11th June 2009 - Macro-detection systems update

[Returned3]

I'm more afraid of when an innocent account suffers.

 

 

 

I know it's near impossible, but should it happen that user will not be able to do anything, can't appeal, nothing.

[n64jive]

Anybody believing their claim is more foolish than I imagined..

 

 

 

Similar to the inability of virus scanners to detect all virusses it is impossible to detect all macroers.. Such a system would solve the halting problem, something which is proven in 1936 to be unsolvable already!

 

 

 

quote from

 

Adleman proved: If an algorithm exists that can prove the presence of viruses in general case than exists an algorithm that solves the halting problem (Reductio ad absurdum - proof by contradiction).

 

 

 

Now since no one can ever be sure (halting problem is unsolvable for both the human as well as computers) if another person is using a bot, banning is completely wrong - explain to me, why should someone be banned if they are innocent..

 

 

 

OW AND STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW JAGEX CAN REMOVE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION LIKE THEY WANT: they can't, it's completely ilegal to do unless given a refund or a proof in advance. (meaning, you shouldn't have to ask for proof).. - Problem is, going to court is more expensive these days than a year's subscription, and jagex knows that, so they know they can just ban anyone cause nobody would ever go to the court for this.

 

 

 

Going to court is expensive. But going to your bank and telling them their is fraudulent activity on your account isn't. As long as you can back up that you didn't recieve the service you paid for, you will most likely recieve your funds, and your bank will send a big, bad credit union after Jagex. And it's not worth Jagex's time to fight with the union over a $6-$100 subscription.

[haggisoflife]

 

scientists create a device that can 'scan' a person, which with 99% accuracy, can determine if the person is a terrorist. the device also confirms 99% of innocent people as innocent, mis-identifying the other 1% as terrorists. the government decides to use the device to scan all terminals of major transportation, and begins jailing anyone who the device detects as a terrorist.

 

 

 

My understanding of it, from all the Mod posts and talking to one in game a while back, was that they use the scanner to check for suspects and then a mod checks them out to see if they actually were doing anything wrong. So, to use your example, I belive it's a case of 'scan, investigate, evaluate, then jail if proof found' rather than 'scan & can if machine says 'yes''.

[Racheya]

Anybody believing their claim is more foolish than I imagined..

 

 

 

Similar to the inability of virus scanners to detect all virusses it is impossible to detect all macroers.. Such a system would solve the halting problem, something which is proven in 1936 to be unsolvable already!

 

 

 

quote from

 

Adleman proved: If an algorithm exists that can prove the presence of viruses in general case than exists an algorithm that solves the halting problem (Reductio ad absurdum - proof by contradiction).

 

 

 

Now since no one can ever be sure (halting problem is unsolvable for both the human as well as computers) if another person is using a bot, banning is completely wrong - explain to me, why should someone be banned if they are innocent..

 

 

 

OW AND STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW JAGEX CAN REMOVE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION LIKE THEY WANT: they can't, it's completely ilegal to do unless given a refund or a proof in advance. (meaning, you shouldn't have to ask for proof).. - Problem is, going to court is more expensive these days than a year's subscription, and jagex knows that, so they know they can just ban anyone cause nobody would ever go to the court for this.

 

Jagex own our accounts, we're paying to rent them in a way.

 

 

 

They can do WHATEVER they want with them and we can't complain. We agreed in the terms and conditions.

 

 

 

People should chill out over this. If one or two people get caught and they're innocent it doesn't matter too much tbh. Not to you at least (unless it IS you).

 

 

 

Jagex aren't lying either...

[perfetc]

I believe this happened yesterday too :

 

 

 

 

That made my day :lol: I hope they ban all auto typers as well... :shame:

 

 

 

Also, they don't catch a bot by how repetetive its behaviour is, they catch it simply because they can DETECT the program running. :thumbup:

 

 

 

Theres something I dont understand about this pic: why did the person screenie his own ban and post it on a forum, I know its that person cos the white square in the middle of the mini map is were that player is stood.

 

 

 

Just seems like a stupid thing to do, then again he was botting so hes probably not the brighest bulb in the box. :lol:

[Karvinen]

For people who think Jagex can ban member accounts for any reason without refunding the payment because you have agreed to the terms and conditions.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Ter ... tions_1999

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Con ... s_Act_1977

 

 

 

Any member who thinks he has been banned for no reason should contact the consumer protection authorities or police. Manufacturer's guarantee is required by the laws and it cannot be excluded by terms and conditions.

[jimmy_jim]

There's sufficient ways to contact JaGEX without having to take anyone to court. ;)

[Eyebeam]

lan = lucipher6

 

Allar=assiwat

 

[01] <^Tim> Ian, did you just play without talking, and they get you banned for autoing?

 

[01] <@Allar> I don't react to 'talk to me or I will report you for macroing', he said it's more likely to be mousekey superheating

 

[01]<%lan> No, it's that mousekeys aren't always taken as non-macro

 

[01]<%lan> Apparently multiple people have been banned for mousekeys

 

[01] <@Allar> They claim mistakes don't happen yet it's clear it has happened to even other top players since they've lifted bans quickly, not to mention 100% accuracy is a basic impossibility

 

[01] <%lan> Have a jmod on it, only thing is she's next in on tuesday.

 

 

 

Btw, he got to appeal.. (probably due to his mod status).

[pulli23]

Anybody believing their claim is more foolish than I imagined..

 

 

 

Similar to the inability of virus scanners to detect all virusses it is impossible to detect all macroers.. Such a system would solve the halting problem, something which is proven in 1936 to be unsolvable already!

 

 

 

quote from

 

Adleman proved: If an algorithm exists that can prove the presence of viruses in general case than exists an algorithm that solves the halting problem (Reductio ad absurdum - proof by contradiction).

 

 

 

Now since no one can ever be sure (halting problem is unsolvable for both the human as well as computers) if another person is using a bot, banning is completely wrong - explain to me, why should someone be banned if they are innocent..

 

 

 

OW AND STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW JAGEX CAN REMOVE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION LIKE THEY WANT: they can't, it's completely ilegal to do unless given a refund or a proof in advance. (meaning, you shouldn't have to ask for proof).. - Problem is, going to court is more expensive these days than a year's subscription, and jagex knows that, so they know they can just ban anyone cause nobody would ever go to the court for this.

 

Jagex own our accounts, we're paying to rent them in a way.

 

 

 

They can do WHATEVER they want with them and we can't complain. We agreed in the terms and conditions.

 

 

 

People should chill out over this. If one or two people get caught and they're innocent it doesn't matter too much tbh. Not to you at least (unless it IS you).

 

 

 

Jagex aren't lying either...

 

 

 

Jagex doesn't own it indeed: but even if they do, that doesn't matter: I paid for the usage of the account: and if jagex thinks I'm not doing the things I should be doing with it it's in their full right indeed to take the account back. - HOWEVER it is in my right as customer to get my money back for receiving a bad service - what I do doesn't matter at all (as long as it's not illegal to LAW).. Similar to those house/car/book-rent organizations: they can't just take the rented thing back, even if you doesn't follow their specific rules. They can "initiate a take-back process", however this ALWAYS includes giving back the extra money.

[Racheya]

Anybody believing their claim is more foolish than I imagined..

 

 

 

Similar to the inability of virus scanners to detect all virusses it is impossible to detect all macroers.. Such a system would solve the halting problem, something which is proven in 1936 to be unsolvable already!

 

 

 

quote from

 

Adleman proved: If an algorithm exists that can prove the presence of viruses in general case than exists an algorithm that solves the halting problem (Reductio ad absurdum - proof by contradiction).

 

 

 

Now since no one can ever be sure (halting problem is unsolvable for both the human as well as computers) if another person is using a bot, banning is completely wrong - explain to me, why should someone be banned if they are innocent..

 

 

 

OW AND STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW JAGEX CAN REMOVE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION LIKE THEY WANT: they can't, it's completely ilegal to do unless given a refund or a proof in advance. (meaning, you shouldn't have to ask for proof).. - Problem is, going to court is more expensive these days than a year's subscription, and jagex knows that, so they know they can just ban anyone cause nobody would ever go to the court for this.

 

Jagex own our accounts, we're paying to rent them in a way.

 

 

 

They can do WHATEVER they want with them and we can't complain. We agreed in the terms and conditions.

 

 

 

People should chill out over this. If one or two people get caught and they're innocent it doesn't matter too much tbh. Not to you at least (unless it IS you).

 

 

 

Jagex aren't lying either...

 

 

 

Jagex doesn't own it indeed: but even if they do, that doesn't matter: I paid for the usage of the account: and if jagex thinks I'm not doing the things I should be doing with it it's in their full right indeed to take the account back. - HOWEVER it is in my right as customer to get my money back for receiving a bad service - what I do doesn't matter at all (as long as it's not illegal to LAW).. Similar to those house/car/book-rent organizations: they can't just take the rented thing back, even if you doesn't follow their specific rules. They can "initiate a take-back process", however this ALWAYS includes giving back the extra money.

 

Jagex DO own your account and can do as they wish with it. However I do have to agree that they should give money back for unfinished memberships, it doesn't seem fair otherwise. =/

[Bauke]

lan = lucipher6

 

Allar=assiwat

 

[01] <^Tim> Ian, did you just play without talking, and they get you banned for autoing?

 

[01] <@Allar> I don't react to 'talk to me or I will report you for macroing', he said it's more likely to be mousekey superheating

 

[01]<%lan> No, it's that mousekeys aren't always taken as non-macro

 

[01]<%lan> Apparently multiple people have been banned for mousekeys

 

[01] <@Allar> They claim mistakes don't happen yet it's clear it has happened to even other top players since they've lifted bans quickly, not to mention 100% accuracy is a basic impossibility

 

[01] <%lan> Have a jmod on it, only thing is she's next in on tuesday.

 

 

 

Btw, he got to appeal.. (probably due to his mod status).

 

I think it's because Aasiwat posted in the high level forum on the RSOF about lucipher6's ban. J mods visit there and occasionally pick up stuff like that.

[aure22]

After elimination of RWT and chinese bots some peoples did start macroing with their own main accounts. How silly....

 

 

 

Play fair.

[Glockslinger]

Sweet. The image of the guy getting banned is friggin awesome. Sucks to be him :twisted:. I want to be a moderator so bad. LOL. I hate cheaters. I work hard for my skills and to see someone get off easy really burns me up. Way to go Jagex! :thumbup:

[purewcnub]

"It could reach a point where macro software becomes undetectable." -Andrew Gower

 

 

 

Seems to prove that it is a bluff. Still doesn't mean that you should use macroes.

 

 

 

Hmm.. If a ton of bots get banned, can't wait to to see the price of yew logs.

 

 

 

Jagex makes plenty of mistakes, just don't play in fear if you do nothing wrong. Jagex will most likely resolve the problem. Even though a Yard Sale has better customer service than Jagex..

[Ravenkana]

Ah, but you assume that JaGEx relies purely on their computer's to make that judgement, when it has already been stated in this thread that this is not true. Sure, lets assume that the computer software got it wrong, and flagged an innocent. That's all it has done though, flagged it. JaGEx have been quoted saying that after their system flags a person, a HUMAN checks each one personally, to ensure that the computer got it right. Even then, if ALL this fails, a person wrongfully accused has not had all of their avenues of contact with JaGEx removed, just the easiest ones. Imagine, if you will, a hypothetical situation. 10,000 macroers, botters, autoers, whatever, are banned. If half of these people appeal, JaGEx has 5,000 appeals to read from people who know that they have committed a crime and haven't got away with it, yet try their luck anyway. This is valuable time JaGEx staff don't have.if out of 10,000 bans, there was 1 wrongfully accused, I guarantee you they would find a way to contact JaGEx.

 

 

 

While we talk philosophy, all of this has been mentioned already in this thread, which isn't long, so I assume you've read it. You, then, are committing one of the worst crimes in philosophy: you ignore perfectly valid arguments simply because they disagree with your own.

Ah, so you say Jagex EMPLOYEES are infallible then? And if you believe that they can check every single case with a human, with their woefully outnumbered team, then I've got a bridge in San Fransisco I'd like to sell you.

[Wachtwoord]

lan = lucipher6

 

Allar=assiwat

 

[01] <^Tim> Ian, did you just play without talking, and they get you banned for autoing?

 

[01] <@Allar> I don't react to 'talk to me or I will report you for macroing', he said it's more likely to be mousekey superheating

 

[01]<%lan> No, it's that mousekeys aren't always taken as non-macro

 

[01]<%lan> Apparently multiple people have been banned for mousekeys

 

[01] <@Allar> They claim mistakes don't happen yet it's clear it has happened to even other top players since they've lifted bans quickly, not to mention 100% accuracy is a basic impossibility

 

[01] <%lan> Have a jmod on it, only thing is she's next in on tuesday.

 

 

 

Btw, he got to appeal.. (probably due to his mod status).

 

I think it's because Aasiwat posted in the high level forum on the RSOF about lucipher6's ban. J mods visit there and occasionally pick up stuff like that.

 

The thing that bothers me most is he has probably gotten a second change because of his fame. What about all the other unnecessary bans who go unnoticed to the public? Will they get a change to appeal?

[Gribbzldinho]

 

The thing that bothers me most is he has probably gotten a second change because of his fame. What about all the other unnecessary bans who go unnoticed to the public? Will they get a change to appeal?

 

 

 

Yes, exactly how I feel. If he is being honest and didnt macro, then great and good on him. However, what about those people who arent so fortunate to have better contact with Jagex and have no appeal?

[n64jive]

Hopefully he didn't actually macro so he can be the poster child. Prove to Jagex that no appeal is utterly ridiculous.

[Bauke]

lan = lucipher6

 

Allar=assiwat

 

[01] <^Tim> Ian, did you just play without talking, and they get you banned for autoing?

 

[01] <@Allar> I don't react to 'talk to me or I will report you for macroing', he said it's more likely to be mousekey superheating

 

[01]<%lan> No, it's that mousekeys aren't always taken as non-macro

 

[01]<%lan> Apparently multiple people have been banned for mousekeys

 

[01] <@Allar> They claim mistakes don't happen yet it's clear it has happened to even other top players since they've lifted bans quickly, not to mention 100% accuracy is a basic impossibility

 

[01] <%lan> Have a jmod on it, only thing is she's next in on tuesday.

 

 

 

Btw, he got to appeal.. (probably due to his mod status).

 

I think it's because Aasiwat posted in the high level forum on the RSOF about lucipher6's ban. J mods visit there and occasionally pick up stuff like that.

 

The thing that bothers me most is he has probably gotten a second change because of his fame. What about all the other unnecessary bans who go unnoticed to the public? Will they get a change to appeal?

 

Well, people that can access the high level forum have a better chance due to Jagex paying quite a lot of attention to that forum. You can call it unfair (it is), but I'd say he's just lucky to have access there.

[totalpwnage]

Remember when monsters weren't retaliating?

 

 

 

That was a macro-detection update, and a LOT of people got caught because of it -- Everyone that used a certain macroing program got caught because that program actually took values directly from the game itself (which is illegal of course for third-party programs), and jagex changed all those numbers and apparently made the buttons a little larger or something.

 

 

 

Also, they put the old ID numbers or something on random moving objects that fly around RS and make the bot REALLY easily detectable. So yeah, a lot of people got caught, and already people have been banned.

 

 

 

I like the update.

[Toad]

Well lucipher got unbanned so he is lucky shame you have to have 99 in all skills to actually stand a chance of an appeal

[Ravenkana]

Remember when monsters weren't retaliating?

 

 

 

That was a macro-detection update, and a LOT of people got caught because of it -- Everyone that used a certain macroing program got caught because that program actually took values directly from the game itself (which is illegal of course for third-party programs), and jagex changed all those numbers and apparently made the buttons a little larger or something.

 

 

 

Also, they put the old ID numbers or something on random moving objects that fly around RS and make the bot REALLY easily detectable. So yeah, a lot of people got caught, and already people have been banned.

 

 

 

I like the update.

True. But, like the cockroach, they will adapt to this new "poison" and we'll be right back to square one. Jagex can never truly stop Macros, but they can slow them by making the current programs worthless causing them to create a new batch.

 

 

 

WHICH THEY WILL.

[Clay_More12]

Lets just say he is back?

 

 

 

[Ravenkana]

Lets just say he is back?

 

 

 

You know, it occurs to me that it is a brave, or extraordinarily atheist, man or boy who makes his screen name a reference to the Morning Star.

 

 

 

In any case, either Jagex's whole we're getting tougher on macros was a bluff, or he was innocent.

[Bauke]

3 Lucipher6 2,376 1,257,839,542

 

From the hiscores. So yes, he's back. What did we learn? Luckily one of the best Runescape players didn't lower himself to macroing, and Jagex' macro detecting system is NOT bullet proof. Although the latter was already known, here is the proof.