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Saradomin_Mage

Death System Rework

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Originally posted by Mod Hunter in the RSOF

[qfc]16-17-324-65568632[/qfc]

 

Hey everyone,

 

We are well aware of many problems with the current death system. Subject to your feedback, these are changes we will be making. Of course with changes to such a central area of the game we don't want to make any changes without you, the players, being happy with them.

 

This system will introduce several benefits over the current gravestone system, with the key points:

  • Items will no longer be lost due to disconnections
  • We will be able to allow one free death when we're aware of server issues, based on when you died
  • There will be no rush to return to the location you died
  • We will introduce a gold sink to help the game economy
Please note that this post contains simple information that's relevant to the core of the system. The FAQ has additional details about the system and why this approach was chosen. Any responses to common player questions will also be posted there!

 

Replacement gravestone mechanics

 

Initially it's worth mentioning that these mechanics only apply where your death would normally result in a gravestone. This means that dying in PVP, the wilderness and safe areas remain unchanged.

 

Instead of getting an interface automatically opening on death to select items to protect you will immediately respawn in Death's office, where Death will be holding all of your items.

 

You can speak to Death to get your items back, but this will come with a cost.

 

Speaking to Death will open the interface below. In this case a player died with rune equipment, which they want to keep. This player has decided they don't need to get their food back, so they will lose it, however it also makes it cheaper to get their items back.

 

LXfyGCY.png

 

Image displaying an example death. Note that the prices in our development environment are different to the live game. Click for full size.

  • Protected items: These are saved for free, and are calculated in the same way as normal - by default you protect three items, the protect item prayer can allow an additional item as can a sign or portent of item protection.
  • Saved items: A percentage of the items value is required to get it back - this is covered in more detail later.
  • Lost items: A percentage of the items value is granted for sacrificing this item, greater than the cost for saving it - this is also covered in more detail later.
  • Saved items (bottom): These are the items which are always protected on death.
There's a chance that you won't have the coins available to reclaim your items, but this is not a problem. You can leave and return at any point! This allows you to head to the Grand Exchange and sell some items or spend some time making money.

 

Be warned, though. If you die and lose items a second time everything Death is holding will be lost and replaced with the new items. Additionally Death is not known for his patience. He will only hold on to your items for 3 days before disposing of them.

 

Gravestones provided up to 60 minutes to get your items back in real-time, meaning if you died at 2:12 you would not be able to get items back after at 3:12. Death chooses to work differently, counting only days that you have logged in. This means you could die on the 5th, next log in on the 10th and still have 2 days available. On the final day you will also have 10 minutes of in-game time available to reclaim your items, and warnings to let you know about this at each stage.

 

Once you've decided what you want to lose and what you want to keep selecting confirm will open up an extra confirmation panel to ensure you're happy with your choices.

 

GUSnCFQ.png

 

Item confirmation panel.

 

After confirmation and payment all of your items will automatically be returned and equipped if possible. If for any reason you can't equip the items they will be sent to your bank.

 

Changes to existing content

 

There is a lot of content which is designed around the current death system which we would like to retain the current value it has, so the following changes will be made to existing content.

 

Gravestones

 

 

Gravestones themselves will remain in-game, but more as a marker of "Player died here". Their timers will be reduced to a couple of minutes, and all you will be able to do is read them.

 

Instead, your level of gravestone will reduce the overall price you pay to reclaim your items.

 

o34hEVq.png

 

These percentages are low as gravestones provide a permanent reduction with a one-off cost, which will be recouped over a long-term period.

 

Signs of respite

 

Signs of respite were previously used to extend a gravestones timer, which means players used multiple at once. In order to retain value for this item they will instead take a set amount away from the cost to reclaim your items.

 

These initial values are based on the current exchange prices of the materials required to make them, and may change at a later date.

 

GkU5Kll.png

 

You will be able to use a dropdown menu to select up to 10 signs of respite to use, which will be used in the order of highest to lower tier.

 

Death's deal

 

If death's deal was active when you died, the cost to reclaim all degradeable items will be reduced by 50%. You will not be able to purchase death's deal if Death is still holding your items.

 

Degrading items

 

As previously mentioned, the current degrade on death mechanic will be removed.

 

This applies both to degrade to dust and repairable equipment.

 

Degrading on death was initially added to introduce a cost to death, which is now introduced game-wide and so is no longer necessary, removing the inconvenience of repairing items more frequently and potentially making degrade to dust items more desirable, as you can guarantee you get your full 10 hours worth of combat.

 

Item values

 

The price you will pay to get your items back is going to be one of the most important parts of the system, and the area with the biggest impact on how you approach dangerous game content. Unfortunately this section needs to be math-heavy, so tables summarising costs with existing equipment sets have been provided for those not interested in the finer details.

 

There's a large difference in low and high priced items, which means a static percentage has very little impact on untradeable equipment with lower costs or general low-cost items, and as such the percentage value to reclaim an item changes depending on the value.

 

To get the initial cost for an item its Grand Exchange price is taken if tradeable, or its protection value if untradeable. These are also unchanged from the live game. The cost to reclaim an item will scale from an initial value of 10% of this GE value towards a minimum cost of 1% for any items worth 10M or more.

 

See the below tables for a more practical comparison. The first table shows the current cost of fully repairing degraded items without protecting anything, while the second displays the new comparative value based on the new system.

 

QrJPcXY.png

 

The above table displays the amount of gold dying in certain equipment sets would cost in equipment recharging costs.

 

y0ov4r8.png

 

The above table displays the amount of gold to be expected based market values at time of writing.

 

^Value is based on Nex equipment, with an additional cost per piece of equipment.

* All individual pieces of equipment are values higher than 10M, so use the 1% value.

 

Throughout both of the above tables there are various variables not taken into account:

  • Both systems can have items protected for free
  • Both systems can be impacted by Death's Deal
  • Smithing level can have an impact on repairing costs
  • Gravestones will reduce the final value of the new system
  • Signs of respite can be used to reduce the final value of the new system
Another table comparing equipment sets will hopefully make the impact much easier to understand.

15Sen0K.png

 

FAQ

Additional details

 

Why change death so much? Losing items when disconnecting is all that's wrong with gravestones!

 

Losing items when disconnecting is a major problem with gravestones, however it is the perfect opportunity for us to resolve the secondary problem of death otherwise having very little penalty for most players.

 

There are very few situations in which returning to a gravestone before the timer expires is difficult, let alone risky, and that's without signs of respite or another player blessing your grave. Unless you have degradeable equipment the only real penalty is a slight inconvenience in returning to where you died.

 

We could make it more difficult to get back to your grave, but the items players die with have so much more value now than prior to gravestones so losing items on death no longer seems suitable. We wish to replace this with a penalty which scales with the equipment you're using, rather than only punishing players using higher tier equipment.

 

What about using another mechanic instead?

We have spent a lot of time looking into various death mechanics which we would be able to utilise, Each of which have their own drawbacks and benefits.

 

Some of the most viable have been:

• Equipment losing durability, payment required for repair.

• Short-term stacking debuffs.

• Returning to the location of death, without any fast-travel options available.

 

Each of these come with their own drawbacks:

• Making all degradeable equipment is simply not feasible at the moment, and it would also be game changing in many other ways.

• Stacking debuffs are very difficult to get right.

• Debuff is too small, you continue fighting ignoring the debuff - effectively no penalty.

• Debuff is too big, you can no longer do what you were doing until the debuff wears off.

• With the amount of non-combat content available in RuneScape a debuff is also easy to ignore.

 

This is largely what we currently have, though this adds little other than a time penalty and makes most sense in conjunction with the other ideas, rather than on its own.

 

Will this be removing death as an item sink?

Prior to gravestones death was a significant item sink, however outside of disconnections few items are now lost on death so the amount of items removed by death shouldn't have much impact. Item sacrificing, a time limit to reclaim and the requirement to reclaim all items at once are all designed to give a reason to opt-in to item sinking.

 

Additionally, prior to gravestones the most expensive combat equipment was either dragon or barrows. While that was never nice to lose, a lot of content which has been released since has much higher prices and can take much longer to obtain so the same type of mechanic would be much more punishing now.

 

It's best for us to focus on other ways of sinking items over the long-term, such as how the wildy wyrm weapons have been designed.

 

What about bossing teams? Bosses such as the Kalphite King can insta-kill!

Bossing is largely a matter of risk vs reward, a large amount of bosses will generate enough reward to still be worth risking dying for under the new system. We currently have tracking in place to see how active certain activities are, so if certain bosses have a dip in activity we will be able to react and make changes as necessary.

 

I was thinking of learning to boss, but now it will be much more expensive.

The "Boss Practice Mode" revealed by retention team 1 recently will be able to alleviate this issue. Free or safe death could be available in practice mode, so you can learn the bosses mechanics and try it for real once you're confident.

 

What about server issues?

In a situation where a server is having connection problems we intend to have a hotfixable system to enable no-cost reclaiming. The world number and time of death will be recorded so that only players who died within the specific time period are able to reclaim for free. This will be limited to one free return per hotfix, to limit the potential of any risk-free farming.

 

How do I know how much an item costs to save/sacrifice?

In one regard the current deathkeep interface will be updated to reflect the new values, so you will be able to see a representation of the cost to reclaim without needing to die.

 

Within the item reclaiming interface you will also be able to gain additional information from tooltips, displaying how much an item is worth in both cases, and an overall summary of what the total cost was.

 

SnFAnrA.png

Item tooltip for the previous image, detailing how much the item costs, including any per-item discounts.

 

fv16q89.png

Item tooltip for the total cost, detailing how the final value is calculated.

 

For the players who are interested in the mechanical aspects, the order of calculation for final price is:

Base price: The amount to save.

Death's deal reduction if used.

Gravestone percentage reduction.

Sign of respite reduction if used - will stop using signs as soon as value hits 0.

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[bleep] off Jagex. Nobody is going to do stuff like ROTS where half of the time you die to complete BS that's not in your control. On the original RSOF post, everyone was bashing on Mod Hunter's idea because it was bad, and nothing as really changed.

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“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”

“Mmmhmm.”

 

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The idea is definitely interesting. I don't really do a lot of (read: any) dangerous bossing so the only times I die are due to my own stupidity. Dying in RuneScape isn't particularly risky anymore anyway due to gravestones and whatever those divination items are which is why most armour that isn't degradable is so cheap. But this doesn't really solve that problem, instead it addresses the issue of too much gold floating around. If anything it will likely just put off mid-level players with small cash piles from attempting to do PvM.

 

I guess this emphasises the whole "Don't use what you can't afford to lose" aspect of PvM. Maybe Jagex are hoping people buy Bonds if they can't afford to save their stuff.


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So to "too long; didn't read" this...let's make an insanely complicated system which is essentially just a tax to recover items when you die, degrading items on death was a bad idea after all, and give a free death when servers inevitably mess up for the nth time.

 

They're essentially just going to throw out gravestones then...


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If anything it will likely just put off mid-level players with small cash piles from attempting to do PvM.

Then again, they kind of picked stupid setups to show what the losses are going to look like for different 'classes'. No mid-level is running around in barrows and steadfasts, or a dragon chain/full helm combo. Regardless of that hiccup, it does seem like it'll have more of an effect on mid-levels fighting quest bosses than on wealthy boss hunters.

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*raises arm* so, if I'm reading this right, will it be possible to just carry mass quantities of noted junk as death insurance?

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*raises arm* so, if I'm reading this right, will it be possible to just carry mass quantities of junk as death insurance?

Artificially price-inflated junk, yes, probably. Junk as in throwaway items with low G.E. value probably would not yield recompense since sacrifice value should be beneath G.E. value.


"Fight for what you believe in, and believe in what you're fighting for." Can games be art?

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*raises arm* so, if I'm reading this right, will it be possible to just carry mass quantities of noted junk as death insurance?

 

 

Broad arrows. They have a deceptively high value for an untradable item.

 

 

817c99cc4d.png

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“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”

“Mmmhmm.”

 

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Well, the advent of junk trading as we knew from 76king will be back then, I guess?

 

yes, but with a different intent, which isn't as destructive to the game

 

as the current proposed idea for signs of respite are just garbage (why would you even create them if they're the same [bleep]ing value as the ingredients, when you can just carry the ingredients), I think they should also offer percentage based discounts (like, 1% and 2%)


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Why Jagex?!?!?!?!

 

Please just fix the network and server lag issues! On the main page outlining the changes, this was a response to the network issues!!! Jagex is saying that we wont work on the network and lag issues, but we will just make it easier on you when you die.................

 

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN?!?! GRR.....

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Why Jagex?!?!?!?!

 

Please just fix the network and server lag issues! On the main page outlining the changes, this was a response to the network issues!!! Jagex is saying that we wont work on the network and lag issues, but we will just make it easier on you when you die.................

 

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN?!?! GRR.....

 

Because it's Jagex  :rolleyes: . It takes at least a couple months-years to fix things. See: EoC, FPF, SoF, Effigyscape, Crucible, ...


"Fight for what you believe in, and believe in what you're fighting for." Can games be art?

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Now, the next time I die because of server issues, instead of being frustrated, I can be proud that I'm helping remove gold from the economy. What a wonderful idea!

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I dont mind the change in the system. As a pro it will remove degrading. But equally as a con it removes our ability to stall repair costs. So now with these changes when you die you need the funds to reclaim the items within that three day period.

 

I am not enthusiastic about having everyone go to death for their graves and items. I think this might be a slight pro to having to get to taugher spots like the inner chambers of GWD. This could open things up for them to create some kinds of liniar pvm progression like WoW. I remember having suggested something loke this ages ago.




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Why Jagex?!?!?!?!

 

Please just fix the network and server lag issues! On the main page outlining the changes, this was a response to the network issues!!! Jagex is saying that we wont work on the network and lag issues, but we will just make it easier on you when you die.................

 

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN?!?! GRR.....

 

 

Because the lag and dc'ing is due to DDOS attacks and not just poor servers. They can and probably are fighting those, but its not as simple as "just fix the server"


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Why Jagex?!?!?!?!

 

Please just fix the network and server lag issues! On the main page outlining the changes, this was a response to the network issues!!! Jagex is saying that we wont work on the network and lag issues, but we will just make it easier on you when you die.................

 

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN?!?! GRR.....

Because the lag and dc'ing is due to DDOS attacks and not just poor servers. They can and probably are fighting those, but its not as simple as "just fix the server"

Lol jagex explains the issue and why its happening...

 

Moments later players are like... WHY!?!?!!




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Full corpse looting everywhere pls

 

 

 

*raises arm* so, if I'm reading this right, will it be possible to just carry mass quantities of noted junk as death insurance?

 

 

Broad arrows. They have a deceptively high value for an untradable item.

 

 

817c99cc4d.png

 

ahahahah, thanks, i'll be carrying millions D:


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Basically I have several issues and questions regarding this proposed system. First of, the question: Can we still pick what we keep? It is weird to see the Dragon Dagger up there, while the Rune Platebody is worth more.

 

Moving on to the issues:

As stated before, the value of the Sign of Respite is way to low. A fixed value would be essentially a good idea, but the difficulty is balancing the price to make the Sign of Respite with the value of the Sign. Is the marked flooded enough for the price to stay low? Notwithstanding that one would also lose an inventory slot per Sign carried which could potentially be up to 2300 ish LP carried instead. Could that made the player stay alive if it hit the problem of running out of food? These are all choices players need to make, but Jagex needs to take into consideration that players always try to trick the system (as evidenced by the Broad Arrows idea).

 

Next issue I have is the relatively low % taken of when using a better gravestone. I am of opinion it should be a tad higher, up to 10% instead. Do not forget that when using for example T90s, the value is easily in the 10s of millions if using the weapons. 5% of that is often just a drop in comparison to the price needed to pay.

 

Another issue is the Barrows degrade value versus the rest of the gear. The should just slash this value in half, so mid-tier people do not need to pay more than those who use higher tier gear.

In overall I have huge issues with relating the price of the cost to the GE as it can be manipulated. Rather use the price that one would have lost if they had to repair it instead. So for example (values are not realistic, I know), full ports armour (helm, body, legs) costs currently 5m to repair the set. When someone dies he/she pays X%. For example 10%, of this value in the new system would be 500k. That is without any discounts by grave system etc.

 

They could balance the price to pay by changing the %. It allows for a much more stable and yet more flexible system.

 

The last major issue I have with this system, is that there is no way to reclaim everything for free. For example by placing the Gravestone on the spot you died so you could optionally go to your gravestone and access the goods here. This would be only the case in specific areas like High level PvM and in difficult to reach places (like GWD). Once again, this would be quite easy to balance, just only take the places of high-risk bossing like ROTS, KK, Legiones, QWD, (No max portal here), QBD (disable shortcut here then?), DKS (No max portal to tele), [email protected] and quest bosses where there would otherwise be a gravestone. Those are the only location that I can think of where a system like this should be implemented; an option to reclaim everything for free, like it is now. The problem then is, what is the cost? But that can be discussed rather easily.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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Or what the do is make your gravestone last 2-5 minutes, and if you make it back and bless your gravestone in that amount of time, you get a 25-50% discount on the degrade cost.


19509_s.gif

 

“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”

“Mmmhmm.”

 

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Or what the do is make your gravestone last 2-5 minutes, and if you make it back and bless your gravestone in that amount of time, you get a 25-50% discount on the degrade cost.

 

yeah, but that would involve going back to the spot, tapping the grave, and then going back to death to retrieve your items

 

i was considering a "death insurance" type of thing where you could take out a short term protection policy with death for a cost based on your combat level that would only work before you died


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Jagex could just sell insurance as a tax, i.e. pay 1M and 50M of your equipment is protected and held safe scotch-free, which rolls over for subsequent deaths...or something like that.


"Fight for what you believe in, and believe in what you're fighting for." Can games be art?

---

 

 

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My blog here if you want to check out my Times articles and other writings! I always appreciate comments/feedback.

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Or what the do is make your gravestone last 2-5 minutes, and if you make it back and bless your gravestone in that amount of time, you get a 25-50% discount on the degrade cost.

 

yeah, but that would involve going back to the spot, tapping the grave, and then going back to death to retrieve your items

 

 

And you cannot die in the meantime. Perhaps automatically teleport you to Death then? But I like the idea for it to offer a huge discount insead.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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Can't say I'm a fan of this proposal.

 

Yes death needs to be reworked and yes we need a money sink, but this just seems like a horribly flawed system.

 

The uber rich folks who really need gp siphoned off are suitable good enough at bossing to not die much and thus won't be hit really.

Meanwhile those of us who struggle and save and work hard to get some decent gear to even have a shot at trying out some high end pvm content are going to be hit by death bills that we can't afford to pay easily so we'll get 1 shot then have to go back to mindless grinding to try and garner enough gp to get our gear back before we die again.

 

Seems like a design that punishes the poor for being poor, without really effecting the rich and adds another hurdle to learning to pvm.

Not very good but wanna learn? Good all you need is to beg borrow and steal to get expensive gear, then quite probably pay out obscene amounts to a good team for them to even look at teaching you unless you happen to have friends. But oh no your not very good so you died...guess you best go beg borrow and steal to get your gear back and then do it again to pay for another team to teach you.

 

Plus I'm not a fan of the way it kind makes all deaths and recovery from them an even playing field.

As it stands what grave you did or did not buy, what back up gear you have and your knowledge of how to get around all play a factor in retrieving your gear when dying - particularly at lower levels.

Die in a far flung corner and it is a moderate challenge to get back in time, get killed by a goblin outside lumby and its nothing.

 

I feel like there could be a better solution involving the idea of ghosts/resurrection that many games play with.

Like when you die you become a ghost for X time.

Make it so you can pay death to be instantly resurrected with a choice of where you died or at a hub. Apply the charging mechanic to this - more/better gear means more cost to come right back.

Meanwhile if you just exist as a ghost until time expires you re-spawn with a gravestone for gear (maybe spawned in a graveyard rather than at deathsite?)

Maybe work in a 'get back to your grave and instant respawn for free' sub-system to add that challenge.

 

That way the rich sob will happily turf out a few mil here and there to get a do over, whilst the poorer people can simply wait out a few minutes of being unable to do much.

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Full corpse looting everywhere pls

 

 

 

*raises arm* so, if I'm reading this right, will it be possible to just carry mass quantities of noted junk as death insurance?

 

 

Broad arrows. They have a deceptively high value for an untradable item.

 

 

817c99cc4d.png

 

ahahahah, thanks, i'll be carrying millions D:

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read this... Items for martyr!


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It's kinda easy to blame all server connectivity problems on DDoSing, when the problem exists on almost all servers for more than 3 months, with large lag/DC spikes daily at 0 to 2AM GMT. 

The Drop however is certainly DDoSing.

 

Also, I hate this idea for a grave rework, it's far too punishable for every non-elite person who tries to (learn a) boss.

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