n64jive

I've played runescape using remote access technology, and let me tell you, it sucks. Responsiveness decreases quite a bit, and Jagex already has a problem with responsivness(ever notice there is a slight delay between click and animation...this isn't caused only by client-server communication lag, but also because of the nature of how jagex programs their game (using the "tick" system)... I think a lot of people would quit if they implemented this, as I don't think the game would be very enjoyable. Honestly, I don't think bots are that huge of problem...What skills are overly botted in p2p in a way that effects they players? Pure ess mining is terrible, but most people just [bleep] with it because it's obvious that these are bots performing these tasks. Hunter is getting bad, and it being a competative skill, it does piss off legitimate players. Yew/Magic cuting is bad. What else? Either way, my solution is Jagex should focus on these skills. Banning bots that compete with legitimate players would 1. End these annoying threads. 2. Make more people happy. It would also send an underlying message to botters: Go ahead and bot, but don't bot something that pisses off our paying customers, because we will find you, and we will ban you. My cents

If you kindly reread my post, you'll notice the cost I mentioned is the time it took to develop the algorithm, not the time it takes for the algorithm to execute. The time it took IBM and the NSA to develop current standards is on the order of decades. Many of the encryption algorithms in use today were not developed by IBM or the NSA, and they certainly did not take decades to develop. For example, the AES algorithm was developed by a huge number of two Belgians. You can read their paper about it here. @ Sees_all1 Did you know: Most of the research on data security, encryption/decryption methods, etc. is done in Academia? Those companies you speak of are businesses. They do very little other then adopt these methods into "standards". What does that mean? That tons of money doesn't have to be spent on this research because there is academic institutions all around the world that are willing to put their time/effort into engineering these methods. I'll use the same example, AES. It wasn't called AES by the two belgiums that developed it. Instead the NIST put out a claim that they would pay if someone came up with a better standard then DES. There was hundreds of submissions, and the two belgiums (it was called something like rejdael, taking after their last names) was the one selected. IBM did come up with a standard, and you might be right, they might have spent a lot of money on it. There method was very poor though and I believed received the least amount of votes. Also as far as taking decades, I believe it took at most 2 years. source:Just learned about this in class like two weeks ago...

if (hellBeast.isOnScreen()) logAndSwitchWorlds();

Didn't you claim earlier to be a senior computer engineering student? Either you didn't grasp what was meant by changing IDs, or you don't know what you're talking about. Let me give an example in technical terms. The Runescape Java client comes with a list of IDs in constants, enumerations, etc. When the player's browser requests to download the client in order to run it, some sort of session hash could be generated as a one-time key to translate the real ID numbers into client/fake ID numbers. A copy of the Runescape client is dynamically modified on Jagex's end to replace all real ID references with these hashed, session-specific ID numbers, and then the client is sent to the user. During play, any client-server requests that use an ID number would include whatever hash/key was originally used, and the server would decode the fake ID numbers into the real ones it actually uses. All of this is feasible. The problem, of course, is that bot writers could find whatever memory structure is used to store these fake IDs on the client side, and similarly have their bot dynamically read them and alter its instructions to use the session-based IDs. Even if the dynamic ID changes included reordering the object lists, it would probably be easy to identify whichever objects the bot authors were seeking using other variables such as utilized graphical resources. I currently can't think of any way to obfuscate the local ID storage in such a way that it would foil bot authors. Also, please tone down the condescending uber-rage. As far as I know, Jagex uses a cache system. The objects are requested from the Jagex server, and then the reference is stored on the users HDD. The objects are referenced in the cache first, and if not found, they are requested from Jagex's servers. What you suggest only changes the ID's per session. Also this would require more calculation on Jagex's part, which is more overhead, something Jagex surely doesn't want. You already stated the solution for bots in your problem, which would be to simply decode the IDs, so how would this solve the bot problem? I am a senior in computer engineering, and I did grasp what he was trying to say. He never mentioned using any sort of hashing algorithm or encoding/decoding in his changing IDs. All he mentioned was to change the ID's, which I assumed he meant as changing the ID's periodically throughout the a period of time, thus having to perform a new lookup every time the ID's changed. Jagex surely has a team working on this. But like this thread, every idea that they come up with is likely shot down. I see no way in Jagex winning this battle, and that is my final stance on the matter. They can either remove bots and lose money, or just accept that bots exist and enjoy the fact that at the end of the year, they are still profiting, which is what seems has happened. PS. Sorry for the rage, I'm just sick of people coming up with the same idea over and over again that wouldn't work.

ID numbers that change? That COMPLETELY takes away from the purpose of an ID number. ID's are meant to speed up the way data is accessed. If you make it so they change, the lookups have to spend more time trying to find the information. Runescape objects essentially linked together by their IDs. Think of objects as looking like this [id|rest of data corresponding to ID] Isn't is easier to go through and say DragonID = 500. and look through a list until you reach 500? The alternative would be Dragon must have this model, with this color, performing these attributes, doing this, doing that, if this, if,if, if,...etc. Please get off the idea of changing ID's. It is not the solution, but rather would cause a bigger problem! I repeat CHANGING IDS OR ANYTHING WITH IDS IS NOT THE SOLUTION. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE GAME USES IDS! DYNAMIC IDS == HORRIBLE IDEA.

Wow, I don't know why I come to this forum anymore. It really is full of idiots... February=28 days/29 on leap year April, June, September, November = 30 days January, March, May, July, August, October, December = 31 days. You say a month should be flat 30 days fixed. You realized that Jagex gives you a better deal in all other months except February. You realized that 12*30 = 360. Jagex gives you 365 days of membership per year. Yep, they sure are scamming us, providing us with 5 extra days of membership then your scheme. As for the others who say that 1 month should be 31 days, that would be 372 days. 7 days extra. At the current US credit card price, which I believe is $5.95 per month, the cost per day is (12*5.95)/365 ~ $0.20 per day. You're really bickering over $1.40 PER YEAR. I lose more change than that in my couch per year.... Seriously what have you all done with Tip.It? From the rtards on the bots post who think they could fix the problem themselves with ideas that just make no sense to the rtards who think Jagex is jewing us when simple math implies they are actually giving you a better deal.... I'm fed up with this...

Plus it would add more overhead on jagex's part. Most of the updates that occur that kill the bots are just simple as changes to revision number and the like. Thats why you see most bots back it within an hour of an update.

Everything defined has loopholes. Take prostitution. Soliciting sex is against the law. However, if we take Prostitute A and rename her Escort A and take soliciting sex and rename it paying for companionship + consenting act between two adults, you have now just looped around prostitution, and they get away with it everywhere. Lets apply this to virtual currency. We instead of charging cash per mill, we instead charge at an hourly rate to obtain said cash. So we are no longer selling the cash, but instead selling the time to obtain it. And a simple mathematical formula is all that seperates the two. And selling the gold simply becomes two rs players consenting in a trade. As for legal battles against individual players. How did that play-out for the music industry? Sure you hear about 1 out of every million that actually gets tried for pirating music, however it didn't take the industry long to figure out that 1. they would never get the royalties to cover the legal process. 2. its not easy to find people illegally sharing music. 3. There are loopholes in the process for catching said person.

Those algorithms took hundreds of millions (even billions) of dollars and many many years to develop. I don't think Jagex's pockets are that deep nor do they have that amount of talent to develop something that works that well. I'd really like to know what other [cabbage] you can pull out of your ass? As a senior level student in computer engineering undergrad, and after taking many courses on security and algorithm enhancement, everything you seem to say is completely false. First off, most data standards are developed to be relatively cheap. That is the goal of data security, to have very little overhead. Next, 2-7 years? Most encryption/decryption methods try to ensure the security against a brute force attack for something like 10^18 years, aka longer than the universe has existed. (look up AES on google). All that, however, is based on data transmission security, which is quite different than what Jagex wants to do. Jagex just simply needs to detect when an action is repeated repetitively enough to be considered botting. Seems simple, except that runescape is a game revolved around repetitive action, therefor the difference between and a player and a bot is very hard to determine, especially with well programmed bots. Also it is very easy to make bots seem humanlike. How will Jagex beat this? Simple answer is they won't. Runescape is a game. A game revolved around completing simple tasks. Bots will always be able to complete these simple tasks, and programmers will always be able to make it happen at human like rates. Hell, they are working on bots right now that can be controlled by email/sms. You know what that means? Joe Schmoe could have an office job. Before he leaves for work every morning, he could run some process to start all his bots up for runescape. While he is at work, he can receive alerts on the status of his bots. He can reply to these alerts with control statements to control his bots. At the end of the week, he groups all said cash together and sells for some easy side cash. Likely tax free You want to know how to get rid of bots? Get rid of the ability to sell GP. How do they do that? Well they could get rid of free-trade, but that cause many players to quit, which was a huge loss on Jagex's part. I don't really understand who has the money to spend on all this RSGP. From my research, that average price a gold selling website charge for 100m is between $50-$100. These sites have billions of gp. Is there really that many people out there willing to spend hundreds of dollars on something that could easily be taken away from them? I guess looking at it from another light, if 25% of rs active players (lets say that is roughly 100k players) all spend $10 on gold, that would be anywhere from 10m to 20m gold person, or 1000 billion to 2000 billion gold, which sounds about right. wow, covered a lot. Sorry this entire thread just seems to be filled with [cabbage] and ideas that won't work...i'm sure I'll edit this and post more... EDIT: (told ya)... Dungeoneering is an attempt at creating something in runescape that is not repetitive, but in the end, it still is. Sure, each dungeon is random, however, like a maze, even something that is randomly generated can be solved. I think it is just merely taking some time for the dungeoneering bots to do the research needed to catch up. Give it 2-3 months, and they will have found out everything there is to know about it. Hell, I was playing with 4 ppl the other day, and 1 of them seemed to do his own thing, and respond very little to any team interaction. One could argue that the person simply likes to do things his way, but his actions were very bot like. Out of 4-5 large dungeons, this "player" would be able to solve many puzzles that require a little bit of though effortlessly, whenever a key was found, they would instantly find that door(without having to check them, like most people do), open it, and continue solving/exploring possible rooms that have yet to be explored. This player didn't give two shifts about monsters in the room, which actually worked out fine because the rest of us did. He just behaved strangely, and honestly it worked to our advantage. That is what could be scary about a dungeoneering bot. You throw a bot into a group of 3-4 legit players and the bot is able to take care of all the door open, it benefits both. Traditionally bots have always competed against legitimate players, but a bot that helps them out? That could change many peoples perspective on bots in general. EDIT 2: I love how people were attacking one of the posters for suspiciously knowing a lot about bots. For one, he was informative and his information seemed to be correct. 2. Who the hell cares if he bots? Can a player that bots have no opinion on this forum? I for one think this said player was one of the most helpful posters in this entire thread? If he breaks Jagex's rules, I could care less about it here. EDIT 3: I think it is important that people understand that everything has an ID mainly is to improve performance of the game. Could you imagine having to do multiple lookups on an object each time it was rendered to determine what object it is? Next, there is a reason these objects are unique. If they weren't, again, multiple lookups would have to be performed. Next, there in most game development, you create different id's based on the TYPE of object. For instance, everything that could be picked up would be of one type. Everything that involves scenery of the game involves another type. NPC's are generally their own type. All these types can share ID's. But N64jive, doesn't this go against you're multiple lookups and non-unique ids? Yes, but it also significantly improves filtering abilty. There is probably 10-20 max different game-object types. I would assume thousands to 100's of thousands for each of those objects. Instead of having to traverse 2million id's, we can now perform a filter on type (one lookup) and then traverse (another lookup). Also programming is largely based around type. I can make 1 object not compatible with another object by simply declaring different types. It is late, and I can really feel myself getting dumber as I type, so I'm going to end this here. But you get the point. TLDR:I would detect bots the same way Jagex is trying to, and I wouldn't be able to detect the majority of them.

Jagex has lost the battle to bots, and they will continue to. R&D for their detection-software (which don't kid yourself, is nothing but logging events that happen) takes away from R&D for their game development. Plus they have to spend funds on hiring personnel to review all these reports/bans/etc. I'm sorry, but there is no way Jagex will ever win in this situation. Either way, they're going to lose money on the deal, which being a business, kind of goes against their main goal. Sue the botters? The botters themselves aren't violating any laws. The devs of the botting sites may violate a few laws, and Jagex would be able to go against any royalties made off of them, however I still feel like that number would small in comparison. What about the number of p2p players who would quit when their bots no longer work? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, most people don't care to waste their lives all day on something that isn't fun. the 90% grind that is runescape isn't appealing. The 10% you can do after that grind that is fun, is. People bot for a reason. Some to make money, others to enjoy the game. I would assume Jagex would lose more in membership fees then they would gain in suing for royalities against RWT fees(especially after court cost...Lawyers are expensive...I paid over $500 just to talk to one for a couple hours).... I for one am sick of these threads. A new one is made every day. same [cabbage] different toilet....

They are going to ban all the accounts of people who payed to get there bots unbanned. April fools biatch!

The game mechanics work like this: 90% of the time you spend grinding to achieve levels to enjoy the fun activities. the other 10%, you actually enjoy what you are doing... Why do you think botters exist? To get to that 10% without having to actually endure the 90%.... Who is the real evil here? I wish I knew my history better, but I guarantee this scenario has played out in history before. You know, where everyone supports the "good guys", when really the "bad" guys just see things through a better light. Had the British won the United States Revolutionary War....Had the South won the United States Civil War?... Just saying...makes you think. PS. Please don't take the comparison too literally. I am not trying directly compare the evils of slavery to botting.

Does welcome to runescape members count?

why not just add a new color to every familiar? You're own familiar always shows up as one model, and all other familiars show up as another model. Do the same thing for coloring the menu when left clicking...

QA team fail.

Playing video games isn't feminine...simply as that. Same thing happens when you see a girl driving a Harley, or chewing tobacco, or drinking heavy beer. Would you be shocked to see a guy as a fashion major? (assuming he's straight)... You should understand that you are a huge minority (>10%) as a girl playing runescape.

"All it takes is one rich player to buy out an item and control the market". What keeps them from doing this now? The only difference is that they would have to do it the old fashioned way, aka world 2/ forums... I think it's a joke that jagex only allows the items to rise/drop 5%. That is pretty much socialism at it's best. It's funny when you see an item take a week to rise to it's eventual value. Remove the 5% limit, and it goes there within a day. Also, people should know that if someone or a group of people tries to create an artificial demand, one of two things happens. 1. The supply would eventually meet the demand, ie, people would gather those resources. 2. People buying these items will just accept the price increase and pay it. I also dislike the buying limits. If I have the money to buy 10k diamonds, I shouldn't have to wait 80 hours to do it. I could spend my timing obtaining them the old fashioned way, but isn't the whole point of the GE to remove these annoyances from the game?

Judging by your grammar and horrible ideas, I would like to think that you're pulling [cabbage] out of your ass. Why would someone make a bot for COD. It's not a game where you have to spend months/years to get your character to the "fun" levels.... Take combat for instance. The game is most fun at 99 in combat skills (pking/staking aside). Combat average xp is roughly 50k-80k/hr. Even with botting, that is still roughly 220 hours. Assuming the bot only bots for 10 hours a day, that is 22 days, just to get to 99 strength. That's almost a month, AUTOMATED. Add the other combat stats, that means that before I can pro boss hunt, I need to spend 3 months on the game, if I was botting. I'm sorry, but I have probably at most, 10 hours a week to spend on runescape. Imagine how long it would take me to get 99.... I'm not a fan of people making games that ruin lives. Runescape does this. You could spend most of your time doing something more productive. That's why I believe xbox has a bigger market. MMORPG's players kind of received the stereotypical label as "anti-social", "nerdy", "no-life", etc. I can play COD for 1-2 hours, be pleased, and then go off and do something else, whether it be homework/studying, working, spending time with real life friends. If it's a weekend, going out to the bars with my friends, working on projects that actually provide life experiences/knowledge in something I eventually want to do. Take the botting community for example. The kids who develop the scripts/bots are gaining knowledge in programming, something they will be able to apply later on in life if they so choose. And they also get to play the game as well. Yeah, it sucks if you spend the time to get the levels, and they were able to get to it by simply running a program, but can you blame them for not wanting to click the same thing over and over again in order to get a level. I'm going to end this rant here, as I know I will receive a lot of negative feedback from this topic, but after all the experiences I went through, I don't really understand why I ever spent so much of my life on this game. Completely off topic bit that may provide some insight: I'm 21 year old college student studying computer science/engineering. I play quite a bit of runescape from the time I was in jr high/high school. I gave up the game a lot around my senior year and completely when I went off to college. After some recent events in my life, I started playing the game a little in order to help get my mind off some things. Honestly, it help tremendously. I've never botted, but I often wonder why I don't use my skills that I have learned in Java/C programming to automate the processes that I dislike about this game. I have thought about it a lot recently, and maybe eventually I will, but at this point I'd rather just play the game when I have the time. TLDR: move along....

Best idea for ring of stone: be able to remove onyx gem from ring.

I hosted for about 3 days or so using 60x2 99x3, which gives me roughly a 15% edge Honestly, the best trick to getting people to trust you is to get a partner. Have him dice against you for large amounts and pay him off as he wins. Have him keep track of his losses to you, and promise to pay him back all loss+ % of commission on you're earnings (I like 20%, as I only need him to gain trust of people, after that, He doesn't really play much of a roll, however he still earns 20%.) Again, you could consider this scamming, however all my payouts are legitimate, rather the act is just to ease people's suspicions of me scamming. Using the above method, I was able to turn 14m into over 150m. I have since quit dicing, as standing around all day really feels more like work than play.

I hosted for 2 days. Took my cashpile from 10m to 150m. Ended up giving 50m to some kid who was "helping" me, even though he really didn't do much. I didn't really need the extra 50m.

People who say "Oh, as long as you keep doubling, you'll eventually win". Here is a quick spreadsheet analysis 0 430059 41.01% 1 1 254355 24.26% 2 2 149596 14.27% 4 3 88025 8.39% 8 4 51998 4.96% 16 5 30496 2.91% 32 6 17967 1.71% 64 7 10643 1.01% 128 8 6229 0.59% 256 9 3763 0.36% 512 10 2233 0.21% 1024 11 1289 0.12% 2048 12 771 0.07% 4096 13 474 0.05% 8192 14 285 0.03% 16384 15 162 0.02% 32768 16 103 0.01% 65536 17 60 0.01% 131072 18 33 0.00% 262144 19 17 0.00% 524288 20 4 0.00% 1048576 21 4 0.00% 2097152 22 3 0.00% 4194304 23 3 0.00% 8388608 24 3 0.00% 16777216 25 1 0.00% 33554432 1048576 Simply what I did here was use a random number generator to generate ~1.05 million numbers. In this simulation, it kept track of consecutive losses (the amount being the 2nd column, the percentage being the 3rd column). Dice game doing 60+ gives the player 41% chance of winning. The statistics hold true to the numbers. What you don't realize is that about 2.5% of the time, you will have to risk over 100m. 0.31% of the time, you'll exceed the max cash limit allowed. Now many will argue "N64Jive, those percentages are so small, that it is very unlikely to happen". 2.5% if actually rather large. I'll agree that .30% is small. However it is probably similar to drop rates of many items that exist in this game. Conclusion, you can't be statistics. In a negative expectation game, you can and/or will lose. EDIT: This is a reply to a post on the second or third page that tried to argue that because of the "hosts" high probability of losing, doubling you're money was a guaranteed win. Obviously the guy is an idiot, as in a negative expectation game, there is no such thing as a guaranteed win.

1. Get rid of the keylogger. 2. Quit trying to cheat. 3.?? 4.Profit

210k down to 140k. Is that both f2p and p2p? if that is just p2p alone, then everyone needs to be worried. That's 70k bot subscriptions. If Jagex bans those 70k subscriptions, thats $420,000 less a month Jagex has, ie 5 million a year less, which according to 2008's numbers, is about 1/6 of Jagex's income. This would instill the proof that Jagex needs botters. However I assume that those are both f2p and p2p, so take those numbers with a grain of salt.

What do you expect? Someone is going to play the game for 2 years and then write a review about how horrible it is? And so one guy wrote a bad review about the game. Who cares, you like it, right?