11th June 2009 - Macro-detection systems update

[Iamdan]

I've been told their new macro detection thing is fake randoms. (by a player not jagex) I gather they just send fake random event id's to the client, but don't actually trigger the random. Regular players will experience nothing, macroers on edited clients will try and solve the fake random = ban.

 

 

 

I don't know for sure though, and I'm not going to check the client because my deobfuscator broke with the last game engine update, (you need to make a custom one because runescape is written in runescript not java) and I also can't be [bleep]ed.

 

 

 

I've been suggesting jagex ban edited clients on login for a while now, otherwise their reflection system is going to waste... I asked a jmod about it, I can't share the answer because it was in a surgery but it was a pretty bad one. They were quiet for ages (I assume they went and asked a superior) and then gave me a bull [cabbage] answer that didn't really make sense. I didn't press the point because I was already a bit worried they might ban me for deobing the client.

 

 

 

I also just have to correct whoever said reductio ad absurdum means disproving by contraction. It actually means exaggerating a point to something ridiculous and criticizing it.

 

 

 

People getting banned from edited clients are 100% accurate, there are no wrong bannings there because of the reflection system. With colour clickers, I can see people being wrongly banned because it is almost impossible to distinguish them from a real player. Well over 95% of macroers use edited clients, so I'm guessing jagex are just thinking the few people wrongly banned don't matter.

[Gribbzldinho]

 

I think Bauke knows about that better than you do.

 

 

 

And I think my friends who are/were in SS and can access the high level forums know about it better. Fact is, no one knows whether he did or didnt except Lucipher and Jagex. Assiwat can appeal for him all he likes and defend his innocence, but he can only take Luciphers' word for it.

 

 

 

Either he was banned for macro'ing or he played too damn much that he was possibly viewed as a macroer. Jagex wont ban the rank third player (who was also a player mod) without extensive research.

 

 

 

Oh and lets just clarify that he wasnt banned for using mousekeys as he believes occurred. I and many others use mouse keys and have not been banned.

[glasscube]

I think I'm going to quit this thread. No matter how many times I say it, people just keep ignoring it. You have NO SOLID EVIDENCE of innocent people being banned for macroing. You have nothing but heresay, nothing but words from the mouths of the accused, who will always deny their involvement to the very end. Have fun with your fruitless discussion.

 

 

 

What I find funny is, people on sites dedicated to cheating complain how their legit accounts get banned, and not their bot accounts.

 

 

 

Also, it is not as easy as detecting if the RS client is modified - because in a lot[/b] of cases the client IS NOT modified.

[Bauke]

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing while he was using mousekeys. 'nuff said.

 

 

 

Lucipher6 was banned for macro'ing. 'Nuff said.

 

 

 

You dont know if hes completely innocent.

 

He's unbanned, that means Jagex admitted to making a mistake.

 

 

 

 

I think Bauke knows about that better than you do.

 

 

 

And I think my friends who are/were in SS and can access the high level forums know about it better. Fact is, no one knows whether he did or didnt except Lucipher and Jagex. Assiwat can appeal for him all he likes and defend his innocence, but he can only take Luciphers' word for it.

 

 

 

Either he was banned for macro'ing or he played too damn much that he was possibly viewed as a macroer. Jagex wont ban the rank third player (who was also a player mod) without extensive research.

 

 

 

Oh and lets just clarify that he wasnt banned for using mousekeys as he believes occurred. I and many others use mouse keys and have not been banned.

 

I can access the high level forums, and I quote:

 

Considering the only possible reason I could think of for being mistaken for macroing was the way in which I used mousekeys...[sentence continues is not further relevant]

 

 

 

He is innocent. If he was macroing, Jagex would have detected that (as they have said). Apparently he was a false positive due to (probably!) mousekeys. That means the system is not bullet proof, at all. If he wasn't innocent, he wouldn't be unbanned.

[jak94]

sooo

 

i just started wondering , can they detect auto alchers?

 

I was standing next to some guy , 3 mounths ago.

 

And is autoalching unfair?

[Seer]

sooo

 

i just started wondering , can they detect auto alchers?

 

I was standing next to some guy , 3 mounths ago.

 

And is autoalching unfair?

 

 

 

yes they can detect it. my friend tried doing it once, he got 50k exp and got a temp ban for it.

[Gribbzldinho]

 

He's unbanned, that means Jagex admitted to making a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Or it means Jagex gave him another chance. I know you cant provide information from that forum here, but are there exact quotes from Jagex stating that it was a mistake and Lucipher didnt macro in any way? Have you read a conversation between him and a Jagex mod? It helps that he knows Mod Andrew personally, too.

 

 

 

Like I said, he got banned for either macro'ing, or playing too much (a la Zezima a while back). He wasnt banned for mousekeys. My friends and myself use them and one has used them extensively for a long time cutting teaks to 25m+ exp in woodcutting. So if he is completely innocent and it is the latter reason, then I think that is the biggest wake up call one needs to realise life doesnt revolve around Runescape.

[Zaaps1]

 

He's unbanned, that means Jagex admitted to making a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Or it means Jagex gave him another chance.

 

 

 

The second chance they said no one would have?

[Inuashakent]

I didn't read the (huge) posts above, just the OP so...

 

 

 

Here's my opinion on the Macro topic... I hate how they are trying to remain firm. I think it's just arrogant making the appeals more harsh (or nonexistant), especially with all the mains being banned for "macroing."

 

 

 

You would rather they went soft and let things go back to how they were pre-GE/wilderness-get-rid-off-ness-ness? To be perfectly honest, if they catch someone who is, in their honest opinion, a bot (bear in mind that they are in the best possible position to know this), then they have every right to ban them and deny any chance of an appeal. Your tone suggests that you believe there are many people being banned erroneously, but are you able to provide evidence of anyone who has without a doubt been wrongfully banned? I said it before, I'll say it again, if you play the game honestly, and keep your account secure, then you'll have nothing to worry about.

 

Err... I have friends who were banned who (I would know) obviously didn't use macros. In fact, some have been banned for using mousekeys... Jagex's macro detection make catch all the bots, sure, but what's the point if innocent people get banned in the process? And sure, thousands people just lie that they didn't use macros, even after they have no appeal chance. Sure. :roll:

 

 

 

What happened to freedom of the innocent being more important than the punishment of the guilty?

[Omali]

 

He's unbanned, that means Jagex admitted to making a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Or it means Jagex gave him another chance. I know you cant provide information from that forum here, but are there exact quotes from Jagex stating that it was a mistake and Lucipher didnt macro in any way? Have you read a conversation between him and a Jagex mod? It helps that he knows Mod Andrew personally, too.

 

 

 

Like I said, he got banned for either macro'ing, or playing too much (a la Zezima a while back). He wasnt banned for mousekeys. My friends and myself use them and one has used them extensively for a long time cutting teaks to 25m+ exp in woodcutting. So if he is completely innocent and it is the latter reason, then I think that is the biggest wake up call one needs to realise life doesnt revolve around Runescape.

 

 

 

Or his account could've been locked for security reasons, or it could've been tied to the server issues. There's a number of reasons a person wouldn't appear on the hiscores for a day.

[X3EN]

That stuff about a true macroer caught alching was the point I wanted (he was caught because of an absolute lack of randomness in his actions). Now look:

 

 

 

You position your mouse on the alch spell icon, and make sure that the item is directly "below" the icon in inventory. You unplug the mouse (because optical ones tend to sometimes start moving up), and just repeatedly keep pressing key 5. Try alching 3k-10k items (absolutely irrelevant if you alch 500-2k, then plug the mouse and re-buy) that way. I'm CERTAIN you will get banned.

 

 

 

Why am I so certain?

 

Let's make a simple application. Use SecureRandom to generate a seed for a RNG (to have some more randomness), and java.awt.Robot to:

 

1) Push the lmb

 

2) Wait some time (ORHLI)* + random delay equal to ~0-0.6x the * - "original reasonable human-like interval"

 

3) Release the lmb

 

4) ?Wait again?

 

 

 

1. If they don't ban mousekeys, they fail at detecting such simple macros;

 

2. If they ban such macros, they ban everyone (or the majority) of mousekey users.

 

 

 

So am I wrong?

 

 

 

P. S. The 0-0.6x coef might be wrong, never tried this, a research should be made first to ensure as much human-[using mousekeys]-like interaction as possible.

 

 

 

P. P. S. The bs about most macroers using edited clients was true in RSC, but most macroers in RS2 use the official one.

[blacksimon]

Needless to say, this is as much as a bluff as their prior macro detection updates.

 

 

 

The ID change load of BS had very little effect, as the only major IDs changed were bankers and tabs. And most decent scripts didn't use IDs to bank, but actually red the text 'Banker' Anyways. Most bots were down due to the invy locations, which caused random clicking in a certain area of the RS screen. It took roughly 40 minutes to update all bots with new inventory, spells, etc. And took most good scripters under an hour to update their scripts to bank.

 

 

 

 

 

It took Jagex, what? A month to accumulate names of certain macroers, hoard them. And then unleash them on one day. There was no updated change in macro detection whatsoever.

 

 

 

Jagex has always used (only what people assume) A simple bit of data sent every X clicks, lets just say 500. These are proccessed to ensure that no impossible clicking has been done, aka mouse teleporting from one part of the screen to another. Obviously randoms play the largest role, as most bots get stuck in randoms for hours due to lousy upkeep on the scripters side for antirandoms. They possibly may use a simple java command called getactivewindow, but i highly doubt they do, as many browsers exist, and being banned for playing rs outside of a mainstream client is something I would take right to jagex's headquarters, not with a lawsuit, but with a baseball bat.

 

 

 

20% of the bot population may have been downed. but these were mostly throwaway accounts, level 3s with no purpose but buying junk from mains, this makes no difference to anyone at all except people that buy their materials from the GE. Bots are disposable, and anyone stupid enough to bot on their main deserves a ban.

 

 

 

Jagex is doing nothing but hurting their honest players, lieing to our faces and getting away with it.

 

I know of at least 20 people wrongly banned because of mousekeys, while jagex stated that EVERY abuse report was looked at by hand... MY [wagon].

 

 

 

Jagex, stop the lies, perhaps you wouldn't anger the botters, which would do nothing more than make 20 more throwaway accounts just to piss you off.

[DoTa]

i personally do not agree with the 'no appeals' part of thing. seeing as they have banned two of my friends already for botting (although they wasnt) simply because they only had one skill raised. one of the two's botting offence went to 'deffered' and the other was unnable to appeal it, and he had 98 cooking. i have also been mistakenly been reported for botting, when i afk skills such as fishing and woodcutting. although these are unlikely to go through, if one succesfull report goes through (even if im legitemately playing) i wont even have a chance to prove i wasnt botting.

[Iamdan]

 

The ID change load of BS had very little effect, as the only major IDs changed were bankers and tabs. And most decent scripts didn't use IDs to bank, but actually red the text 'Banker'

 

 

 

Only 1 macro does, the rest use ID's, and some use the text to double check. Changing the banks never did do anything though.

 

 

P. P. S. The bs about most macroers using edited clients was true in RSC, but most macroers in RS2 use the official one.

 

 

Also, it is not as easy as detecting if the RS client is modified - because in a lot[/b] of cases the client IS NOT modified.

 

 

 

Wrong. The 2 main macros (that are used by like 90% of the cheaters at the moment) use edited clients. A lot of the users seem to think they aren't edited though. There is only 1 public one that clicks colours, but it isn't very popular because it's not as idiot proof.

 

 

 

They aren't deob bots like in rsc, but they are still edited.

[glasscube]

I only know of one very very mainstream bot, and another bot that will be getting much more popular. One of those uses a modified client, and the other uses a technique called reflection. You can not detect reflection, since all it does is read data at run time... You can only detect what they do after reading the information (clicking, mouse movements, etc).

[IzzetGuildmage]

IBot, NeXus and RSBot all use BCEL and users will be banned.

 

 

 

SCAR says it doesn't use BCEL but I doubt that.

 

 

 

A-R-Y-A-N died long ago (why is this censored?).

 

 

 

The next generation bot, RID, is according to its makers undetectable. It is however also very expensive.

 

 

 

I know these facts from browsing random forums. I have never used a bot myself.

[NuckingFuts]

I was temp banned before for constantly clicking with my mouse pad. I just left the cursor over the spell and kept on clicking the left mouse button on my laptop. Same thing happened to my friend.

 

 

 

Detection systems that are left to run on their own fail IMO. They should include user interaction into it. For example, the detection system picks up User A. Now, go send a mod to talk with this player. Fairly simple, wouldn't take long, and it can help that little bit more in preventing innocent people from getting banned.

 

 

 

Hell, why not make it easy for the person on the job. Make the detection system output the names of suspected players into a list, which then randomly goes out to the moderators. When one is down, they can go check on the next one.

 

 

 

It just completely sucks for that person that was falsely accused, and then not given the chance to appeal it. Even I tried reasoning with them (in the two appeals I had for it) And as expected was returned with an automated message saying "thanks for your concern about your account, but no thanks. We have proof, now GTFO"

 

Funny thing is, they don't show this "proof".

[SwreeTak]

Good work Jagex. Very nice to see that you take this problem seriously!

[Sir_Squab]

Funny thing is, I haven't seen any proof of anything on this forum. Just heresay and the occasional screenshot which could have easily been edited.

 

 

 

I think I'm going to quit this thread. No matter how many times I say it, people just keep ignoring it. You have NO SOLID EVIDENCE of innocent people being banned for macroing. You have nothing but heresay, nothing but words from the mouths of the accused, who will always deny their involvement to the very end. Have fun with your fruitless discussion.

 

 

 

Almost everyone here seems to have the idea that either:

 

 

 

this is a good update, getting rid of more bots, go jagex, oh and yes they do know what they're doing, they're smart

 

 

 

OR

 

 

 

stop it with the propaganda jagex, your lying to us, and your falsely banning people, specifically people who use mousepads

 

 

 

Life is never that black and white. The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle.

[X3EN]

I've given an example stating how to get banned by using mousekeys, even though you would be constantly showing off you're a human by re-buying/perhaps withdrawing/depositing alchable stuff. Try it, and you will get proof that noone gives a [bleep] cares about legitimate playing. They don't like the point that you play too much and do alching for too long, so they ban you just in case (because you were using the most efficient method instead of acting like a noob using the mouse, while all you need to do is continously click) (before this announcement news item that would be a temp 10 day ban and you would still have been in green zone).

 

 

 

Go on, try if you dare.

[valdentia]

Wonder why they have not banned the Auto-typers. Auto-type programs are always 3rd-party software. Macros are also 3rd party software to do a repeated action and hence auto-typers should be in the same scope.

 

 

 

The following is argument why jagex is not following up on its zero-tolerance policy on macros.

 

Rule on Macros

 

You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games. This includes automation tools, macros, bots, or auto-typers. <-- quoted from the Runescape manual

 

 

 

1. Jagex says not to use a auto-typer. pretty self explanatory

 

 

 

2. "USE SOFTWARE TO GAIN AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE". People who are using a automated talker has many advantages over a average runescaper. First of all person A who spams using a auto typer "Selling item X for X amount" way more times than a average runescaper who spams the same saying ,Person A is more likely to get noticed and another person will buy from person A because he will notice the saying being spammed in the chat. This causes the average runescaper to waste more time trying to sell their products. JAGEX banned other macro machines because the macroers wasted less time than average runescaper.

 

 

 

If jagex wants to actually have a Zero tolerance policy they should actually look into this problem. Other wise they are pretty much contradicting themselves on what it says in the game manual and on the news post.

 

 

 

The most acceptable solution would be a news post warning that auto typing from now on will result in a increase in blackmarks.

[X3EN]

Even though the most autotalkers (except specially crafted ones) are easy to detect, only an extremely little part of them receive punishment. And I agree with everything you are saying, auto-talkers should not be tolerated, as stated in the rules.

[Calm Koala]

I just think this is a crap load of talk by Jagex atm

 

 

 

They might have a flagged char list they got over the the last months and just banned them. And them claim they have a new system. But still i see allot of macroers that i've seen for 3-4 weeks in a row now.

[3hitm4g3u]

This is mostly BS tbh.

 

 

 

If their macro detection was so powerful we'd have no need for random events.

[-----]

This is mostly BS tbh.

 

 

 

If their macro detection was so powerful we'd have no need for random events.

 

But, if there were no random events, there would be WAY too many pissed people because they couldn't get costumes, emotes, etc. And anyways, there are always new macros being made, so when that happens and they don't detect it they need to cover that with randoms.