Tip.It Times - 6th March 2011

[Racheya]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

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[/hide]

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

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Enjoy the articles!

[langer]

First article : I've suggested separate servers, a ban from the highscores and various other punishments (trade ban, skill reset and an XP ban - for example, mining goes back to lvl 20 can only use a mith pick, can't get XP for 3 months... and so on..). I would like some punishment to bots and not have 20% of the active population to be bots.

 

Second article: Tip.it has balls... I finally see an article that could could be a big kick in the hornet's nest. Although I expect the quiet treatment from Jagex, this will pull even more the opinion of tip.iters that Jagex are desperate for cash and the cynicism will grow. I would like the Gowers to provide a statement regarding Jagex's finances or position on bots, RWT and such. I don't trust anyone else at this point.

[Pirkka]

I can't seriously see putting botters on their own servers as an option that would work. But to be honest, I don't have any better suggestions to give, other than using the ban hammer a lot more than they do now.

 

For the second article, it's quite depressing and actually it might even be true. The future will tell us if RuneScape really is in an uncontrollable downward spiral.

[iiLy]

There will be no solution for bots.... ever. Jagex will not switch from Java script..... ever. The only way to fully stop botting would be to make the game a down-loadable game similar to WOW, guild wars or lineage. If you have ever used a bot. You know that it sets up in a separate window, almost like a proxy and plays Runescape off of that, it does not play off of Mozilla or Google chrome or internet explorer. (I once used one out of curiosity and never did again, my net xp gain from botting is around 175k wc xp and no money). If RS stopped being a browser game then bots would be incapable of existing in the way that they do now. Botting would be possible again in time but it would give Jagex the time needed to get the edge on the programmers, not to mention that the more complicated script of a down-loadable game such as WoW is harder to bot, which is one of the reasons that there are many less bots on WoW then RS. Though this will most likely never happen this would be the only way to end the majority botting.

[Assume Nothing]

I did kind of enjoy this week's articles. I'm undecided on whether putting botters on a dedicated cheat server is a good idea. However, it does offer a new idea, by thinking outside the box for once.

 

Article about JaGex in it for the cash: Looks good from the first few paragraphs, will reread later

[Helm_Lardar]

A solution to botters? I swear I saw the answer to this on the times, but here goes.

 

Captchas don't work.

Random Game-Changes (e.g. move inventory) don't work.

Pattern-finding software doesn't work.

Temporary game-changes for mass bans don't work very well. (e.g. move LRC rope to a portal for one day).

 

All of the above merely irritate legitimate players, while botting technology slowly gets better at them.

 

The answer lies in random events. Update the events. Change the events around. Regularly increase the random events, and don't tell anybody. Simply allow these frequent updates to take place every week, and that way no botting program will ever be safe, so long as nobody knows what events to program against.

 

2. So Jagex are working on a replacement for Runescape? Fair enough. A shame it's got to happen, but hopefull I will have full bandos, an enhanced excalibur, and have completed While Guthix Sleeps by the time it's released. RS is going to reach its shelf life soon enough (in 5 year's time, I doubt it will be played much), so yeah...hopefully the new MMO will be fun to play :) .

[dragon246665]

I thought that the first article was interesting, but it seems almost too good. I mean, a lot of people would probly switch from "real" runescape to the secondary runescape, just imagine, being able to buy any item for mid price on the g.e. Party hats would be everywhere! Overall a very interesting read though.

[Fairness]

Giving players the option to RWT? That's BS. I don't care if they get on a separate server, I would still feel cheated if certain players would be able to prance around with 200M without having worked for it, and would be able to do so legally.

 

Now, about the other article, I have to agree with the points raised. I hadn't even known about that Raine and Spectrum investment bit, so I was really disappointed myself when I read that. Not since the removal of free trade could I say that RS has truly started dying, and I'm afraid this change won't be undone in 3 years. But if I consider the latest developments, I must say that one could have foreseen that. Updates are getting worse, and this is not just the whiny ranter speaking out of me. In fact, I have appreciated almost every update in the history of RS in one way or another - the second one that broke this rule (again, after 2007) were the Wildywyrms - a poor effort, badly thought out, no reward, only flashy graphics to it. Now they throw another Bonus XP weekend at us to keep the mob happy. Other than gratifying casual 11 year olds who couldn't train a skill straight for 15 minutes, the other effects this has are destroying the market for a long time, driving up prices, giving more money to the rich (merchers) and making the life of the poor hell (everyone who isn't a mercher, or a staker/pker since those can always profit). Hmm, sounds like modern capitalism. Oh well. Perhaps a miracle will happen and RS will start prospering again, but I don't believe it.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Quite the doomsaying articles this week :sad:

[cowmaster187]

the world is ending amg. but seriously i liked the articles.

 

~~~legoman187~~~

[Big_Stingman]

Interesting articles. I doubt they would ever institute "cheating" servers, but you never know I guess. Personally I have liked the past RuneScape updates. Jagex seems to be listening to players a lot more imo, but we will see...

 

Also, in the DYK, it should be "etc.," not "ect." Et cetera, not ec tetera.

[All_Is_Great]

There is no solution. Just let them trade, bot, etc. Report it as you go, whether or not it makes a difference, i don't really care. Have some fun at their expense, bot-killing topic comes to mind.

 

They didn't disappear when Jagex removed freetrade/wildy, people will always find a way around the system.

[Riemis]

Think Jagex going for the money with RuneScape is bad?

They squeeze out much more money/person with War of Legends, I know people that spent over a thousand dollars on that game, let's hope RuneScape doesn't evolve into that.

[green9090]

Getting rid of bots would be easy if Jagex would shell out the staff for it. Jmod goes ingame, changes something small (moving a ladder, removing the ability to click on a resource, etc) at a common botting spot to make bots malfunction, and bans them all. Anyone banned in this way would be permanently gone from the game with no chance of coming back, IP banned, and credit card banned. Do that a couple times a day on a random server at a random spot, and botting will decline heavily as players realize that, oh hey, I'm not willing to risk never being able to play again to raise my stats a little.

 

But that would require Jagex ACTUALLY caring about botting rather than pretending to because it's what the players want to hear. They haven't gone even the slightest step toward what they could do to combat botting, so don't believe their lipservice.

[Markup]

There will be no solution for bots.... ever. Jagex will not switch from Java script..... ever. The only way to fully stop botting would be to make the game a down-loadable game similar to WOW, guild wars or lineage. If you have ever used a bot. You know that it sets up in a separate window, almost like a proxy and plays Runescape off of that, it does not play off of Mozilla or Google chrome or internet explorer. (I once used one out of curiosity and never did again, my net xp gain from botting is around 175k wc xp and no money). If RS stopped being a browser game then bots would be incapable of existing in the way that they do now. Botting would be possible again in time but it would give Jagex the time needed to get the edge on the programmers, not to mention that the more complicated script of a down-loadable game such as WoW is harder to bot, which is one of the reasons that there are many less bots on WoW then RS. Though this will most likely never happen this would be the only way to end the majority botting.

 

lolwut

[Pinata]

Getting rid of bots would be easy if Jagex would shell out the staff for it. Jmod goes ingame, changes something small (moving a ladder, removing the ability to click on a resource, etc) at a common botting spot to make bots malfunction, and bans them all. Anyone banned in this way would be permanently gone from the game with no chance of coming back, IP banned, and credit card banned. Do that a couple times a day on a random server at a random spot, and botting will decline heavily as players realize that, oh hey, I'm not willing to risk never being able to play again to raise my stats a little.

 

But that would require Jagex ACTUALLY caring about botting rather than pretending to because it's what the players want to hear. They haven't gone even the slightest step toward what they could do to combat botting, so don't believe their lipservice.

I wouldn't like that, because some people seem like they're botting when they're not. Yesterday I was bored and killing cows, and was accused for botting at cows. Then I asked why I would be botting here when I'm using an air staff, not picking up hides, then they just said every1 bots, reported. Not to mention many people semi afk with a bot on. Example would be when I lure at the ranging guild, and someone is getting attacked, then they randomlly kill the guard on like 1/3 hp left, and are like I wasn't botting I misclicked and went to the bathroom, so I don't know how Jagex would know if some people are botting or not, like when ppl have auto clicker on for alching but still talking to people. Also, my irl friend got 99 magic alching in pest control boats, and I told him he was going to get banned, but he got nothing so after that I lost all faith in Jagex's detection system, which I'm beginning to think is just other players for the initial detection.

 

Edit: There was also another time when someones bot broke, and they were just standing at edgeville smithing area saying random #'s above 27, and like at least over 20 people reported that person, and she was doing it for 6 hours straight, maybe more I logged off, and she never got a ban...

[green9090]

Getting rid of bots would be easy if Jagex would shell out the staff for it. Jmod goes ingame, changes something small (moving a ladder, removing the ability to click on a resource, etc) at a common botting spot to make bots malfunction, and bans them all. Anyone banned in this way would be permanently gone from the game with no chance of coming back, IP banned, and credit card banned. Do that a couple times a day on a random server at a random spot, and botting will decline heavily as players realize that, oh hey, I'm not willing to risk never being able to play again to raise my stats a little.

 

But that would require Jagex ACTUALLY caring about botting rather than pretending to because it's what the players want to hear. They haven't gone even the slightest step toward what they could do to combat botting, so don't believe their lipservice.

I wouldn't like that, because some people seem like they're botting when they're not. Yesterday I was bored and killing cows, and was accused for botting at cows. Then I asked why I would be botting here when I'm using an air staff, not picking up hides, then they just said every1 bots, reported. Not to mention many people semi afk with a bot on. Example would be when I lure at the ranging guild, and someone is getting attacked, then they randomlly kill the guard on like 1/3 hp left, and are like I wasn't botting I misclicked and went to the bathroom, so I don't know how Jagex would know if some people are botting or not, like when ppl have auto clicker on for alching but still talking to people. Also, my irl friend got 99 magic alching in pest control boats, and I told him he was going to get banned, but he got nothing so after that I lost all faith in Jagex's detection system, which I'm beginning to think is just other players for the initial detection.

 

Edit: There was also another time when someones bot broke, and they were just standing at edgeville smithing area saying random #'s above 27, and like at least over 20 people reported that person, and she was doing it for 6 hours straight, maybe more I logged off, and she never got a ban...

There's a difference between doing something weird and doing something like a bot, and obviously the Jmod in charge of the bans would have to be smart enough to know that.

 

Say that the gate to the cows suddenly was removed and a stile was added on the opposite wall. A legitimate player would either notice and go over there, or sit there going "wtf just happened?" A bot would break and not be able to get back in to the cow pen, either spam clicking where the gate was or shutting down completely and letting the 5 minute timer log them out. The bot behavior is easily recognized and obviously different from anything a real player would do. Breaking bots isn't hard to do when you can manipulate the game at will.

[Sir_Squab]

Thing is, if botters/RWTers were put on the private server because of bots or RWT....

 

That server would be boring, because you'd pay for a maxed level account to only fight people with a maxed level account. Some would find it fun, but....it's not a very tangible though, but I don't think it would be very enjoyable. You'd get to mess around with the best stats and the best gear, against other people with the best stats and the best gear. Well, yes, that would be fun for a while, but after a few months it gets boring and people wander off (depending on how much people pay for cash on these servers.)

 

Plus, bots and RWT would STILL offer something Jagex wouldn't - the ability to get these skills and items on normal servers, where you get a severe advantage vs other players.

 

Wow.... I've seen a lot of doomsaying articles lately, and a bunch saying Jagex was only in it for the money.....

 

This is the first one that's convinced me. Most of them are a rant about change....

 

This article is actually quite depressing. I want to believe your wrong about the Gowers and Constant Teddy quitting, and that the form was just faked....

 

Gosh....I just hope they finish off the quests soon. I suddenly feel that my time on RS has just become very, very limited. This article is one of the most depressing things I've read in a long time.

 

Giving players the option to RWT? That's BS. I don't care if they get on a separate server, I would still feel cheated if certain players would be able to prance around with 200M without having worked for it, and would be able to do so legally.

 

Now, about the other article, I have to agree with the points raised. I hadn't even known about that Raine and Spectrum investment bit, so I was really disappointed myself when I read that. Not since the removal of free trade could I say that RS has truly started dying, and I'm afraid this change won't be undone in 3 years. But if I consider the latest developments, I must say that one could have foreseen that. Updates are getting worse, and this is not just the whiny ranter speaking out of me. In fact, I have appreciated almost every update in the history of RS in one way or another - the second one that broke this rule (again, after 2007) were the Wildywyrms - a poor effort, badly thought out, no reward, only flashy graphics to it. Now they throw another Bonus XP weekend at us to keep the mob happy. Other than gratifying casual 11 year olds who couldn't train a skill straight for 15 minutes, the other effects this has are destroying the market for a long time, driving up prices, giving more money to the rich (merchers) and making the life of the poor hell (everyone who isn't a mercher, or a staker/pker since those can always profit). Hmm, sounds like modern capitalism. Oh well. Perhaps a miracle will happen and RS will start prospering again, but I don't believe it.

 

Now that I think about it, the wilde wyrs are, in fact, probably the worst update I can think of. All they are is an attempt to cash in more on the popularity of the wilde.

[Mrhouse]

Getting rid of bots would be easy if Jagex would shell out the staff for it. Jmod goes ingame, changes something small (moving a ladder, removing the ability to click on a resource, etc) at a common botting spot to make bots malfunction, and bans them all. Anyone banned in this way would be permanently gone from the game with no chance of coming back, IP banned, and credit card banned. Do that a couple times a day on a random server at a random spot, and botting will decline heavily as players realize that, oh hey, I'm not willing to risk never being able to play again to raise my stats a little.

 

But that would require Jagex ACTUALLY caring about botting rather than pretending to because it's what the players want to hear. They haven't gone even the slightest step toward what they could do to combat botting, so don't believe their lipservice.

 

None of the above would change anything. And any credibility you had on the subject disappeared as soon as you suggested IP bans. Anyone with any knowledge on the subject knows that don't work.

 

Did you actually put any thought in that plan? I'm betting you didn't.

 

Heres what happens:

 

Jagex hires a buttload of new staffers which cost money. So Jagex either takes money from development of the game or increases subscription costs. Both negatively impacr the players and a game as a whole. Botters and rwter's dont hurt me or most players but these changes certainly would.

 

People still bot; they bot on weekends or at night and don't get caught. And moving things are only effective now because they happen so rarely. Did you miss the thousand times Jagex has said bots stay one step ahead? Same situation. Mods move objects around - bot makers get more active in updating their scripts or make multiple scripts/options to solve the issue.

 

And then you realize moving things around wouldn't work for most bots anyways. Fighters/hunters/fishers/alchers and anything like them would be totally unaffected.

 

It's easy to say Jagex doesn't care until you realize just how much time/effort goes into fighting them that turns out to be futile anyways.

[Pinata]

Getting rid of bots would be easy if Jagex would shell out the staff for it. Jmod goes ingame, changes something small (moving a ladder, removing the ability to click on a resource, etc) at a common botting spot to make bots malfunction, and bans them all. Anyone banned in this way would be permanently gone from the game with no chance of coming back, IP banned, and credit card banned. Do that a couple times a day on a random server at a random spot, and botting will decline heavily as players realize that, oh hey, I'm not willing to risk never being able to play again to raise my stats a little.

 

But that would require Jagex ACTUALLY caring about botting rather than pretending to because it's what the players want to hear. They haven't gone even the slightest step toward what they could do to combat botting, so don't believe their lipservice.

 

None of the above would change anything. And any credibility you had on the subject disappeared as soon as you suggested IP bans. Anyone with any knowledge on the subject knows that don't work.

 

Did you actually put any thought in that plan? I'm betting you didn't.

 

Heres what happens:

 

Jagex hires a buttload of new staffers which cost money. So Jagex either takes money from development of the game or increases subscription costs. Both negatively impacr the players and a game as a whole. Botters and rwter's dont hurt me or most players but these changes certainly would.

 

People still bot; they bot on weekends or at night and don't get caught. And moving things are only effective now because they happen so rarely. Did you miss the thousand times Jagex has said bots stay one step ahead? Same situation. Mods move objects around - bot makers get more active in updating their scripts or make multiple scripts/options to solve the issue.

 

And then you realize moving things around wouldn't work for most bots anyways. Fighters/hunters/fishers/alchers and anything like them would be totally unaffected.

 

It's easy to say Jagex doesn't care until you realize just how much time/effort goes into fighting them that turns out to be futile anyways.

Well I'd says her idea was great on the idea that a severe punishment will greatly reduce bots, my only problem is that some innocent players could get the severe punishment.

 

And to botters RWT, not hurting the game, it may not affect my progress towards RS goals, but when I see someone botting it pisses me off, because they get to be cheap and lazy while I actually have to spend the time gaining my levels which is the whole point of the game, and it pisses me off even more when a botter shows off their stats. Basically, botting destroys the achievement part of the game, which RS is built upon. The fact that RS has tons of ways to be better than that other person is what drives the game. For example you could have all 99s, but I could have a 15B bank, or you could have 70wc, but I could have 70 fish. Stuff like that.

[green9090]

Getting rid of bots would be easy if Jagex would shell out the staff for it. Jmod goes ingame, changes something small (moving a ladder, removing the ability to click on a resource, etc) at a common botting spot to make bots malfunction, and bans them all. Anyone banned in this way would be permanently gone from the game with no chance of coming back, IP banned, and credit card banned. Do that a couple times a day on a random server at a random spot, and botting will decline heavily as players realize that, oh hey, I'm not willing to risk never being able to play again to raise my stats a little.

 

But that would require Jagex ACTUALLY caring about botting rather than pretending to because it's what the players want to hear. They haven't gone even the slightest step toward what they could do to combat botting, so don't believe their lipservice.

 

None of the above would change anything. And any credibility you had on the subject disappeared as soon as you suggested IP bans. Anyone with any knowledge on the subject knows that don't work.

 

Did you actually put any thought in that plan? I'm betting you didn't.

 

Heres what happens:

 

Jagex hires a buttload of new staffers which cost money. So Jagex either takes money from development of the game or increases subscription costs. Both negatively impacr the players and a game as a whole. Botters and rwter's dont hurt me or most players but these changes certainly would.

 

People still bot; they bot on weekends or at night and don't get caught. And moving things are only effective now because they happen so rarely. Did you miss the thousand times Jagex has said bots stay one step ahead? Same situation. Mods move objects around - bot makers get more active in updating their scripts or make multiple scripts/options to solve the issue.

 

And then you realize moving things around wouldn't work for most bots anyways. Fighters/hunters/fishers/alchers and anything like them would be totally unaffected.

 

It's easy to say Jagex doesn't care until you realize just how much time/effort goes into fighting them that turns out to be futile anyways.

Wait, a buttload of staff? Because my plan involves one guy at a time. One extra staff in charge of actively identifying and punishing bots, instead of programmers fighting the futile programming war of making bots to catch bots.

 

I also think you've misunderstood my idea somewhat. The game changes wouldn't be predictable. It would be a case of something in the game suddenly, temporarily, and randomly changing and requiring different input to do the desired action. Bots are TERRIBLE at adaptability, and humans are great about it. Put a door in front of a human that wasn't there before, and they open it. Do the same to a bot and it flips out. You cannot program a bot to be able to identify and adapt to obstacles the same way a human can, you can only prepare it for situations that already exist. Once a bot is broken, its cover is blown, and it's pretty clear that it is in fact a bot to any humans watching.

 

Fighters/fishers/hunters are absolutely susceptible to this. Alchers, sure, maybe not because they could be hiding anywhere, but alchers are one of the less invasive types of bots. The big problem with botting is resource hogging, and resource hogging means there's a specific place one can look to find the bots. If you can see the bots and can change the game around them, you CAN break them.

[Mrhouse]

And to botters RWT, not hurting the game, it may not affect my progress towards RS goals, but when I see someone botting it pisses me off, because they get to be cheap and lazy while I actually have to spend the time gaining my levels which is the whole point of the game, and it pisses me off even more when a botter shows off their stats. Basically, botting destroys the achievement part of the game, which RS is built upon. The fact that RS has tons of ways to be better than that other person is what drives the game. For example you could have all 99s, but I could have a 15B bank, or you could have 70wc, but I could have 70 fish. Stuff like that.

 

 

Any achievement or level you gain will someday be done faster and easier with less effort. I got 99 range using a magic shortbow; can we ban everyone who got 99 range using a crossbow/pc/soulwars? Because I feel really under valued now.

 

To Green:

 

One guy cannot cover all worlds at all spots all day. It would take alot of people.

 

I also think you've misunderstood my idea somewhat. The game changes wouldn't be predictable. It would be a case of something in the game suddenly, temporarily, and randomly changing and requiring different input to do the desired action. Bots are TERRIBLE at adaptability, and humans are great about it. Put a door in front of a human that wasn't there before, and they open it. Do the same to a bot and it flips out. You cannot program a bot to be able to identify and adapt to obstacles the same way a human can, you can only prepare it for situations that already exist. Once a bot is broken, its cover is blown, and it's pretty clear that it is in fact a bot to any humans watching.

 

You mean a RANDOM EVENT type deal? Interesting theory.

 

 

The big problem with botting is resource hogging

 

Only bots I know of that actually hog resources are hunter bots. AFAIK they are the only type that shut everyone else out.

If you want to chop yews you can. Growing your own or taking to the less crowded/known spots are possible. If your cutting yews you aren't interested in money/xp anyways,.

 

Green dragons are also available to anyone who wants them. Or you could kill other dragons.

 

And then we could go into all the positive effects of bots...

[Sir_Squab]

And to botters RWT, not hurting the game, it may not affect my progress towards RS goals, but when I see someone botting it pisses me off, because they get to be cheap and lazy while I actually have to spend the time gaining my levels which is the whole point of the game, and it pisses me off even more when a botter shows off their stats. Basically, botting destroys the achievement part of the game, which RS is built upon. The fact that RS has tons of ways to be better than that other person is what drives the game. For example you could have all 99s, but I could have a 15B bank, or you could have 70wc, but I could have 70 fish. Stuff like that.

 

 

Any achievement or level you gain will someday be done faster and easier with less effort. I got 99 range using a magic shortbow; can we ban everyone who got 99 range using a crossbow/pc/soulwars? Because I feel really under valued now.

 

Editing in reply to green.

 

People who chin at SW/PC. lol

[BioIce]

Desperate to grab the attention dungeoneering couldn't, huh? Maybe if they removed the developmentally delayed experience cap in free-to-play there would be just a touch more interest in it.

 

I'd like to see random event series in the same way there are quest series.

 

Well done on using references for the second article.

[green9090]

To house: Why would you need a Jmod at every spot on all worlds at all times? One guy could hit several different worlds in an hour. Work him 8 hours a day for a week and he'll have hit multiple training spots on every world. The mere threat of your training spot being the one hit while you leave your bot on overnight would be an enormous tool of dissuasion. Perm ban AND you can't make a new members account without getting a new credit card? That's not something too many people would be willing to risk. It may not completely eliminate botting, but it would sure take a huge chunk out.

 

The problem with random events is that they are not nearly random enough. While they're called "random," they all have predictable patterns. They are essentially bots trying to trick bots, which will not and can never work. You can teach a bot a random because it's always the same puzzle. It's not "holy crap the traps in my inventory were moved around and given a different name and graphic," it's not "whoa where did that door go," it's "oh, the sandwich lady again. Time to check which thing she's asking for and identify the correct graphic." The human aspect is important because you can't teach a bot to learn an infinite number of potential changes, but a human is capable of inventing endless ways to break bots.

 

To your last point: ah, you're a bot sympathizer. That kind of explains a lot.