Behind the Scenes - November 2013

[Ambler]

I don't get the complaints about Vorago, yes it's the most difficult boss, but if you have a team of friends who are willing to learn and with decent gear, you should be able to take it down with a few tries and coordination, then as time goes on, you get more people willing to join your teams, and you can set up a team when ever you feel like it, or be allowed to join other teams, as you're well known. That or have a friend who already has a permanent team sneak you in. :lol:

 

If you can't afford the gear, kill a lower tiered boss till you can afford to. I guess 'scape has a PvM ladder

 

Vorago t80+ (when dpsing) A lot of learning, a lot of teamwork, a lot of profit.

Nex t80- A bit of learning required, teamwork is helpful, though not needed, 5-10m/hour

KK t80- Not much learning, teamwork helps a lot, 5-10m/hour

Various GWD - t75-80 3-5m/hour?

Mole/KBD/(Frosts?) - t70-80 gear. No idea on costs.

 

And I'm going to say this, you do not need Seismics for Vorago, I've used vwand/book since release, and when base tanking I used drygores before that. If you're willing to bomb tank you can get away with any mage/range weapon. :lol: Chaotic Staff is actually okay too.

 

Seismics are only the price that they are because more people are not willing to learn how to Vorago. It was the same with Nex drops for the first while after release, but then it became easier to get teams. That should happen with Vorago too soon.

[Sylpheed]

It will only happen with Vorago when/if they fix coinshare.

 

Also, it's not an issue of difficulty for me, it's an issue of Jagex not making the difficulty of bosses that drop same tier items consistent with each other.

[V O R K]

Fixed prices/Highest offer = coinshare.

 

This will still make the wand remain at max cash and people will still just sell it in trade for over max cash.

[Sylpheed]

Fixed prices/Highest offer = coinshare.

 

This will still make the wand remain at max cash and people will still just sell it in trade for over max cash.

Alternatively, it would mean people who aren't in PvM clans would actively seek to make teams if they knew they'd be getting a cut that was more than the G.E price of said items, meaning more would come into the game.

[V O R K]

Why aren't they now? Have you ever checked out RSOF - Teamwork?

[Yoko Kurama]

Why aren't they now? Have you ever checked out RSOF - Teamwork?

 

Because currently, the only viable way to do Vorago is to do it in LS (if you do CS, you will have to accept the pitiful CS price which is... very low). And what kind of right-thinking person would trust a forum stranger to split a 2B drop with them? So it greatly incentivizes people from doing Vorago, since it's risky to trust forum strangers with splitting them, and the prospect of a no splits for this rather difficult boss probably isn't too interesting. Some are willing to risk it, many are not. It's true that if the CS is fixed, the price will still be below the  current market price, and this will encourage some to do FFA+S or LS+S if they have a trustworthy team, but for a lot of people a 2.1B drop is a good enough CS reward. Also, if the CS price is bumped to maxed cash, as more people do CS teams, it will not only increase the supply of wands, but it will cause the market price (non-GE price) to crash to 2.147B because everyone will know that they can put in an offer for 2.1B on GE and get it filled in time (since CS drops go on GE, and are sold for the highest offer, and the highest possible offer is 2.1B -- it will place a ceiling on the price of Wands). So why would they pay several hundred million more than that in a direct trade? They wouldn't. It will force the price down.

[Yoko Kurama]

Seismics are only the price that they are because more people are not willing to learn how to Vorago. It was the same with Nex drops for the first while after release, but then it became easier to get teams. That should happen with Vorago too soon.

 

That's not true, the part about Nex drops. The Nex drops were worth max cash or more for each single drop upon release because the drop rate was so low that everyone just gave up and left except a few people. As soon as Jagex announced a much better drop rate, Nex was flooded with teams, and the drops became affordable (if you did Nex) in no time at all. The increased drop rate was crucial. That was the thing with Nex, Jagex saw a problem, listened to the community, and moved in no time at all (less than a month I think) to implement a very good solution/fix. With Vorago, it's been months and only now are they getting close to doing something about it.

[Urza285]

You guys sure know how to beat the hell out of a dead horse.

[Sylpheed]

You guys sure know how to beat the hell out of a dead horse.

Please learn your idioms before you use them. It's an issue that hasn't been resolved or been elaborated upon by Jagex by giving a final solution.

 

If you have nothing to contribute, don't bother to post.

[Ambler]

Yay for randomly joining a jmod fc in the hopes of someone being in there. :lol:

 

It's also 500 energy + boxed barrows set for pet, and you can apparently loot them straight off from a chest too, but obviously rarer,

[Golvellius]

 

What's the point of making content that only a handful of people are actually going to play? Especially when it unbalances the rest of the game as a result, because there may as well not be T90 magic?

 

How is that good game design, again?

 

It is good game design. There was a boss fight in a DA2 dlc which was found by fewer than 5% of players, and was so difficult fewer than 10% of those who found it completed it and obtained the rewards. Did Bioware decide this meant they should stop making this kind of content? No, they conducted a feedback poll and found overwhelming support for the presence of that content, as even the players who did not experience it or could not complete it appreciated that it was there, and that there was aspirational content present. The issue with RS players is they have a sense of entitlement, that they should be able to get the best gear. Well, no, the majority of players shouldn't  be able to.

 

Incidentally, the same argument is what is holding us back from truly divergent storylines in game. Players and game developers need to move past the idea that content needs to be seen and played by all players. It doesn't. Thankfully most high quality developers are now doing so.

 

 

DA2 you mean dragon age 2?

That game was such shit that most people put it down after they found out it was crap compared to the first and the story line was just trash and couldn't carry it. 

So looking at who found what isn't really going to tell you much.

[Tansuo]

[hide=]

 

What's the point of making content that only a handful of people are actually going to play? Especially when it unbalances the rest of the game as a result, because there may as well not be T90 magic?

 

How is that good game design, again?

 

It is good game design. There was a boss fight in a DA2 dlc which was found by fewer than 5% of players, and was so difficult fewer than 10% of those who found it completed it and obtained the rewards. Did Bioware decide this meant they should stop making this kind of content? No, they conducted a feedback poll and found overwhelming support for the presence of that content, as even the players who did not experience it or could not complete it appreciated that it was there, and that there was aspirational content present. The issue with RS players is they have a sense of entitlement, that they should be able to get the best gear. Well, no, the majority of players shouldn't  be able to.

 

Incidentally, the same argument is what is holding us back from truly divergent storylines in game. Players and game developers need to move past the idea that content needs to be seen and played by all players. It doesn't. Thankfully most high quality developers are now doing so.

 

 

[/hide]DA2 you mean dragon age 2?

That game was such shit that most people put it down after they found out it was crap compared to the first and the story line was just trash and couldn't carry it. 

So looking at who found what isn't really going to tell you much.

 

 

Buying evidence.

 

Why do people consistently insist that skillers should have access to the top end gear, when the top end gear is for pvm, not for skilling. Granted things like Dragon Hatchets/Pickaxes should be obtianable through skilling, but by no means should skilling be a way to obtain the top end gear. Theoretically, skillers should have no use for PVM gear, they're called skillers for a reason, not pvmers. 

[helring]

The story line and characters in DA2 were pretty good. The repeated maps were crap, and it was obviously rushed though. The DLC's though were pretty good and they seemed to learn from some of the mistakes. The main issue was DA:O was in development for 5 or 6 years. It was pretty highly polished and worked really well on release. DA2 was given like a year of dev time.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

You guys sure know how to beat the hell out of a dead horse.

Please learn your idioms before you use them. It's an issue that hasn't been resolved or been elaborated upon by Jagex by giving a final solution.

 

If you have nothing to contribute, don't bother to post.

 

 

Also, since a CS update in on the books for this month, the discussion is completely relevant to this thread.

 

 

 

Yay for randomly joining a jmod fc in the hopes of someone being in there. :lol:

 

It's also 500 energy + boxed barrows set for pet, and you can apparently loot them straight off from a chest too, but obviously rarer,

 

500 energies for a pet? I thought it was 50? And 50 was pricey enough as it is. That looks exorbitantly price for a cosmetic pet... 3000 energies for all 6? Ridiculous. Assuming that Jagex will require 84 energies to make one melee armour set, to keep it in line with 84 energies being used for Tectonic, and 84 scales being used for Sirenic. 

[Alg]

Buying evidence.

 

Why do people consistently insist that skillers should have access to the top end gear, when the top end gear is for pvm, not for skilling. Granted things like Dragon Hatchets/Pickaxes should be obtianable through skilling, but by no means should skilling be a way to obtain the top end gear. Theoretically, skillers should have no use for PVM gear, they're called skillers for a reason, not pvmers. 

Because as it is, skilling is so unbelievably useless that I can barely think of an analogy to make about it (see: elder bows), and because there were never many people that stuck entirely to one group or the other even in Ye Goode Olde Days. Even now, the developers seem to want players to be good at everything. Why not have the gameplay reflect that?

[helring]

 

Buying evidence.

 

Why do people consistently insist that skillers should have access to the top end gear, when the top end gear is for pvm, not for skilling. Granted things like Dragon Hatchets/Pickaxes should be obtianable through skilling, but by no means should skilling be a way to obtain the top end gear. Theoretically, skillers should have no use for PVM gear, they're called skillers for a reason, not pvmers. 

Because as it is, skilling is so unbelievably useless that I can barely think of an analogy to make about it.

 

 

Currently pvm'ers can easily obtain everything for skilling but skillers cannot easily obtain everything for pvm. Its an issue that needs to be addressed.

[Sy_Accursed]

 

 

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

 

Why do pvmers want max skills when they don't like anything but pvm?

Why do people who dislike questing still want comp cape?

etc.

 

People like to 'complete' the game - part of that is getting the best of everything.

Plus just because it isn't your favourite thing doesn't mean you won't do it from time to time anyway, but there is a difference between doing it once in a while with friends and being forced to grind it for hours to have any hope of affording stuff when in all reality all aspects of the game ought to be giving similar profitability.

 

 

Can agree with you that everyone wants the best stuff ofcourse - but part of what makes things the best is the 'grind' behind getting it... the easier it is to get, the more it gets devalued not just economically. 

If all aspects of this game were balanced, I assume your talking pvm wise here.. were would the fun be in that?

Also do remember Vorago takes at least 5 people, if a wand was 200m or whatever you claim as a reasonable price it wouldn't really be worth the time/ effort at all. 

 

 

No-one is saying get rid of the grind or bottom out prices. We are talking of balance across the entire game.

As it stands you merch or you pvm or you don't make that kind of money.

 

Merching shouldn't be quite so profitable really, or more restricted, to many because its kinda stupid you can stand around for 5 mins not really 'playing' and become far richer than those who do play the agame actively.

Equally skills need something in them to compare to pvm for cash flow, and all the top end stuff shouldn't be entirely pvm exclusive (eg d picks and d hatchets are even dictated by pvm)

Only a very minor part of it is stuff 'costing to much' - that's almost exclusively an issue with Seismic.

 

The trouble is it is unfair that you put a bit of effort in to one branch of the game and can be set for your entire rs career off a drop or two, whilst other branches you can slog for months or years at the top end and make virtually nothing. This is a game where they actively promote playing your way and not having to do everything if you don't want to; but you can't do that at all in the end game because pvm vs skills is horribly unbalanced.

 

But yes, since you brought it up, there does need to be a level of balance within pvm itself. As eoc is fundamentally based on everything within a tier being equal it is a major issue that drygores are only 150m, ascensions 250m and seismics 1bil. Especially as we move forward and (hopefully) garner more monsters with higher defences that have weaknesses that make it necessary to observe class, if not exact, weaknesses to optimise dps.

[Lord Zophar]

Yay for randomly joining a jmod fc in the hopes of someone being in there. :lol:

 

It's also 500 energy + boxed barrows set for pet, and you can apparently loot them straight off from a chest too, but obviously rarer,

Dafuq? FIVE HUNDRED?

 

When you get FOUR per completion, distributed across a team? That's a bit absurd, lol. As long as the armor isn't anywhere close to that, I guess I don't really care.

[V O R K]

Currently all those pvmers accumulated everything for days, weeks, months, years on end to attain the neccesary skills in the first place.

 

Attack, strength, defence, prayer, HP, Range, Magic, Herblore, Summoning, Smithing/Construction/Dungeoneering (repair costs/various useful buffs)... Various skills for quest items, A LOAD of quests (which involve skills). 

 

By the way, you can start rcing nats at 45 which is roughly 3-6m per hour depending on your concentration, do that for 2-3 hours and you can buy full bandos and go to GWD coupled with a chaotic staff from Dungeoneering. If you're consistent (though i'd suggest keep on skilling) you can make enough there to get Nex sets and then you're basically set with the right combat level/skills/neccesities. This is with low levels in mind, if you all have been on this game for so long I have no clue what you've been doing with your money.

 

Otherwise sure DPS-wise virtus will beat Seasinger, nontheless I solo in Seasinger longer then with virtus, I pk in the wilderness with seasinger and tanking in seasinger is so much better, most teams are fine if you come in Seasinger (just know what's up). Skills have their use, they should get more use and rewards but skills are a means to the end ;)

[Lord Zophar]

I don't get the complaints about Vorago, yes it's the most difficult boss, but if you have a team of friends who are willing to learn and with decent gear, you should be able to take it down with a few tries and coordination, then as time goes on, you get more people willing to join your teams, and you can set up a team when ever you feel like it, or be allowed to join other teams, as you're well known. That or have a friend who already has a permanent team sneak you in. :lol:

 

If you can't afford the gear, kill a lower tiered boss till you can afford to. I guess 'scape has a PvM ladder

 

Vorago t80+ (when dpsing) A lot of learning, a lot of teamwork, a lot of profit.

Nex t80- A bit of learning required, teamwork is helpful, though not needed, 5-10m/hour

KK t80- Not much learning, teamwork helps a lot, 5-10m/hour

Various GWD - t75-80 3-5m/hour?

Mole/KBD/(Frosts?) - t70-80 gear. No idea on costs.

 

And I'm going to say this, you do not need Seismics for Vorago, I've used vwand/book since release, and when base tanking I used drygores before that. If you're willing to bomb tank you can get away with any mage/range weapon. :lol: Chaotic Staff is actually okay too.

 

Seismics are only the price that they are because more people are not willing to learn how to Vorago. It was the same with Nex drops for the first while after release, but then it became easier to get teams. That should happen with Vorago too soon.

Most people on my Vorago team simply range him with ascension bows. The biggest advantage that magic has is multiple people can gain the +50%, whereas only one at a time can gain it with ranged.

 

Still a work in progress, as we only recently became able to kill him but thus far we have mastered Scorpulus phase and are improving on the others. Last night was the first time we tried Vitalis for the first time since becoming able to kill Vorago. We nearly succeeded on the first attempt, and did succeed on the 2nd attempt. Overall, we got 2 out of 4 kills.

 

One thing that concerns me is that Vorago is pretty much a 1 team per world boss-- you can't crash it. So, once it becomes popular, finding a world is going to be difficult. Unfortunately, this means many people will have to resort to using the instance thing which is ridiculously expensive.

[helring]

Currently all those pvmers accumulated everything for days, weeks, months, years on end to attain the neccesary skills in the first place.

 

Attack, strength, defence, prayer, HP, Range, Magic, Herblore, Summoning, Smithing/Construction/Dungeoneering (repair costs/various useful buffs)... Various skills for quest items, A LOAD of quests (which involve skills). 

 

By the way, you can start rcing nats at 45 which is roughly 3-6m per hour depending on your concentration, do that for 2-3 hours and you can buy full bandos and go to GWD coupled with a chaotic staff from Dungeoneering. If you're consistent (though i'd suggest keep on skilling) you can make enough there to get Nex sets and then you're basically set with the right combat level/skills/neccesities. This is with low levels in mind, if you all have been on this game for so long I have no clue what you've been doing with your money.

 

Otherwise sure DPS-wise virtus will beat Seasinger, nontheless I solo in Seasinger longer then with virtus, I pk in the wilderness with seasinger and tanking in seasinger is so much better, most teams are fine if you come in Seasinger (just know what's up). Skills have their use, they should get more use and rewards but skills are a means to the end ;)

 

Your suggestion to us mentioning that the game needs fixing it to just use the overpowered content...

 

Yes, PvM'ers did earn the few skills that they use, however so did the skillers. The PvM'ers can use their skills to make billions, the skillers are lucky to make hundreds of millions, thats part of the issue. The game is skewed too far towards bossing. You mentioned nats making 3-6m per hour, I'll have to check into that because I haven't in years but what method is that?

[Yoko Kurama]

 

[hide=]

 

What's the point of making content that only a handful of people are actually going to play? Especially when it unbalances the rest of the game as a result, because there may as well not be T90 magic?

 

How is that good game design, again?

 

It is good game design. There was a boss fight in a DA2 dlc which was found by fewer than 5% of players, and was so difficult fewer than 10% of those who found it completed it and obtained the rewards. Did Bioware decide this meant they should stop making this kind of content? No, they conducted a feedback poll and found overwhelming support for the presence of that content, as even the players who did not experience it or could not complete it appreciated that it was there, and that there was aspirational content present. The issue with RS players is they have a sense of entitlement, that they should be able to get the best gear. Well, no, the majority of players shouldn't  be able to.

 

Incidentally, the same argument is what is holding us back from truly divergent storylines in game. Players and game developers need to move past the idea that content needs to be seen and played by all players. It doesn't. Thankfully most high quality developers are now doing so.

 

 

[/hide]DA2 you mean dragon age 2?

That game was such shit that most people put it down after they found out it was crap compared to the first and the story line was just trash and couldn't carry it. 

So looking at who found what isn't really going to tell you much.

 

 

Buying evidence.

 

Why do people consistently insist that skillers should have access to the top end gear, when the top end gear is for pvm, not for skilling. Granted things like Dragon Hatchets/Pickaxes should be obtianable through skilling, but by no means should skilling be a way to obtain the top end gear. Theoretically, skillers should have no use for PVM gear, they're called skillers for a reason, not pvmers. 

 

 

Because that was the explicitly stated purpose behind skills? That they should help you by providing you with the armour and other items and resources needed for combat? That there should be a symbiotic relationship between combat skills and other skills? And when the game was first designed, it was precisely this way (the best armour in the game, runite, was exclusively obtained by skilling, and the wealthiest person in game was a skiller - and this skiller alone controlled the supply of runite armour in the game). It's only recently been taken for granted that skills are useless and should be useless cause we will all just chase 99 capes and ranks. Before that it was obvious to everyone that skills should, you know, actually be useful. 

[Ambler]

http://www.twitch.tv/runescape

Barrows update being streamed now, but jmod hax are happening.

 

Energy is called "Malevolent Energy"

[Yoko Kurama]

Interesting that even the game developers can only stream it in the best gear in the game as well as Jagex hax. That should have given them a hint as to the difficulty of this. And all the other rules seem super annoying.

[Miss Lioness]

 

 

 

I don't think I understand why someone would want top tier weapons and armor if they don't like pvm

 

Why do pvmers want max skills when they don't like anything but pvm?

Why do people who dislike questing still want comp cape?

etc.

 

People like to 'complete' the game - part of that is getting the best of everything.

Plus just because it isn't your favourite thing doesn't mean you won't do it from time to time anyway, but there is a difference between doing it once in a while with friends and being forced to grind it for hours to have any hope of affording stuff when in all reality all aspects of the game ought to be giving similar profitability.

 

 

Can agree with you that everyone wants the best stuff ofcourse - but part of what makes things the best is the 'grind' behind getting it... the easier it is to get, the more it gets devalued not just economically. 

If all aspects of this game were balanced, I assume your talking pvm wise here.. were would the fun be in that?

Also do remember Vorago takes at least 5 people, if a wand was 200m or whatever you claim as a reasonable price it wouldn't really be worth the time/ effort at all. 

 

 

No-one is saying get rid of the grind or bottom out prices. We are talking of balance across the entire game.

As it stands you merch or you pvm or you don't make that kind of money.

 

Merching shouldn't be quite so profitable really, or more restricted, to many because its kinda stupid you can stand around for 5 mins not really 'playing' and become far richer than those who do play the agame actively.

Equally skills need something in them to compare to pvm for cash flow, and all the top end stuff shouldn't be entirely pvm exclusive (eg d picks and d hatchets are even dictated by pvm)

Only a very minor part of it is stuff 'costing to much' - that's almost exclusively an issue with Seismic.

 

The trouble is it is unfair that you put a bit of effort in to one branch of the game and can be set for your entire rs career off a drop or two, whilst other branches you can slog for months or years at the top end and make virtually nothing. This is a game where they actively promote playing your way and not having to do everything if you don't want to; but you can't do that at all in the end game because pvm vs skills is horribly unbalanced.

 

But yes, since you brought it up, there does need to be a level of balance within pvm itself. As eoc is fundamentally based on everything within a tier being equal it is a major issue that drygores are only 150m, ascensions 250m and seismics 1bil. Especially as we move forward and (hopefully) garner more monsters with higher defences that have weaknesses that make it necessary to observe class, if not exact, weaknesses to optimise dps.

 

 

Some stuff are a bit off:

Drygores dual are 150m while Ascension single are indeed 250m so set is 500m. Seismics are 2,5b for wand alone and singularity 900m. Still the point remains the same =3...

 

 

Currently all those pvmers accumulated everything for days, weeks, months, years on end to attain the neccesary skills in the first place.

 

Attack, strength, defence, prayer, HP, Range, Magic, Herblore, Summoning, Smithing/Construction/Dungeoneering (repair costs/various useful buffs)... Various skills for quest items, A LOAD of quests (which involve skills). 

 

By the way, you can start rcing nats at 45 which is roughly 3-6m per hour depending on your concentration, do that for 2-3 hours and you can buy full bandos and go to GWD coupled with a chaotic staff from Dungeoneering. If you're consistent (though i'd suggest keep on skilling) you can make enough there to get Nex sets and then you're basically set with the right combat level/skills/neccesities. This is with low levels in mind, if you all have been on this game for so long I have no clue what you've been doing with your money.

 

Otherwise sure DPS-wise virtus will beat Seasinger, nontheless I solo in Seasinger longer then with virtus, I pk in the wilderness with seasinger and tanking in seasinger is so much better, most teams are fine if you come in Seasinger (just know what's up). Skills have their use, they should get more use and rewards but skills are a means to the end ;)

 

Your suggestion to us mentioning that the game needs fixing it to just use the overpowered content...

 

Yes, PvM'ers did earn the few skills that they use, however so did the skillers. The PvM'ers can use their skills to make billions, the skillers are lucky to make hundreds of millions, thats part of the issue. The game is skewed too far towards bossing. You mentioned nats making 3-6m per hour, I'll have to check into that because I haven't in years but what method is that?

 

 

Graahking is the fastest method I know, well besides tabbing but tabbing is time spent gathering the tabs and thus is less money/h because one should take account of the time spent =d