Behind the Scenes - November 2013

[Aiel]

 

 

Except that it is realistic to get a few bil entirely without flipping, merchanting, or getting lucky. If your income is 4m gp/hour, it's 250 hours to get 1b. That's the same as 99 divination.

 

 

Laughable, not even remotely realistic.

The biggest problem with Runescape is the big ticket items.

You drop one and your set.

You buy all your skills with one drop.

you're right, 4m/hr isn't even remotely realistic. A maxed combat player can make 6-8m/hr at DKs, so it'll take 50-75% of the time of a SINGLE 99. It's completely realistic to make the money for seismics etc. off of non-luck based PvM. 

[helring]

 

 

 

Except that it is realistic to get a few bil entirely without flipping, merchanting, or getting lucky. If your income is 4m gp/hour, it's 250 hours to get 1b. That's the same as 99 divination.

 

 

Laughable, not even remotely realistic.

The biggest problem with Runescape is the big ticket items.

You drop one and your set.

You buy all your skills with one drop.

you're right, 4m/hr isn't even remotely realistic. A maxed combat player can make 6-8m/hr at DKs, so it'll take 50-75% of the time of a SINGLE 99. It's completely realistic to make the money for seismics etc. off of non-luck based PvM. 

 

 

Thats part of the issue. Its still PvM. If PvM made a bit more, I'd say fine, there's some supplies you pay in and a bit of risk now, still not much risk since gravestones, but a bit. Seismics being so much more than any skiller can reasonably make is bs. Part of what we need is not just seismics being cheaper but also skills being more valuable. Skills are broken at the moment. They can either fix that by making methods to earn top end gear while skilling, tradeable or untradeable I don't really care, or they can take away the skilling item drops from bosses and PvM in general, or just make some skilling items that would be worth obtaining.

[Hedgehog]

 

 

 

 

Except that it is realistic to get a few bil entirely without flipping, merchanting, or getting lucky. If your income is 4m gp/hour, it's 250 hours to get 1b. That's the same as 99 divination.

 

 

Laughable, not even remotely realistic.

The biggest problem with Runescape is the big ticket items.

You drop one and your set.

You buy all your skills with one drop.

you're right, 4m/hr isn't even remotely realistic. A maxed combat player can make 6-8m/hr at DKs, so it'll take 50-75% of the time of a SINGLE 99. It's completely realistic to make the money for seismics etc. off of non-luck based PvM. 

 

 

Thats part of the issue. Its still PvM. If PvM made a bit more, I'd say fine, there's some supplies you pay in and a bit of risk now, still not much risk since gravestones, but a bit. Seismics being so much more than any skiller can reasonably make is bs. Part of what we need is not just seismics being cheaper but also skills being more valuable. Skills are broken at the moment. They can either fix that by making methods to earn top end gear while skilling, tradeable or untradeable I don't really care, or they can take away the skilling item drops from bosses and PvM in general, or just make some skilling items that would be worth obtaining.

 

I don't think you can reasonably introduce top end gear through skilling unless you make it require at least like 150 hours of work. Anything else would just make all of the other weapons useless.

[Fallstar]

 

You're maxed, aren't you? Or am I thinking of someone else?

 

If so, I'm not sure how you don't already understand that to achieve the best things in this game, you have to work.

Nobody here is expecting to have the best things handed to them. They just want the amount of effort it takes to make sense.

 

No.

 

The best things in the game should be unobtainable to the vast majority of people, whether it be the rarest gear/items, ranks etc...

 

The game shouldn't be the thing which imposes a hard cap on player achievement - it should provide all across the board and allow players to choose the level that is comfortable for them.

 

The fact that we have hard coded limits at all is more the problem IMO.

[Lord Zophar]

 

 

You're maxed, aren't you? Or am I thinking of someone else?

 

If so, I'm not sure how you don't already understand that to achieve the best things in this game, you have to work.

Nobody here is expecting to have the best things handed to them. They just want the amount of effort it takes to make sense.

 

No.

 

The best things in the game should be unobtainable to the vast majority of people, whether it be the rarest gear/items, ranks etc...

 

The game shouldn't be the thing which imposes a hard cap on player achievement - it should provide all across the board and allow players to choose the level that is comfortable for them.

 

The fact that we have hard coded limits at all is more the problem IMO.

And why is that? So people like you, who are completionists, can stroke their e-peen to their precious exclusive pixels while mocking everybody who doesn't have 2500 hours to spend grinding?

 

People, this is a bloody [bleep]ing game, it is not a job. Making "the best things" so ridiculously unobtainable is counterproductive to the goal of keeping people interested (and thus, paying you as the developer). Instead, it discourages them; I mean, most of us look at the 2.4 billion price tag Seismic Wand has and say "Why the hell should I even bother trying to get that? I'll never get there." In order for anybody to feel compelled to work towards a goal, they have to be able to visualize themselves eventually obtaining that goal. Many, if not most of us see how much some of that t90 gear costs and just can't imagine ever having that amount of wealth.

 

People play video games to chase the sense of fulfillment that comes from eventually "winning" or beating them. If people aren't expected to ever come close to getting the "best things" in this game, why even bother?

[Fallstar]

If you can't make the money for a seismic wand, then don't aim for a seismic wand.

 

I am not sure what you find so difficult about this idea?

[Alg]

What's the point of making content that only a handful of people are actually going to play? Especially when it unbalances the rest of the game as a result, because there may as well not be T90 magic?

 

How is that good game design, again?

[Lord Zophar]

If you can't make the money for a seismic wand, then don't aim for a seismic wand.

 

I am not sure what you find so difficult about this idea?

I am not aiming for a seismic wand. Because I know that I will never realistically obtain one.

 

That doesn't mean I am not bitter about the fact that I will never obtain one, since it means I will never truly have the best gear.

[Lord Zophar]

It also unbalances the game because magic has a significant advantage in pvm with Metamorphosis. Mages with seismic weapons are completely dominant wherever they go.

 

Were they to give Ranged an equivalent ability to dish out damage at that rate as a group, things would be far more balanced and it would not really matter that t90 magic is out of reach for everyone but the 1% (and, in fact, it would probably bring the price of the wand down quite a bit as a result). And if you say "derrrr use Death Swiftness" I will smack you.

[Fallstar]

What's the point of making content that only a handful of people are actually going to play? Especially when it unbalances the rest of the game as a result, because there may as well not be T90 magic?

 

How is that good game design, again?

 

It is good game design. There was a boss fight in a DA2 dlc which was found by fewer than 5% of players, and was so difficult fewer than 10% of those who found it completed it and obtained the rewards. Did Bioware decide this meant they should stop making this kind of content? No, they conducted a feedback poll and found overwhelming support for the presence of that content, as even the players who did not experience it or could not complete it appreciated that it was there, and that there was aspirational content present. The issue with RS players is they have a sense of entitlement, that they should be able to get the best gear. Well, no, the majority of players shouldn't  be able to.

 

Incidentally, the same argument is what is holding us back from truly divergent storylines in game. Players and game developers need to move past the idea that content needs to be seen and played by all players. It doesn't. Thankfully most high quality developers are now doing so.

[Lord Zophar]

 

What's the point of making content that only a handful of people are actually going to play? Especially when it unbalances the rest of the game as a result, because there may as well not be T90 magic?

 

How is that good game design, again?

 

It is good game design. There was a boss fight in a DA2 dlc which was found by fewer than 5% of players, and was so difficult fewer than 10% of those who found it completed it and obtained the rewards. Did Bioware decide this meant they should stop making this kind of content? No, they conducted a feedback poll and found overwhelming support for the presence of that content, as even the players who did not experience it or could not complete it appreciated that it was there, and that there was aspirational content present. The issue with RS players is they have a sense of entitlement, that they should be able to get the best gear. Well, no, the majority of players shouldn't  be able to.

 

Incidentally, the same argument is what is holding us back from truly divergent storylines in game. Players and game developers need to move past the idea that content needs to be seen and played by all players. It doesn't. Thankfully most high quality developers are now doing so.

 

So, because one developer decided to do it in one game (a game, by the way, which received far more negative reviews than its predecessor) that makes it a good idea?

 

Also there's a difference between making content the majority can't do and making content that ONLY a statistically insignificant minority can do.

 

I'd have no problem with the best gear being several hundred million. That's STILL out of reach for most players. But BILLIONS? For ONE ITEM? That's out of reach for ALMOST EVERYBODY. Ultimately, that says to me that they did not balance the rarity of the item correctly. If anything is worth more than the maximum amount of gold, it needs to be more common/easily obtainable.

[Fallstar]

DA2 not being in the same class as DAO is not relevant to the point - that triple A developers are putting content in their games that is only found and completed by small %s of their playerbase.

 

Very very good gear should be several hundred million. The absolute best should be obtainable only to the statistically insignificant minority you refer to.

[Alg]

So, because one developer decided to do it in one game (a game, by the way, which received far more negative reviews than its predecessor) that makes it a good idea?

 

Also there's a difference between making content the majority can't do and making content that ONLY a statistically insignificant minority can do.

 

I'd have no problem with the best gear being several hundred million. That's STILL out of reach for most players. But BILLIONS? For ONE ITEM? That's out of reach for ALMOST EVERYBODY. Ultimately, that says to me that they did not balance the rarity of the item correctly. If anything is worth more than the maximum amount of gold, it needs to be more common/easily obtainable.

To be fair, it's predecessor did the same thing in both the base game and each of its DLC, to the point of giving you some fairly broken items across every save you have if you managed it. You could potentially end up starting a new character who has endgame items for every class (Including one that you could sell for enough gold that you'll never have to worry about money), though s/he'll only be able to use some of it before then. By the time you get them, you don't need them.

 

That sort of thing really only works if players feel that they have a chance to unlock it, though. They're side rewards for players that want more. These sorts of items in Runescape, on the other hand, are arguably the main goal: the developers want you to be a completionist/boss hunter. If the main goal isn't meant to be accessible to everyone, there's no point, especially if they're going to balance future content on the assumption that players have access to these items. And with the way this game and community works, you might still need them to stay competitive even in the lower tiers.

 

Not to become a broken record, but I wouldn't have any issue with it if it wasn't the only real end goal, or if there wasn't only one way to reach it. Once again, it's an extreme: they went from rewarding dedicated players to essentially locking out anyone but the most dedicated.

[Sy_Accursed]

^ and that's only if you define 'most dedicated' as happy to grind of hours at non-boss pvm based money making and/or do general pvm and/or merch regardless of their enjoyment of it.

 

Really its less to do with with dedication - there's plenty with that - and more to do with what you enjoy in the game.

[Hedgehog]

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

[Sy_Accursed]

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

 

Why do pvmers want max skills when they don't like anything but pvm?

Why do people who dislike questing still want comp cape?

etc.

 

People like to 'complete' the game - part of that is getting the best of everything.

Plus just because it isn't your favourite thing doesn't mean you won't do it from time to time anyway, but there is a difference between doing it once in a while with friends and being forced to grind it for hours to have any hope of affording stuff when in all reality all aspects of the game ought to be giving similar profitability.

[strilmus]

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

 

by that argument, people who PvM shouldn't even be able to get any of the best skilling equipment and skilling sourced items available without investing months past 99 in getting them, because they clearly don't deserve those things otherwise

 

I mean, it would be RIDICULOUS if something like say, the best hatchets and pickaxes were only available through monster drops

 

(although this may become true in the future, given the previews)

[Urza285]

Someone pointed out the winning comment: aspiring content. Thats what jagex is aiming for and everyone is labeling it as elitist, too high level, etc. Its only negstive if you let it be. Another player made a good point about the death penalty as being archaic. That is true in regards to losing things. I am content with degrade costs being doled out for other gesr as well.

[helring]

Someone pointed out the winning comment: aspiring content. Thats what jagex is aiming for and everyone is labeling it as elitist, too high level, etc. Its only negstive if you let it be. Another player made a good point about the death penalty as being archaic. That is true in regards to losing things. I am content with degrade costs being doled out for other gesr as well.

 

This gear isn't aspirational content. Aspirational content was Comp Cape, Comp Trim, the proposed prestige system. Things that legitimately probably wouldn't benefit you much but players would support anyway. Its level 90 gear thats going to be outclassed later and is currently worth over max cash to get even 1 item of it. Drygores aren't unreasonable. Ascension crossbows are getting there but still not terrible. Seismics are ridiculous. It unbalances the combat triangle when its like this where one type is so much harder to get ahold of. It also shows how broken actual skilling is as to gaining money.

[helring]

DA2 not being in the same class as DAO is not relevant to the point - that triple A developers are putting content in their games that is only found and completed by small %s of their playerbase.

 

Very very good gear should be several hundred million. The absolute best should be obtainable only to the statistically insignificant minority you refer to.

 

I loved DA:O, I really enjoyed DA2 for all its faults. However, balancing a single player game and an MMO are completely different animals. Your party in DA:O didn't care what weapons or armour you have, they wouln't say "nope, you can't come because your gear is awful". They didn't care whether you had the best, you're in control. That boss, I'm assuming the bone pit dragon...if not plase correct me, wasn't even really that hard anyway, and you beat it its dead, you've got the drop and can move on. Thats not what happens here at all, you don't get to move on with your new wand once you've beaten vorago once.

 

Vorago was annoying for me, but I didn't complain when it was required for my comp trim, because I only really had to do that once and I was done. If it was once and done for the drop then bossers would hate it because you'd get basically no cash from it, so the best thing they can do is increase the drop rate to put the wand back to a reasonable price. Not saying bossers shouldn't be paid something for their work, just not the more than max cash stack we currently have.

 

Lastly, I couldn't find the stats for Dragon Age 2, but found the stats Bioware gave for Mass Effect 2, half the characters that started the game never finished it. I'm not really surprised that only 5% of accounts ever found the bone pit dragon when you consider people quitting the game, changing characters, rushing through for achievements, etc.

[RSDwaynee]

 

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

 

Why do pvmers want max skills when they don't like anything but pvm?

Why do people who dislike questing still want comp cape?

etc.

 

People like to 'complete' the game - part of that is getting the best of everything.

Plus just because it isn't your favourite thing doesn't mean you won't do it from time to time anyway, but there is a difference between doing it once in a while with friends and being forced to grind it for hours to have any hope of affording stuff when in all reality all aspects of the game ought to be giving similar profitability.

 

 

Can agree with you that everyone wants the best stuff ofcourse - but part of what makes things the best is the 'grind' behind getting it... the easier it is to get, the more it gets devalued not just economically. 

If all aspects of this game were balanced, I assume your talking pvm wise here.. were would the fun be in that?

Also do remember Vorago takes at least 5 people, if a wand was 200m or whatever you claim as a reasonable price it wouldn't really be worth the time/ effort at all. 

[helring]

 

 

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

 

Why do pvmers want max skills when they don't like anything but pvm?

Why do people who dislike questing still want comp cape?

etc.

 

People like to 'complete' the game - part of that is getting the best of everything.

Plus just because it isn't your favourite thing doesn't mean you won't do it from time to time anyway, but there is a difference between doing it once in a while with friends and being forced to grind it for hours to have any hope of affording stuff when in all reality all aspects of the game ought to be giving similar profitability.

 

 

Can agree with you that everyone wants the best stuff ofcourse - but part of what makes things the best is the 'grind' behind getting it... the easier it is to get, the more it gets devalued not just economically. 

If all aspects of this game were balanced, I assume your talking pvm wise here.. were would the fun be in that?

Also do remember Vorago takes at least 5 people, if a wand was 200m or whatever you claim as a reasonable price it wouldn't really be worth the time/ effort at all. 

 

 

It wouldn't be worth the effort at current drop rate. But if they increased the drop rate it might still be worth your time and available to more players.

[Fallstar]

 

 

Lastly, I couldn't find the stats for Dragon Age 2, but found the stats Bioware gave for Mass Effect 2, half the characters that started the game never finished it. I'm not really surprised that only 5% of accounts ever found the bone pit dragon when you consider people quitting the game, changing characters, rushing through for achievements, etc.

 

 

Incidentally, those stats were about this, not the high dragon.

[helring]

 

 

 

Lastly, I couldn't find the stats for Dragon Age 2, but found the stats Bioware gave for Mass Effect 2, half the characters that started the game never finished it. I'm not really surprised that only 5% of accounts ever found the bone pit dragon when you consider people quitting the game, changing characters, rushing through for achievements, etc.

 

 

Incidentally, those stats were about this, not the high dragon.

 

 

Ahhh, k. Thanks for letting me know. Been a while since I played and could only remember bone pit boss off the top of my head. Same idea though, its still a one time and done thing. 

[Sylpheed]

Jagex are just [bleep]ing awful at game balance. As long as they continue to make different bosses with varying levels of difficulty that drop same tier equipment, they'll never get it right.

 

It's the typical example of them still thinking they know best about how people play their game and therefore what content they want.

 

The original barrows and Nex are the two best pieces of PvM content they ever released because both drop items for all three styles, making the prices of each relatively uniform.

 

Vorago was just poorly implemented. He is considerably stronger and more time consuming than KK, so naturally it makes sense that his drops would cost more. That's not the issue, the issue is Jagex not putting their idiot heads together to realise that Vorago should have been a T95 boss, not 90.

 

Anyone who is fine with, or agrees that max cash for Seismics is good game design seriously needs their head examined. Nothing about it is even remotely sensible.

 

Time and time again Jagex shoot themselves in the foot by not thinking ahead. This is all T90 equipment, so not true endgame. I'd love to see someone with level 90 combat stats get into a team for Vorago or even KK and get the items aimed for their level.

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realise that Jagex's balancing team must consist entirely of retarded chimps.