Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish

[magekillr]

anyone who thinks merchanting is dead obviously cannot do simple mathematics

 

 

 

lemme put it to you the way Peter from Office Space put it:

 

 

 

fractions of a penny seems like nothing...who cares about that? multiply that fraction several thousand...even several million times

 

 

 

adds up now doesn't it?

 

 

 

know how the GE works, and you will have no problems exploiting it for profit.

 

 

 

i haven't interacted with a single player since it's come out (trading wise) and have made 150-200M :-w

[Rock Hard]

Qeltar, I expected nothing less from you. -.-

 

 

 

I agree with everything Aquashock said. Even if he is nh scum. ;)

 

 

 

I think the recent changes are detrimental to the basis of RS being a 'free game' whereby you pick and choose the aspects you most enjoy - And specialize. Perhaps thats because Jadex removed the only aspects of the game I enjoyed and was good at. :P

 

 

 

However, I understand the financial situation behind the 'updates'. If action wasn't taken we would soon have no RS. Now I just hope they can fix the godawful mess they have made of my game.

[alcoolj]

If I can generalise your post in one sentence, it would be "This update is good as the only people who it affects are pures/pkers who are mostly scumbags"

 

 

 

I guess I am one of those scumbags, as the primary reason I play RS is/was to pk solo at edge, and to pk with my clan on weekly trips. I also did my share of skilling, but pking is/was the part of the game I enjoyed the most.

 

 

 

This update affects more than just pking though. Clan wars update is good for clans? Rubbish. You see, last month I initiated a training competion in our clan, with highest trained combat stats in P2P, F2P, rewarded with over 2.6M in prizes. We celebrated the 10 or so people who achived high training scores by hosting a party with beer and festivities for all and had a blast. We were to hold further competitions due to how successful it was. This update has stopped my ability to do this ever again, and feel saddened by that.

 

 

 

Bounty Hunter mini-game would appear from all Jagex's literature to show which individual has the brawn/brains to make it big. It is not that way at all. The highscores mean nothing, merely which individual has hung around with the largest clan inside the game. Dieing inside BH is next to impossible in F2P, due to the ease of escaping through the cave holes. It is extremely rare to pk 1 on 1, and you can be sure that even if you win, a pjer will be on your back quicker than before! BH actually encourages pjing, not deterring it. I have played both P2P and F2P Bounty Hunter, and neither apeal to me a whole lot. remember, I am a pker at heart! Surely this must tell you something about the success/failure of the mini-game.

 

 

 

Whats next from Jagex? Will they remove all chat functions from the game, as they seem to want us not to communicate with each other and play a solitary game. Should I go play minesweeper?

[qeltar]

Aquashock, you make some valid points in an elegant manner, so thank you for that. And I can certainly understand your frustration. I know (and said) that certainly there are legitimate PKers who are being caught in the crossfire here. Just as innocent skillers, monster slayers and generous players are being caught in it.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, while there were many fair and reasonable PKers, the community as a whole was the pits. This, combined with the RWT problem, gave Jagex an obvious incentive to just clean up the whole mess once and for all.

 

 

 

And yes, lots of other players will be affected, and items will drop in value, but that's really not the end of the world.

 

 

 

alcoolj, I hear you. Again, I do think Jagex needs to improve all of the changes it introduced yesterday.

[Duke_Freedom]

anyone who thinks merchanting is dead obviously cannot do simple mathematics

 

 

 

Nah it is just what I predicted beforehand about the GE. Most merchants don't have all that much skill and blow at adapting to new circumstances. The few skilled ones who could adapt quickly are now looking at a market without (m)any merchants and thus with huge profit margins, like the ones you apparently have been making. :)

[Ghost-Knigth]

Have you ever been in a clan?

 

 

 

What does that have to do with this discussion?

 

 

 

 

Quite much, because if he had, he would know how much this updated ruins for clans.

 

And no, Clan Wars are just not the same. And neither is Bounty Hunter. Again, I must say, that Bounty is full of 1-itemers and teams piling loners (which I believe will be rare to find in the future).

[bedman]

anyone who thinks merchanting is dead obviously cannot do simple mathematics

 

 

 

lemme put it to you the way Peter from Office Space put it:

 

 

 

fractions of a penny seems like nothing...who cares about that? multiply that fraction several thousand...even several million times

 

 

 

adds up now doesn't it?

 

 

 

know how the GE works, and you will have no problems exploiting it for profit.

 

 

 

i haven't interacted with a single player since it's come out (trading wise) and have made 150-200M :-w

 

 

 

Thats what i'm trying to explain in some other topic (how do you make money).

 

Nice one :-).

 

What Duke sais: dunno if its that difficult to understand how it works?

 

 

 

Before GE you could make bigger profits (higher than 5%), cut some

 

really nice unexpected deals.

 

 

 

Now its everything "en masse". Predictable, but also reliable, and no hassle of looking for buyers/sellers. Just put it in the GE, do something else tada. So as long as you got a few 100s of mill to invest, you can make tons of money selling and reselling some random item (coal, yews, pure ess, iron ore, runes, ...) at a 1-5gp profit.

[Fredz]

RS talks and ideas worth spreading:

 

qeltar - Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish

 

 

 

 

 

One more light in these dark days. I was hoping that someone (you actually) was going to write a piece like this so I could let some of my frustration go.

 

 

 

Thanks Q~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a side note:

 

 

Those who are whining about PKing ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åbeing destroyedÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[meili]

Those who are whining about PKing ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åbeing destroyedÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[Blingkachi50]

Another great article by qeltar. You hit the nail right on the head. I also appreciate how you pointed out that trading and monster hunting are the real things that this update effected, not pking. :thumbsup:

[777thzapster]

This is what I have been thinking since the update came out. Everyone chooses to look at what they lost. I look at how many bad people and players that we lose so that Runescape is an overall better game to be played. You should definately add me when you see this because I need someone that understands what is going on to chat.. Great Great article.

[o_knames]

Some of Qeltar's recent posts I haven't been too keen on, but this one I'm fully behind.

 

 

 

To add my own thoughts, the changes have generally eliminated two things: 1) a fun diversion; and/or 2) ways to gain items/money. I'm pretty sure those things are in still abundant supply in other forms. Any player who is not willing to adapt should maybe step back and consider all the alternatives available to them.

 

 

 

There have been some creative solutions proposed to re-introduce legitimate activities back into the game. If we're constructive and persistent, hopefully we can have these changes implemented.

[hellbellz]

anyone who thinks merchanting is dead obviously cannot do simple mathematics

 

Oh, I can do math problems.

 

 

 

I'm just too lazy to get those few fractions of pennies, after pennies, after pennies.

[Sly_Wizard]

I've said this in the past and I'll say it again, but you're an idiot. And not just any idiot, but an idiot blinded by his own bias. You've let it be known time and time again that you detest PK'ers ever since some pure killed you while you trying to collect green dragonhides. So, knowing this, why should anyone care a lick about what you have to say about the wilderness changes? Not only have you never, ever, ever, ever PK'ed in your life (Your own admission there), but you've never, ever, ever, ever been in a clan before in your life (Also your own admission). Quite frankly, you have zero room to talk of PK'ers and what-not, since you wouldn't be speaking from experience but rather ignorance (Not to mention of your posterior).

 

 

 

You say that the wilderness will be better off overall. Please explain. You can't just make a statement without elaborating. Also, the assertion that most resources in the wilderness will be used more now is just inane. The only activitiy which has more people participating in it is abyss runecrafting (Which is ridiculously broken now as there is virtually NO risk in runecrafting there). Apparently you haven't tried mining and/or killing green dragons.

 

 

 

Anywho, all I've gotta' say is down with the update. It's, by far, the dumbest idea Jagex has ever come up with. Yeah, that's not very insightful, but I'm far to pissed off to write anything more than that. I loved PK'ing, and now it's gone :(

[Liska112]

In my view, Jagex is doing a great thing stopping RWT's, but they are simply not implementing it correctly.

 

 

 

First off, I have to say that Jagex has effectively ruined solo pking, as going alone is just asking to be picked off by a team, and some people will say "If you don't like it don't go!", which I say is not a reasonable statement/argument, I hope Jagex will either add another mini game like Bounty Hunter (sept' more balanced), or that they will bring back traditional Pking. And I must point out that Luring has not been destroyed, it's still possible in BH.

 

 

 

Second, Jagex has removed uneven trades, which not only means you can't pay what you want for items, but you cant give things away, The only way I can see to fix this is a "Lend Item" system, in which you could go to a bank with a friend give the banker an item, and type in the players name you want to lend it to, in which the player who you are trying to lend too has 5minutes to "Request" an item from the player who is trying to loan the item to the recipient for up to 48 hours, before it is automaticlly transfered back to the owners bank (The person who currently has the lent item will receive a 20minute warning before hand to prevent mishaps) Items would still be lost if the player died and did not get to their grave stone in time.

 

 

 

In addition to my second point/suggestion, I suggest that a new lootshare option is added, considering that you cannot evenly distribute goods between players anymore, KQ/DK/CE'ers will have their will to do so heavily diluted, as someone might end up rich, and the other groupies will end up the same as before, I propose an option, which when activated via clan settings, makes it so that any drop over 300k receives a "LS" tag at the end of its name, which means if the item is alched, traded, or grand exchanged, the gold that lands in the inventory of person who received the drop, will be evenly (automaticly) distributed between all of the groupies.

 

 

 

Onto Duel arena, I feel some sympathy for people who actually developed gambling problems at the duel arena, in real life, I believe a max staking cap of 100k should be introduced, and that both players should have to bet the exact same amount of money, I believe this would make duel arena actually still worth having in the game. (Also, you should only be able to stake someone 100k, win or lose, once every hour to help things)

 

 

 

And sadly, I do believe the updates are better for the future of RS, I do wish that Jagex would have thought things out better, and implemented more sensible things.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry if I'm rambling, I felt the need to post something on tip.it, as I have just realised I've been using tip.it for about 3 years now and haven't ever posted, and I felt like adding my opinion :o

[Slayer_Jesse]

i must say, i had lost my confidence in you with some of your posts on recent updates, but consider that confidence restored. you could not have put it any better! i hope that you will be a continuing contributor to the tip.it times. bravo. =D>

[ashozzy2]

your views on pking are what I call the "average tip.iter". WE ENJOY PKING and yes there may be pjers tagers at edg. But deep wilderness you realy cant. A main source of money for me was pking. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean its bad or should go. Also you clearly have no idea about the clan world, we are now ruined as BH fights are terrible; people just drag then exit the cave.

 

 

 

Seriously take your dumb [wagon] skilling morals and views and shove them up your [wagon]

[klankaos]

Beautifully said, Qeltar, as always. I'm always happy to read another of your articles, and this one's better than most. You raise some points people really do need to look at, and then systematically destroy other people's points of view, which is, after all, what essay writing is all about, no? Convincing someone you're right? =D

 

 

 

I noticed that the only people arguing with you were, as predicted, PKers. Interesting. And I also noticed that most of them attacked you personally rather than your article. Does this prove your points? I'd say so.

 

 

 

Well written. Ten kittens out of ten.

[xpandax]

Nearly every aspect of Runescape was designed towards benefiting combat. What reason is there to cook or to fish, without combat, what reason is there to mine and to smith, without combat. If you look at any skill, most of them benefit combat in some way, shape or form.

 

 

 

Some use the argument of bounty hunter as still being pking... but it isn't. You say pking was unfair, look at bounty hunter. What my fellow player, is fair about level 3-55, 55-100, and 95-126's all fighting eachother? Bounty hunter was clearly implemented with zero logic applied to it. The level ranges are ridiculous! If a 55+ pure has no chance against a 80+ pure then what chance does a "normal" player have against such an opponent? Even then, if you trained your account to the maximum level per cave it is still unfair combat. As soon as you get into the cave, you are instantly teamed. What in God's name was jagex thinking making it multi combat? Did they honestly expect someone to track down a single target, when they can be piled instantly by multiple people. How can you make it multi combat without seeing that teams would easily organize and take over.

 

 

 

I have played since before the mask drops, and one of the few remaining aspects of runescape i enjoyed was hopping onto my legitimate, non-drop traded pure and pk with a small group of real life friends who only played for those nights we all hopped on and watched eachother combat other well-trained accounts. And after my love of the wilderness, even I would be satisfied with bounty hunter if it was implemented correctly.

 

 

 

Now what truly has me upset is Jagex's blatant attack towards pkers. If you keep the drop updates, and trading updates, and simply make it impossible to enter the wild with non-combat gear, with exception to runecrafting gear then there was no reason to eliminate wilderness pking. How can you transfer things by killing another player when all there is to gain is their combat equipment? You can make the argument that RWt's could sell the combat equipment, but what player is going to pick up full guthan's and repair it just to sell it off for its GP value, it would cost the farmers too much time to make it worthwhile to do business this way.

 

 

 

Lastly, this attack on such a specific group of players, who undoubtedly make up a reasonable amount of jagex's paid subscriptions truly makes me sad to see how ridiculous the community has become. When i see people who enjoy skilling literally insulting and attacking those who preferred player to player combat, just because we are now in a vulnerable situation is disgusting. If they removed major aspects of your skilling enjoyment, I would be right there with you intelligently hoping for some sort of balance.

[berbatovsky]

I've said this in the past and I'll say it again, but you're an idiot. And not just any idiot, but an idiot blinded by his own bias. You've let it be known time and time again that you detest PK'ers ever since some pure killed you while you trying to collect green dragonhides. So, knowing this, why should anyone care a lick about what you have to say about the wilderness changes? Not only have you never, ever, ever, ever PK'ed in your life (Your own admission there), but you've never, ever, ever, ever been in a clan before in your life (Also your own admission). Quite frankly, you have zero room to talk of PK'ers and what-not, since you wouldn't be speaking from experience but rather ignorance (Not to mention of your posterior).

 

 

 

You say that the wilderness will be better off overall. Please explain. You can't just make a statement without elaborating. Also, the assertion that most resources in the wilderness will be used more now is just inane. The only activitiy which has more people participating in it is abyss runecrafting (Which is ridiculously broken now as there is virtually NO risk in runecrafting there). Apparently you haven't tried mining and/or killing green dragons.

 

 

 

Anywho, all I've gotta' say is down with the update. It's, by far, the dumbest idea Jagex has ever come up with. Yeah, that's not very insightful, but I'm far to pissed off to write anything more than that. I loved PK'ing, and now it's gone :(

 

 

 

A few points:

 

 

 

1)This is his opinion (stated as such) so obviously its filled with his 'bias'.

 

2)I abyss crafted a bit (few hundred trips) and never came close to dying to the pkers there(aside from lag and I still didn't take more than 30 damage total), nor did I see anyone die.

 

3)I saw a spectral Dark beast just outside the abyss today, it wasnt close enough to attack but it looked fearsome and also probably holds more threat than abyss pkers.

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand its slightly unfair to pkers, as has been mentioned pjing is promoted in the new 'mini game'.

 

I also feel the difference in price should be extended to 10% (min and max) of the median price (in trades and in the GE), also maybe allow ONE gifted item of value below 2 mil every month or something.

[EugenyG]

Read your post.

 

 

 

As always, you present a valid line of arguments, even though in my opinion they are one-sided and do not cover the issues that (to me) matter the most.

 

 

 

I agree that the "rubbish" that you got rid of is indeed rubbish, but the problem is that a lot of it was either a rubbish performing an important role (despite being rubbish) or was attached and supporting aspects that were supporting important roles.

 

 

 

If you imagine all the rubbish you described as cancer infecting lungs, than Jagex removed the rubbish by cutting out the lungs alltogether. There. Problem solved.

 

 

 

When you deal with issues such fundamentally supporting how RS works, you just can't have such heavy-handed measures. Problematic issues should be isolated and treated with surgical strikes, and side effects should be thought about beforehand. All vital aspects should have replacements, and even though Jagex claimed they do (in that little list in the article), they didn't really address the biggest issue for me - freedom.

 

 

 

Yes, bots suck. Yes, merchants exploit noobs. Yes, duellists win millions in a single stake while noobs toil for months in manual labor. Yes, this. Yes, that. But nonwithstanding anything, I simply don't enjoy playing a totalitarian game, and I will always choose an insecure but free environment over a secure non-free one.

 

 

 

I want the freedom of action, without being controlled by a nanny who knows what's best for me better than myself. I want the right to act stupid or imprudent, if I so wish. I want to play a game where my decisions influence my consequences, rather than live in an artificial soapbox. I want to be able to face risks and pay the price of failure, rather than having both joy and pain taken away from me, again, "for my own good".

 

 

 

I want to earn my own. I want to be able to pull myself up through any means legal, rather than have someone else's morality imposed upon me, as well as the logic on what a player "should" or "should not" do in a given situation. I don't want to be part of a "fairness quota", and the "maximum wage" Jagex thinks its "fair" for a player to make. I want to be able to risk a thousand times, and lose the first 999, but on the thousanth time come out in a moment of glory. I want to earn things rather than have them be given to me, and have full ownership and freedom to do with what I earned.

 

 

 

I am an individual, and refuse to become a statistic or a tool in the hands of the system.

 

 

 

Perhaps the ten year old kids with respectfully disagree, though. :P

 

 

 

P.S. As for your attitude over the "whiners", saying how they are all ignorant noobs and should be banned on sight. Hmm, you have something there. Come to think of it, aren't all those demonstrators picketing in front of the White House protesting Bush's latest move, a bunch of idiots too? TEAR GAS I say! I mean, surely if they had a valid point, they'd employ more "intelligent" means than to march around with signs like total fools.

 

 

 

What about the famous Baltic human chain where 500,000 people stretched hand-to-hand to protest Communist rule?

 

 

 

What about the Tianamen square protests? Only a total fool would stand in front of tanks instead of respectfully writing their government about their grievances, right?

 

 

 

Sometimes "primeval" actions like a physical demonstrations work better than what you consider to be "intelligent" responses. And once a community has been wronged, they have the moral right to react, even if you don't particularly like the type of reaction.

[Sly_Wizard]

A few points:

 

 

 

1)This is his opinion (stated as such) so obviously its filled with his 'bias'.

 

 

 

No, he tried to pass it off as his 'opinion' after someone happened to mention something about him being biased.

 

 

 

*Points to first page*

 

 

 

Really, though, I don't even see the point in wasting my time trying to make sense of his irrational hatred towards the PK'ing community. Statements such as this:

 

 

 

PKers and pures. The same groups who always engage in idiotic behavior any time a change is made that affects their gameplay.

 

 

 

and this:

 

 

 

Pures were predominantly used for PKing and staking, and were the source of many of the biggest problems in the game: cheating (through drop trading), fighting over resources like easily killed monsters, scamming (at the Duel Arena and elsewhere), supporting bots through large purchases of ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åpower trainingÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[berbatovsky]

A few points:

 

 

 

1)This is his opinion (stated as such) so obviously its filled with his 'bias'.

 

 

 

No, he tried to pass it off as his 'opinion' after someone happened to mention something about him being biased

 

 

 

*Points to first page*

 

 

 

I don't even see the point in wasting my time trying to make sense of his irrational hatred towards the PK'ing community. Statements such as this:

 

 

 

PKers and pures. The same groups who always engage in idiotic behavior any time a change is made that affects their gameplay.

 

 

 

Just goes to show how woefully ignorant some people can truly be! :thumbsup:

 

 

 

2)I abyss crafted a bit (few hundred trips) and never came close to dying to the pkers there(aside from lag and I still didn't take more than 30 damage total), nor did I see anyone die.

 

 

 

3)I saw a spectral Dark beast just outside the abyss today, it wasnt close enough to attack but it looked fearsome and also probably holds more threat than abyss pkers.

 

 

 

No, it really doesn't hold any more threat than your average RC PK'er. Just look at the sheer number of people now runecrafting via the abyss versus those runecrafting via the abyss prior to the update. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding. And, before you say it, easier =/= better.

 

 

 

Dude I rced for 2 hours today, 4/5 people there the whole time (doing runs that is), server was 1800+, exactly the same as a month ago when I last rced.

 

 

 

As I said in HUNDREDS of trips I wasn't killed nor nearly killed and never saw anyone die, so plaintively rc pkers weren't in any way dangerous (they were a distraction at most). Incidentally I have died about 10 times in the last 4 months to monsters (God wars was FUN when you didn't know wth was going on)and also I've died pking at a couple of places (all north of level 20 wildy). Really abyss pkers ranked reeeeeeeeeeal low on the threat scale(lower than an abherrant specter).

 

 

 

This is not Qeltars FACT SHEET OF FACTS, this is an article he wrote detailing his thoughts on a subject, since when has any post on a forum (other than news posts) been anything else? Just because someone doesn't explicitly state a post/article is just their opinion doesn't mean it is being presented as anything else.

[ikraz66]

The real problem now is that pkers, (also duelers) while a minority, used MOST of the cooked fish, potions, high level arrows/knives/darts, runes, and more, and also used a large portion of the expensive armors and weapons. Many skillers claim that this update doesn't affect them, but in fact, the demand for their finished supplies has fallen drastically.

 

 

 

Consider this: Pking and dueling were the largest activities in runescape that had a net loss of items in runescape. While some people could make money from it, it required someone else to lose MORE than they gained. On average, all pkers lost more than they gained by pking. I realize that construction and a few other skills also take gp and logs out of the game, but they also have non-monetary rewards, and aren't extremely popular anyway (not like pking).

[hyjack01]

You certainly have excellent writingtalents, Queltar..

 

 

 

However, I have the impression that your desire for writing a good article is blurring your objective view on the case?

 

 

 

Wasn't it you who compared the introduction of the GE with a controlled 'communistic' system? Wasn't it you who detested the thought about Jagex trying to oppose the laws of a free market?

 

These last updates support only more control and seem to take away any 'freedom' what was left in the game. Do mature players (like you?), need limitations in what is allowed to trade&lend&give to another player? I don't, I can judge for myself..

 

 

 

Maybe all those kids aged 8-13 who aren't 'allowed' to play RS need some guidance in trading.(One of your first articles here, if I recall correctly, about Jagex 'secretly' focussing on these young customers) Perhaps it's time Jagex redefines their marketingpolicy and just make RS a game for 8-13.. Then these updates make some sense to me.

 

 

 

And no, I'm no pker, no merchant. Just a skiller, who occasionally does ]some bossmonsterhunting, pking and sharing items with friends...

 

 

 

EDIT: Just read EugenyG 's reply. Very well stated. Says it all for me and many others....