Will future bots be almost impossible to detect?

[DanCool999]

I think they need more complicated randoms, thier latest one which is the school requires them to randomly pick items and then exit to a random door. This is what messes up bots. They need a random where you have to answer a question is words which is 1 of 1000 random questions and after 2 errors you are randomly teled to a place like the port sarium jail.

[Under_Score]

I've seen Woodcutting Bots that say random words every 60 seconds so people don't think that they're bots.

[salim123]

well i would think the next generation is a program based on a ghost mouse and colors..

 

ghost mouses are easy to program and with some programming you could make it have some variables in time to make it undetectible

[rt_phondents]

Im sure bots will never be to far ahead of jagex, if they do maybe jagex will have to turn to the players, giving us more power over a definte bot...maybe a system were so many players report the bot it kicks the player

[Adam007]

Im sure bots will never be to far ahead of jagex, if they do maybe jagex will have to turn to the players, giving us more power over a definte bot...maybe a system were so many players report the bot it kicks the player

 

I'd like to know how you know what a definite bot is. If anything, jagex needs to take away some power from players, because it shouldn't even be the responsibility of the player. They created this environment where some people think they need to take it upon themselves to police areas where they think bots are, and it gets to their head.

[aznmidget448]

And that's why Jagex is attacking RWT rather than bots. By getting rid of RWT, bots are less useful.

[Fey_Warrior]

Wanna hear something scary? (sorry if already posted)

 

 

 

The third generation bots had gone so far and so deep in Runescape that they could do things you normally could NOT do in the game! An example is the well known phat dupe, where a scriptable-auto program was used to create alot of copies of these items.

 

If you do see, hear or find anything of the sort you can help defeat them by ensuring you report any exploitable bugs via the "Report a bug/fault" link on the front RuneScape page.

 

 

 

Bobbington2 has raised an important point in posting:

 

Sadly bots are not the issue...... it's what the bots are doing.

 

Players shouldn't forget the a major motivating factor behind Jagex's action has been our expressions of concern as players about the effects of rule-breakers, like bots, and the bad things that flow from them. This is why I worry when players express views that Jagex should stop worrying about cheats ruining our game; were Jagex ever to give into cheats it would be be disasterous.

 

 

 

I for one, and many others I know, do not want cheats of all forms in our game. Bots in particular do fund more menace they they first appear and so aren't innocents but possibly vanguards of worse and more malicious activities that threaten our game.

 

 

 

Reports are mounting that bots may to be feeders for areas of major concern for law enforcement agencies.

 

 

 

Whether or not this new concern being expressed by these agencies and departments, is reflected in why Jagex has listed these agencies on the bottom of the "Protecting our Players" page is hard to say, but it's good to know Jagex is already working with them if issues arise:

 

We will also continue to support both regional and national police forces from around the world, as well as provide information, on request, to agencies such as the United States Secret Service and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

 

Contrary to some the myths being propagated by some angry recent efforts to stop rule-breakers, those who do cheat in our game are no longer harmless in the real world. They may be involved in serious criminal activity. If either you or your parents see or hear such activity in-game please report it. If you hear or see anything in the game and fail to report it or see material that raises serious concerns on other websites you can report it here via the "Other comments" link.

 

 

 

This new report from Internet Security Company Symantec highlights just how great a risk we all face from rule-breakers in our game. They are no longer just amateur hackers, but like the rest of the black economy on the Internet likely to be involved with groups that launder money for criminal activity.

 

 

 

Sadly it seems teen and adult players who buy from Gold Farmers may also be interacting with potential Internet Predators who are involved in more sinister activities. This is another reason why we need to act further to remove these real-life threats to players in our game. This is why I am very concerned to warn all players and players whose teens and younger children may play the game:

 

 

 

Don't give your personal contact or families financial details to these Internet Criminals and Internet Predators.

 

What happened after the three founders -- including Disney child star Brock Pierce -- fled the FBI by heading for Spain? An investigative report by Radar Magazine catches up with Marc Collins-Rector, who is walking rakishly free in London...and his protege Brock Pierce, whose giant company IGE -- which buys and sells cash in "World Of Warcraft" and other games -- is winning rave write-ups in Fortune and other magazines. In our long investigation, we discovered strong evidence that Collins-Rector -- who is hiding his money from child abuse victims -- may have helped fund IGE.

 

You can read the investigative report by RadarOnline about this jet-setting Internet Predator, who likely help fund one of the biggest Gold Farming operations, as well as being the mentor for Executive VP of DEN (and also IGE's founder). According to RadarOnline's report the convicted child predator is likely to have concealed his wealth in as well as helping to establish IGE's operations.

 

 

 

Another article by ZDNet related to FBI investigations on this same case.

 

How Digital Entertainment Network soared on the passion of its young true believers and fell into the squalor of sexual abuse charges, bankruptcy, and an FBI investigation. A tale in Internet time.

 

Also note that player activists in other MMOs caution all that just because they gold-farmers don't have IGE's stamp on them doesn't mean they aren't shop-fronts with IGE behind them; these sites get taken down all the time as they're reported by players to their respective MMO. Don't be fooled; these groups are not above board nor to they operate like legitimate businesses.

 

 

 

So it's now possible that those who break the rules by buying gold from these Gold Farmers has funded those who abuse children. Sadly I'm not surprised to find these people who own these groups involved; since they show little respect for the contractual (or for that matter legal) boundaries of other companies, as well as plying their trading internationally in what is now a vast unregulated currency/item exchange which governments are only now investigating and raising concerns among those in government, which only darkens when physical abuse of real persons is closely associated with such groups.

 

 

 

It's in our interests, as much as the interests of Jagex, to remove these rule-breakers where ever we see them. Help us help the community fight to keep these malevolent elements from threatening our own and our family's safety and enjoyment of the game.

 

 

 

Sorry for going off-topic a bit here about the dangers posed by bots. Yet there are mounting reports about the bad things in real world that bots fund. It's these darker associations that have the potential to harm far more than just effects on the in-game economy:

 

[hide=Some off-topic links for those concerned about Player Safety]

 

A useful link from Symantec for parents concerned about the safety of their teens as well important links to information on RuneScape for parents and players.

 

 

 

Remember if anyone asks you for personal information in-game, and it makes you uncomfortable report it under "Rule 13 - Personal Details". Jagex will ensure that if there is an issue they will look into it, and if serious they will contact the relevant authorities.

 

 

 

RuneScape is a Role-Playing game. There is no need for anyone to be asking you about your real identity or contact details. Better safe than sorry.

 

[/hide]

 

Regardless of how 'bots' may evolve, we as players know how players should act. We are therefore the ultimate bot detectors, that can never be defeated. If a new potentially possibly 'undetectable' bot occurs, we know where the report button is, and our reports will ensure Jagex can investigate the account and stop them before they continue to harm either other players or our game.

 

 

 

Take care everyone and be aware so you can be safe.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Fey.

[SwreeTak]

The macros will become harder and harder to detect in pace with that the technology becomes more advanced. Jagex will need to get better and better detection systems to find the macros and ban them. But as long as Jagex keeps working hard, I think that the number of macros in RS2 will reduce.

[Solidus_77]

This is similar to crime in real life. The macroers (the criminal) will usually, at least for a short time, be ahead of the police (Jagex). This is the sad reality, as no computer program is perfect at detecting whatever it is designed to detect.

 

 

 

and no computer program is perfect at hiding what it is meant to hide.

[Slick_cat]

They already are undetectable because the bot-pimps employ humans (sweatshoppers) to handle randoms and quests.

 

 

 

Jagex's fault for letting it go so long (see my 'the Great RuneScape Bot-Hunt') for discussion on how bot and sweatshopper has merged, and also what Jagex could have done to stop the bots 1.5 years ago when I told them.

[Solidus_77]

They already are undetectable because the bot-pimps employ humans (sweatshoppers) to handle randoms and quests.

 

 

 

Jagex's fault for letting it go so long (see my 'the Great RuneScape Bot-Hunt') for discussion on how bot and sweatshopper has merged, and also what Jagex could have done to stop the bots 1.5 years ago when I told them.

 

 

 

Until you know exactly what their search protocols, tools and methods are, how about you stop preaching such assumptions?

[meili]

I also heard that the Chinese gold farmers are also shady characters who do rl crimes...

 

 

 

I didn't know IGE was partially funded by someone trying to hide his money from child abuse victims, really makes you think how bad RWT is.

[Fredz]

First Kaitnieks was introduced much earlier to the game, and he was overrunning Runescape with his early bot (that came out long before fatigue) that could do most things. Mining/Smithing/Banking scripts could run hours without being detected or stopped.

 

 

 

Also the "advanced detection" system you are talking about in "generation 3" was pretty basic stuff. Like the first was just an encrypted string sent to the client after 60 mouse clicks in a session waiting for a return of the string to the server. As Kaitnieks first auto had almost complete control of the client it did not allow this to be returned and thus we had our first mass ban on Runescape. The auto program was fixed in days though and it took a much longer time before JageX made a fix for it the second time.

 

It could also be worth mentioning that on RSC today there are several detection free bots still remaining from this time RSC was around that Jagex never fixed, and the main reason why JageX scrapped new sign ups for RSC.

 

 

 

I think you also should note a popular color scripting macro program that is very popular today (not by gold farmers but) by the cheating community because it does not interact with the server, but still works great when using a good script so the detection percentage is very, very slim to non existent.

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Fey_Warrior please spare us for the political propaganda that everyone lives in fear and that if you steal a candy bar the next thing that happens is that you blow up a building or two. Reality check one two one two.

[Slick_cat]

They already are undetectable because the bot-pimps employ humans (sweatshoppers) to handle randoms and quests.

 

 

 

Jagex's fault for letting it go so long (see my 'the Great RuneScape Bot-Hunt') for discussion on how bot and sweatshopper has merged, and also what Jagex could have done to stop the bots 1.5 years ago when I told them.

 

 

 

Until you know exactly what their search protocols, tools and methods are, how about you stop preaching such assumptions?

 

 

 

Foolish nub.

 

 

 

I don't need to know their exact 'search protocols, tools and methods' are.

 

 

 

All I need are eyes that see and a brain that works.

 

 

 

Specifically:

 

analyzing behaviour and comparing primitive bots like fisher or woodcutter bots to that of suspected bots, and then comparing both to that of known humans... not hard is it?

 

 

 

a decent memory and noticing patterns like

 

'hey those 3 guys are all acting weird and they are all similar combat levels and hmmm similar stat-builds....'

 

'oh wow, those Asian sweatshoppers seem to really like this style of hair on their female characters'

 

'oh look, he's leaving tons of valuable herbs lying on the ground, that's not logical'

 

'oh look, I've gotten the jump on attacking the blue dragon for a 5th time in a row and he's still standing there when a human would complain, swear at me, move to another spot or hop worlds....'

 

 

 

being able to type and ask questions like

 

'hey are you a bot'

 

'okay, then what am i wearing?'

 

 

 

and being able to reason that

 

'?', 'hi', 'this my spot', 'kk' and my personal favourite 'sorry I am busy' are fishy particularily if their context does not match what you asked

 

 

 

also remembering that some people are muted and can't type but they can answer with emotes (Yes and No emotes are quite useful)

 

 

 

studying philosophy, anthropology and psychology at university (as I currently do) helps but isn't necessary.

[meili]

and no computer program is perfect at hiding what it is meant to hide.

 

 

 

Not sure where you are going here, are you actually implying that Jagex has effective anti-botting programs? I mean, all you have to do is log in to see all the autoers.

[Duke_Freedom]

I didn't know IGE was partially funded by someone trying to hide his money from child abuse victims, really makes you think how bad RWT is.

 

 

 

Actually... Pretty much everything Fey Warrior talks about is a result of the black market aspect. Allowing it the way Sony did gets rid of all those issues in an instant.

 

 

 

Black markets have always attracted more serious crime when the money involved gets serious and when the rule-enforcers blow at actually enforcing rules, as is the case with RWT.

 

 

 

The only thing IGE shows is the huge hypocrisy of game companies. They don't even dare to take up a lawsuit against the company - and the main reason behind that is that they know they'll take a significant risk that they will actually loose such a case, which would then serve as example for many RWT cases.

 

 

 

Game companies close their eyes for the real crime and only deal with the small fish that they can handle and whom are generally insignificant in the larger picture. The player population is so blind that they can't even see through all of this.

[Fey_Warrior]

 

I think you also should note a popular color scripting macro program that is very popular today (not by gold farmers but) by the cheating community because it does not interact with the server, but still works great when using a good script so the detection percentage is very, very slim to non existent.

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Fey_Warrior please spare us for the political propaganda that everyone lives in fear and that if you steal a candy bar the next thing that happens is that you blow up a building or two. Reality check one two one two.

 

 

 

Hi Fredz,

 

 

 

I suggest you read those articles. This is not fiction.

 

 

 

The current owners/founders of IGE are individuals who worked on the board of DEN. Both Interpol and the FBI have conducted investigations into DEN. It was DEN that produced that disturbing material & allegations which later resulted in convictions against the head of DEN. This is merely one example, of the kinds of people that run these companies, of which IGE is currently the largest.

 

 

 

Anyone who believes that Gold Farming companies are legitimate upstanding corporate citizens on the Internet, are the ones who aren't living in the real world. Even the Chinese government is seriously considering prohibiting Gold Farmers from operating in their country due to the criminal elements they see are involved in what now is a at least 7 billion dollar a year trade (that figure is being IGE's estimated income alone). The Korean Government has already taken steps to curb the illegal trade, and protect the MMO industry in it's country; it allows individuals to join exchanges and trade items & gold where permitted by a game's developers.

 

 

 

As your examples show these kinds of exploits and abuses by bots and the later Gold Farmers have long been a concern to RuneScape and it's players. These concerns are shared across many MMO companies and subscribers so affects far more than the players of RuneScape.

 

 

 

It's only now legislators in some of our countries are looking at it's effects, not just upon the gaming industry but on the many of it's citizens. Given many players in MMO are minors (teens included) are particularly vulnerable, both the companies and governments are need to show parents that they are acting against these illegal traders in MMO 'virtual worlds'.

 

 

 

As for that colour scripting program is still also a blatant violation of the RuneScape's Terms of Service. That site is known to Jagex too. Players who do that kind of cheating obviously care nothing for the harm they do the the player community or the way such sites are used to source further bots/autos/macroers for Gold Farming groups.

 

 

 

To say there are no real threats to today's MMO communities, from these rule-breakers is sadly remiss. This does not mean we should shrink or cower; it means we need to be informed about Internet safety and measures to inform all players about why we should not allow such malicious people to exploit our game or our community.

 

 

 

Please do me the courtesy of reading the material I've quoted to support these statements, before criticising the points made.

 

 

 

Thanks.

[Fey_Warrior]

I didn't know IGE was partially funded by someone trying to hide his money from child abuse victims, really makes you think how bad RWT is.

 

 

 

Actually... Pretty much everything Fey Warrior talks about is a result of the black market aspect. Allowing it the way Sony did gets rid of all those issues in an instant.

 

 

 

Black markets have always attracted more serious crime when the money involved gets serious and when the rule-enforcers blow at actually enforcing rules, as is the case with RWT.

 

 

 

The only thing IGE shows is the huge hypocrisy of game companies. They don't even dare to take up a lawsuit against the company - and the main reason behind that is that they know they'll take a significant risk that they will actually loose such a case, which would then serve as example for many RWT cases.

 

 

 

Game companies close their eyes for the real crime and only deal with the small fish that they can handle and whom are generally insignificant in the larger picture. The player population is so blind that they can't even see through all of this.

 

 

 

As the new CEO said in a recent interview RuneScape is not written to allow real item exchange that would still leave a balanced game for those players who did not want to buy expensive items with real money.

 

 

 

Maybe other games Jagex may write may be capable of it.

 

 

 

The other problem posed by allowing companies allowing RWT is that it doesn't stop illegal activities or trade. If anything it further complicates issues of ownership and transactions. One only need browse the plethora of issues currently faced by Second Life and other games like Entropa and Sony's EverQuest II.

 

 

 

While it's true there was a time when only players cared about these issues, back in the day. Now thanks to all players in many games, companies realise, that if a game isn't designed from scratch to allow RWT it will damage it's subscribers, and many are beginning to act. The fact that Gold Farmers are now looking at taking billions via RWT has inevitably attracted the attention of governments, tax departments, criminals and law enforcement (not all in that order).

 

 

 

Our challenge as concerned players is to ensure our voice is heard and that the game we play, is taking these problems seriously.

 

 

 

The sheer amount of money involved in RWT though is actually intimidating, since one can imagine with that amount of money comes a lot of buying power. Power to buy software engineers to crack, exploit and avoid detection. Along with that power and the fact these companies operate outside of any contractual arrangement with the games exploited, they are able to avoid all the other obligations of online or service industries, including protection of consumers from identity theft and fraud.

 

 

 

I am concerned about these developments, which is why I seek to share information and raise awareness of these issues among my fellow players.

 

 

 

In the conversations I have had with some staff at Jagex, they are aware of IGE and the history of it's founders, as well as the abuses players suffer at the hands of these groups. If anything they do share our concerns, but they also must listen to the voices of players who don't want to see measures that would take away from their game-play. Ultimately it's a compromise between freedom to play the game how we would like, as well as putting in place measures to stop those who would exploit those features that would detract from our game. It's a very hard balance for companies like Jagex to reach on their own without our input.

 

 

 

We as players need to consider the best ways to suggest improvements and measures, that will keep our game safe from these cheats and malicious people, while keeping it usable and most importantly of all, enjoyable to play.

 

 

 

Here is a site of other MMO player groups, seeking to inform players and take action against Gold Farming, which do have some links to recent legal manoeuvrings: http://www.nogold.org/ If the class-action by players against IGE linked from this site, gains any traction, lets hope Blizzard and other MMOs like Jagex follow suit.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Fey.

[Duke_Freedom]

7 billion dollar a year trade (that figure is being IGE's estimated income alone).

 

Just a small correction:

 

Some experts believe that the market for virtual assets will overcome the primary marketÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[RichieMcD]

I think they will be undetectable to a certain extent. I dont use them but i fully know how they work.

 

 

 

See they could be undetectable to a certain extent as they are programmed to deal with randoms but if its a highly suspected macro a mod could always check it out.

 

 

 

they can be programmed to log-out and in every certain period of time so it looks like a human playing.

 

 

 

Macros are also able to auto talk. So they can react to keywords such as there combat level...... username...... keywords such as bot or macro. When they react they can type a certain message such as ''no im not''.

 

 

 

So basiclay my idea is that they can be unpredictable to everything but a actul human authority such as a P MOD or J MOD

[highlanders]

they already are pretty impossible to detect.

 

I second that. They aren't completely impossible to detect, but pretty much. Of what I've heard, when the system has doubts about a player being a macroer, they spam that macroer with a ton of random events in order to make them log out. Then the macro automatically logs in again, then logs out, and logs in again, and this is how Jagex knows it is a macroer. So we know their system can detect something which can create doubts, but they are still forced to use this simplistic technique to know if they are or not. If their system was good, they would know instantly who is botting, then ban them on the spot. But obviously, since the macros are roaming free all around Runescape without being banned on the spot, their system is not good enough - thus why the bots are pretty much impossible to detect.

[Fredz]

Fey_Warrior thanks for taking your time to answer.

 

 

 

I just want to clear up:

 

I'm aware that the whole industry stinks and I'm very happy with the way JageX are trying to fix the issue. There is nothing better than to see rule breakers getting banned from the game so us legit players can play in peace on a fair competitive platform.

 

 

 

The only thing I didn't like was how you were generalizing the bot/macro/gold farmer industry. Of course after reading your post(s) over 2 more times I didn't find too much to base my arguments on, so I conclude that I did jump to conclusions a bit quickly.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to the Dev Diary myself. I personally hope that JageX will state that they will go to extreme lengths to fix the problem(s). And I think they will as they have already changed (or ruined, depends how you look at it) the duel arena.

[JimmyMcNabb]

as the macros get more advanced, so do the macro detection programs. It's just a big ole game of cat and mouse where one day you end up with a badger and a lion...

[epeeflecher]

When bots can avoid detection by Jagex, that is when Jagex is not doing their job.

 

 

 

If bots ever could avoid detection they'd be easily detectable as other accounts would use the same motion, and patterns when confronted with a complex pattern in-game(such a a complex random event).

 

 

 

Then again if someone can develope a software program that doesn't repeat a pattern, and its actions are different in any case, and only similar enough to look like human motions/actions, then yes it may be difficult for Jagex to detect.

 

 

 

But by that time, software to prevent this will be available, and in-game activities will stop this. -.-

[D. V. Devnull]

If a bot can pass the Turing Test, I MUST say it will be a turning point in the history of mankind. Most of the current bots nowadays can't even engage in conversation (pardon me if I am mistaken).

 

Perhaps in the future it will be "That's one small step for a bot, one giant leap for mankind."

 

There are auto responders, how effective they are depends on the time put into it. When I used to macro, I made a very nice auto responder. I kept logs of everything that happened, and there were entire conversations between my macros and players that thought they were talking to real people.

 

I have an idea for you then, Iamdan... How about you send those logs in to Jagex, with commentaries from you as well as videos and source code and such, and help Jagex with defeating the Autoers/Macroers/RWT'ers? Maybe you can get a job with Jagex after facing a little jail time to pay for your sins too, and really have fun with code and programming, and fight on the right side of the war for a change!

 

 

 

~Mr. Devnull