of bots are gold farmers, 2007scape presents a totally new market to exploit; why wouldn't they want a piece of that pie?

Well what I was thinking, these gold farmers must have a maximum amount of bots at once right? For simplicity, lets say one gold farming company can only support 100 bots max. When 07scape comes out, they'll still only be able to support 100 bots, so what do they do?

 

They can keep all their bots in RS and be able to get lots of resource with lots of willing buyers (I'd assume) or they can send some to 07scape, where there currently will be no economy and there will be less players.

 

I would assume they would treat it like a new business venture and sink some money into new hardware to support new bots for 07scape. If it doesn't work out, they can use that hardware for whatever they are already using. If it does, the hardware pays for itself.

[Sy_Accursed]

Of course there will be no economy at first in 07scape.

 

Do you know what there will be lots of though?

Players who do not want to grind fishing and cooking to get food.

Players who do not want to grind mining and smithing to get armour

Players who do not want to grind slayer to get whips

Players who do not want to grind rc to be able to use magic.

etc.

 

Do you not what many of these players are likely to be willing to part with though? Money.

It's a bot makers ideal setup they send in the bots grind through to the high end resources and make a killing rwting stuff to Nostalgic kids with more money than sense that don;t really want to play 07scape - they just to immediately have everything to go pking.

 

Combine that with none of the modern bot prevention methods making bots easier to deploy and 07scape is a very appealing market to rwt botting setups.

[Mercifull]

Let's remember that they don't even have botwatch working in its limited form on 2007 servers yet at all. Only if it reaches 250k will Jagex actually do any work "possibility of integrating our modern anti-bot technology over time" and 500k to guarantee it "integration of anti-bot technology if necessary".

 

All the old injection/reflection bots are going to swarm back into the game and people will be powerless to stop them.

[Sy_Accursed]

Continuing on from my last post, but slightly tangentially: I think, even now, a lot of people aren't fully grasping what the 0 game status will mean. Of course they've made comment about whips and getting the stats to pk but very few seem to of even considered the factor of all the other supplies the average pker would just buy in.

 

I mean literal ground 0 game you are not going to be able to buy anything and even if you make goods you aren't gonna be able to directly sell them because theres gonna be very little gp about. People are going to be scrambling to get together bronze armour and some shrimp before they can even consider moving far beyond Lumbridge; and then they have the long road to scrap their way up to rune and lobsters to go and hopefully horde in some bones to train prayer so that you can survive the barrows to try and get some good gear. But lets not forget before you can even train prayer that well you will need to face hours upon hours of the ectofunctus or show how scrap together supplies to face the money sink that is construction. (After all construction was a big money sink when it was released even if inflation has lessened it; in a ground 0 world construction supplies are going to be like life savings for even a few measly things).

 

All told this is why 07scape is kinda doomed in my opinion - at best it'll be botted to kingdom come and people will be able to get by via rwters; at worst it's going to burn out faster than a half used match as people realise they do not want to do all this training, especially in a world where it is made like 10 times harder because there is no initial supplies or gold to be had.

 

Sure a miracle could happen, but some how I doubt a community predominantly formed of at best people who not really thought it through at worst whiny, quit at the drop of a hat, blinded by nostalgic delusions types its going to manage to sustain itself.

[Reliable]

People need to just accept that people will complain about this no matter what. Even if Jagex has enough money from these 2007 servers to benefit the main game 10-fold people will still [bleep] and complain, it's just how the Runescape community is.

 

This is also why people will keep with this "minority" argument. If the votes hit 500k people will still say it's a minority using the 1.8m number at that point. This is an argument you can't win, due to the general rs population being so damn stubborn and threatened regarding this 2007 implementation.

 

Face it, alot of people WANT to play this 2007 server. They KNOW this server has no GE, no summoning, no LRC, no Span, etc. This is why most of us WANT TO PLAY IT. Saying we'll quit due to it is simply laughable. We KNOW there is no economy, we KNOW people will have to grind mining/smithing, slayer, etc before these items come in. This is why we're EXCITED. Personally, I'm incredibly excited because I WANT to grind out mining / fishing very fast, to be one of the top miners/fishers in the game, and start the supply of fish / ores / armour / whips etc to the community.

 

This argument and incredible bitterness to the 2007 servers shows the exact reason why alot of people don't like the current RS community. People can't just let people do what they enjoy. They have to criticize how they play, tell them what they're allowed to enjoy, and downgrade people's accomplishments just because their viewpoint is different. A pure example is that whole Green with her 'inefficient' style of playing. Because it's inefficient, she shouldn't be doing it, regardless of if it is fun to her.

 

Let people play the way they want to for pity sake lol.

[Sy_Accursed]

I would point out my post was not a argument against 07scape servers, it was simply an observation of what I have observed thus far in debates pertaining to what the 0 day world will be like.

 

I find it quite tiring that posting anything but sunshining out of your butt praise on this thread is immediately tagged as being an argument or bitter or negative towards 07scape; the vast majority of the posts since the vote begun from people who aren't pro 07scape have just been observational or thoughts yet keep getting jumped on as attacks about people's choice play style or complaints or w/e.