200M in all Skills

[Jebrim]

To clarify further, the 2nd video I posted(the separate Cutting and Eating as 2 steps), was made by dukky(the original finder that eating = more fishing xp/hr) as a copy and better version of the method FiremakePro had developed(which dukky links to). FiremakePro thought out the method for doing it without the extra cost and without having to bank. After I viewed both of their vids, I did some testing around with Fishing until I came up with my own method and then asked both of them and a couple others to test it out. FiremakePro managed to do it and actually got far better than I had expected(I was expecting a fish per 4 ticks, not 3). I asked him to do a longer video, but it was never done. That's why this method and Fishing Xp/hr in general has remained rather not well known, because only a few people even know of it or understand the concepts behind it. Basically you have to eat right before you expect the fish to appear, cut it immediately after it appears, and then immediately click the fishing spot. It's rather tricky to do and I'm not even sure if it's possible to get good Xp/hr with this method below 90 Fishing since you have to be able to predict the fish to come rather often.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Jebrim

[Thai_tong]

Wow 35 people viewing this

[PereGrin]

How fast would the rc xp be if you were just constantly trading with people for essence? Arib mentioned a company which would mean you have runners bringing essence only for you. Although someone did make a good point that it would cost 30B

If you got runners bringing you ess, I think it would be around ~80-90k/h. I am not sure about how much it would cost/profit. I would assume that zmi at 99 rc would yield maybe 1.5-2x.

 

I am not too sure about the distribution of runes you get, but say you traded all the runes you kept the death, blood, and soul runes, and you traded the runner 24 noted ess + the rest of the runes. They would get all the chaos, cosmic, nature, astral, and the rest as profit, and break even on the rest as they would need to run 24 ess to you each time. Then, maybe ever few hours, you head to the bank to grab some cash, and pay your runners like ~1mil for 3 hours running or something. That would be about on par with other lower level moneymakers such as cave slime and aviansies.

 

I think it would be come to tedious trading all of the runes. I think if you were to step up a "company" like Larryr did so that runners were waiting in a line to trade you ess, and you only trade 13? ess for the (x)k gp, this would end up being faster because it would save you the effort of trading all of those runes. However, I could see trading each runner the teleport runes to be beneficial because then they wouldn't have to run back to the bank. Maybe even trading them 25? fire runes so they wont have to pay to open their bank.

I believe it might be faster to offer all runes because you would have to manually type in the number of fire runes, click twice on your laws and astrals, and then put up the correct amount of cash and pure ess. I do not know if trading has an Offer-X history option similar to banking does. Even if it did, you would still only be able to use it for either the cash or the fire runes. I feel that the time added doing these added actions could take longer then just offering nearly all your runes. You can use mousekeys to offer runes same as you use mousekeys to drop items.

 

Also, after having thought about it, you could prevent banking for much longer by paying your runners in pure ess each trade. Simply give them ~10k body runes to use for banking purposes and each trade put up 34 pure ess with your extra runes. This would prevent having to pay them in cash, and they would profit ~1.3k per run in ess + the additional runes you are giving them.

 

It is my gut instinct that the extra 10 essence this would get you (24 compared to 14, if you pay them with ess and give them tons of banking runes up front) would more then make up for the potentially longer trade time. I don't really feel like crunching the numbers right now, I just got out of my last class for the week (Diff. Eq.) and I am now going to crash on my bed till dinner time.

 

If you are paying them with cash and they can be trusted or know you can be trusted then definitely pay in lump sums of cash. It is far more efficient the putting cash in every trade window, and nets you another inventory slot besides.

[yoooooooooooooooooooo]

There's no way someone could maintain that speed for any considerable amount of time

[Aribiterspar]

EDIT: Arib you said that you wouldn't use that xp rate since it could be a bug. So if you think of this proof for your own training then fishing is 60k/hr

 

 

Ok here's my proof that it is better to use lamps on fishing not agil.

 

First. Rather than comparing if it is better to use 48029xp on fishing or not it is easier if I see if it is better to use 60k on fishing. I will also leave everything in fraction form until the end because the numbers are small and rounding decimals might lose important accuracy.

 

Agility

60k agility xp saves 60/72 hours saved

 

Fishing

60k fishing xp saves 60/60= 1 hour saved

 

60k fishing xp from effigies means that 60/11k more agility and strength xp need to be gotten

 

60k/11 more agility xp would take (60/11)x(1/72) hours extra

 

60k/11 more strength xp would take (60/11)x(1/80) hours extra

 

1 effiigy is dropped every 65 mins so 60/65 effigies are gotten per hour.

 

(60/11)x(1/72)x(60/65) more effigies are gotten. Call this number P

 

From opening the effigy 11.25k is gained in each opening skill.

To find the time saved in the opening skills we can multiply the xp gotten from opening the effigies by the sum of their xp rates.

In the order (agility, fishing, runecraft, mining, thieving, hunter, woodcutting, firemaking)

(1/72+ 1/60+ 1/65+ 1/80+ 1/300 + 1/245+ 1/100+ 1/473) call this number R

 

Px 11.25x R hours saved

 

Now the extra xp gotten from the number of effigies P using the Lamps on fishing is:

Px 48.029

so, (Px 48.029)/60 hours of fishing saved

 

 

So the total amount of time saved by getting a free 60k fishing xp is:

1- (60/11)x(1/72)- (60/11)x(1/80)+ Px 11.25x R+ (Px 48.029)/60= 0.9616 Hours

And the total agility time saved is 60/72= 0.8333 Hours

 

I notice Xensure is reading this, I wonder what he thinks of it :thumbsup:

 

 

Sorry never told u I abondoned that worry I consider it legit now and yeah jebrims method def be good

[Thai_tong]

Sorry never told u I abondoned that worry I consider it legit now and yeah jebrims method def be good

Ok is it because people haven't been banned yet that makes you think it is legit?

 

 

 

I believe it might be faster to offer all runes because you would have to manually type in the number of fire runes, click twice on your laws and astrals, and then put up the correct amount of cash and pure ess. I do not know if trading has an Offer-X history option similar to banking does. Even if it did, you would still only be able to use it for either the cash or the fire runes. I feel that the time added doing these added actions could take longer then just offering nearly all your runes. You can use mousekeys to offer runes same as you use mousekeys to drop items.

 

Also, after having thought about it, you could prevent banking for much longer by paying your runners in pure ess each trade. Simply give them ~10k body runes to use for banking purposes and each trade put up 34 pure ess with your extra runes. This would prevent having to pay them in cash, and they would profit ~1.3k per run in ess + the additional runes you are giving them.

 

It is my gut instinct that the extra 10 essence this would get you (24 compared to 14, if you pay them with ess and give them tons of banking runes up front) would more then make up for the potentially longer trade time. I don't really feel like crunching the numbers right now, I just got out of my last class for the week (Diff. Eq.) and I am now going to crash on my bed till dinner time.

 

If you are paying them with cash and they can be trusted or know you can be trusted then definitely pay in lump sums of cash. It is far more efficient the putting cash in every trade window, and nets you another inventory slot besides.

Paying them in p ess would be a good idea because of the extra inv space but 1.3k/trip would only be 41k/hr or even 31k/hr for bad runners so you would have to give them a lot of p ess or some cash hourly.

[Xensure]

[spoiler=Proof]

Ok here's my proof that it is better to use lamps on fishing not agil.

 

First. Rather than comparing if it is better to use 48029xp on fishing or not it is easier if I see if it is better to use 60k on fishing. I will also leave everything in fraction form until the end because the numbers are small and rounding decimals might lose important accuracy.

 

Agility

60k agility xp saves 60/72 hours saved

 

Fishing

60k fishing xp saves 60/60= 1 hour saved

 

60k fishing xp from effigies means that 60/11k more agility and strength xp need to be gotten

 

60k/11 more agility xp would take (60/11)x(1/72) hours extra

 

60k/11 more strength xp would take (60/11)x(1/80) hours extra

 

1 effiigy is dropped every 65 mins so 60/65 effigies are gotten per hour.

 

(60/11)x(1/72)x(60/65) more effigies are gotten. Call this number P

 

From opening the effigy 11.25k is gained in each opening skill.

To find the time saved in the opening skills we can multiply the xp gotten from opening the effigies by the sum of their xp rates.

In the order (agility, fishing, runecraft, mining, thieving, hunter, woodcutting, firemaking)

(1/72+ 1/60+ 1/65+ 1/80+ 1/300 + 1/245+ 1/100+ 1/473) call this number R

 

Px 11.25x R hours saved

 

Now the extra xp gotten from the number of effigies P using the Lamps on fishing is:

Px 48.029

so, (Px 48.029)/60 hours of fishing saved

 

 

So the total amount of time saved by getting a free 60k fishing xp is:

1- (60/11)x(1/72)- (60/11)x(1/80)+ Px 11.25x R+ (Px 48.029)/60= 0.9616 Hours

And the total agility time saved is 60/72= 0.8333 Hours

 

 

I notice Xensure is reading this, I wonder what he thinks of it :thumbsup:

 

First off

"(60/11)x(1/72)x(60/65) more effigies are gotten. Call this number P"

 

That is wrong^

 

(60k/11)/80k*.9231 = P

 

Since fishing is less xp/h than agility you would rather do more agility and less fishing. But fishing also has residual xp which would make you think to do more fishing than agility, but since doing less fishing results in more effigies then this proof seems to make sense. Except I see one thing that I think is wrong. Since you are getting more effigies and using fishing to investigate those effigies this in turn results in less str and agil xp. And then this means you will get more effigies... etc. This leads in an infinite loop saying that you should do cave crawlers all the way to 200m fishing. This was the same mistake that was in my math that you pointed out.

 

1 hour at cave crawlers before maxing melee, with agility are wroth: 60+60*[.9231*11.250*(1/72+ 1/60+ 1/65+ 1/80+ 1/300 + 1/245+ 1/100+ 1/473)]+60*[.9231*48.029/72] = 60+48.582+39.946 = 145.528 minutes of skilling.

 

1 hour at cave crawlers after maxing melee, with effigies on agility 60*[.9231*11.250*(1/72+ 1/60+ 1/65+ 1/80+ 1/300 + 1/245+ 1/100+ 1/473)]+60*[.9231*48.029/72] = 85.528 minutes of skilling, So even if you are getting no combat xp what so ever, every hour spent at cave crawlers is still worth 85.528 minutes of skilling.

 

at 60k/h 1 hour of fishing is worth: 60+60*[(60k/11)/72k]+60*[(60k/11)/80k] = 60+4.545+4.091 = 68.636 minutes of total skilling (This ignores the strength infinite loop and potential mage xp)

 

1 hour of mining is worth: 60+60*[((80k/65)*56.2)/214k]+60*[((80k/65)*53)/400k] = 60+19.393+9.785 = 89.178 minutes of skilling

**note** I used the 214k/h smithing from Thai's thread, but I am sure that is wrong because Zarfot posted an addy plate vid that gets like 230k with out a yak and before the varroc armor update: Video I also used 400k for barraging at Ape Atoll. I made that number up, but unless it extremely off then it shouldn't effect much.

 

1 hour of Woodcutting is worth: 60+60*[((100k/87.125)/3)*110.25)/473k] = 60+5.351 = 65.351 minutes of skilling (this ignores fletching because I don't know what max fletching xp/h is, but if you can get double your wcing xp in fletching xp and if max fletch is around 500k/h then this would be around 90 minutes of skilling and potential mage xp)

 

1 hour of RC, Agility, Fming, Thieving, and Hunter are all worth 60 minutes of skilling since they don't provide any residual xp.

**note** the Farming and herb xp from hunter are negligible since both skills are so fast.

 

Basically what this is suggesting is that in order for a skill to be worth doing over cave crawler effigies it either (A) must provide more than 85.582 minutes of skilling through residual xp. Or (B) must have an xp/h (x) such that it satisfies the inequality below:

 

48.582+60*[.9231*48.029/x] < 60

 

x > 233.85 or in layman's terms a skill must be over 233k xp/h for it to be worth doing over cave crawlers.

 

So according to this you should do cave crawlers even after maxing melee until 200m slayer, RC, Agility, and Fishing. Now I think I know why Zarfot quit like two weeks after his cave crawler vid.

[Jebrim]

I thought I just proved Fishing was well more than Agility Xp/hr....

 

@yooooooo

It's not that difficult to pay attention while fishing. Afking is never good Xp/hr, in any skill.

[PereGrin]

So according to this you should do cave crawlers even after maxing melee until 200m slayer, RC, Agility, and Fishing. Now I think I know why Zarfot quit like two weeks after his cave crawler vid.

No kidding. I would quit too if it looked like I would be spending the entire rest of my existence at cave crawlers. Not to mention the money it would cost. :blink:

 

Which is a good point. How long would it take to make that cash? Merchanting is going to get royally messed up very soon.

[Thai_tong]

First off

"(60/11)x(1/72)x(60/65) more effigies are gotten. Call this number P"

 

That is wrong^

 

(60k/11)/80k*.9231 = P

Ok for god sake let me use my own xp rates! I thought I just said this about fishing!

 

60/65 is more accurate than .9231 I don't know why you corrected me on that.

 

Followed by your own proof which is interesting, lets hope it isn't like your slayer proofs,

 

 

Except I see one thing that I think is wrong. Since you are getting more effigies and using fishing to investigate those effigies this in turn results in less str and agil xp. And then this means you will get more effigies... etc. This leads in an infinite loop saying that you should do cave crawlers all the way to 200m fishing. This was the same mistake that was in my math that you pointed out.

 

No it is not endless because the effect reduces by a factor of (11.25x 60)/(11x 80x 65) and eventually becomes negligable and very interestingly the effect creates a geometric series with the previous stated figure being the ratio, the sum of infinate terms in that series (adding all the effects infinate times) is 2288/2261 (I am pretty sure on this) times the original fishing xp required.

Anyway bringing sequences and series into math is so much more interesting than algerbra :D

[yoooooooooooooooooooo]

I thought I just proved Fishing was well more than Agility Xp/hr....

 

@yooooooo

It's not that difficult to pay attention while fishing. Afking is never good Xp/hr, in any skill.

 

There's a difference between paying attention and intensive clicking. I think the only way someone would actually use the 3-tick method is with a stackable food, as that seems to be the most manageable method.

[Xensure]

I thought I just proved Fishing was well more than Agility Xp/hr....

 

I was writing that up during the whole discussion of the cut/eat method, so I didn't see that. I posted before that I had seen that first vid and knew that it was 80k/h, but in the end it doesn't change much about my conclusion.

 

at 85k/h 1 hour of fishing is worth: 60+60*[(85k/11)/72k]+60*[(85k/11)/80k] = 60+6.439+5.795 = 72.234 minutes of total skilling (This ignores the strength infinite loop)

 

It is still less than 85.5 minutes so it is not worth doing at all. Especially because I don't see any room for alching in this method.

[BBK]

So according to this you should do cave crawlers even after maxing melee until 200m slayer, RC, Agility, and Fishing. Now I think I know why Zarfot quit like two weeks after his cave crawler vid.

No kidding. I would quit too if it looked like I would be spending the entire rest of my existence at cave crawlers. Not to mention the money it would cost. :blink:

 

Which is a good point. How long would it take to make that cash? Merchanting is going to get royally messed up very soon.

 

Yeah I find it crazy that people consider 200m slayer and rc all at cave crawlers, let alone agility and fishing on top of that. I doubt I could spend a week there let alone resign myself to no lifing their for the next few years. Btw merching should get a lot easier without price limits, and players with a big cash stack (aka most top players) are at an advantage because inflation from bh is about to stop, items are gonna crash and gp is gonna be worth more. Not to mention the donations top players could get if they ask for it. This update is going to put top players in a better position imo.

[Xensure]

First off

"(60/11)x(1/72)x(60/65) more effigies are gotten. Call this number P"

 

That is wrong^

 

(60k/11)/80k*.9231 = P

Ok for god sake let me use my own xp rates! I thought I just said this about fishing!

 

60/65 is more accurate than .9231 I don't know why you corrected me on that.

 

Followed by your own proof which is interesting, lets hope it isn't like your slayer proofs,

 

This is about strength... I was not correcting the 60/65. I correcting the 72k you used. That is the agility rate not the strength rate which is 80k. I rearragned the equation of value, but the only thing I changed was the strength xp. You messed up there. This had nothing to do with the fishing xp rate. "(60/11)x(1/72)x(60/65)" does not provide the correct number of effigies. My equation does. My equation can also be written (60/11)*(1/80)*(60/65). So next time read before you jump down someone's throat.

 

Except I see one thing that I think is wrong. Since you are getting more effigies and using fishing to investigate those effigies this in turn results in less str and agil xp. And then this means you will get more effigies... etc. This leads in an infinite loop saying that you should do cave crawlers all the way to 200m fishing. This was the same mistake that was in my math that you pointed out.

 

No it is not endless because the effect reduces by a factor of (11.25x 60)/(11x 80x 65) and eventually becomes negligable and very interestingly the effect creates a geometric series with the previous stated figure being the ratio, the sum of infinite terms in that series (adding all the effects infinate times) is 2288/2261 times the original fishing xp required.

 

Hmm, using and infinite series, that is a good approach. I like that idea, however I would like to see it presented in summation form, I am not sure how to check your math with out that. However this wouldn't matter in the end since you are using effigies all the way to 200m fishing.

[TipTopCat]

Hello,

 

Love this thread. I think you guys are making rc at ZMI far too complex.

 

As of right now, the current state at FFDN is that runners can still make 500k/hr or so and there are almost always zero runners. Until an incentive is in place - basically going back up to 1m+/hr I don't think people will be running again anytime soon.

 

I see an enormous opening for someone willing to pay 1m+/hr for runners. By paying between 1-2m/hr (maybe higher depending on new economy) I can think of several people that all easily get 40-50k/hr at zmi and would be willing to run for someone at least an hour a day if not more. Especially if it's someone like Telmo paying this I'm pretty sure they could easily secure some very good runners - in the top 5% of the fastest rc'rs most likely (cause I know a few that miss having a good predictable hourly income available).

 

As far as I remember max runes you get at ZMI is 13.

 

That leaves 15 inventory spots open. They could easily dump the ones they want to keep in to a yak that they keep handily summoned right next to them - or just drop them cause ess is cheap and runes are just a byproduct of gaining xp.

 

If you kept all the runes in your inv, and didn't dump them off to a yak, with an average of 17 xp per ess your'e gettin 255 xp per inventory - you'll get this two/three times per runner - versus only 225 xp for an inventory of 25 essence at the Nat alter.

 

If your working with a trustworthy group of runners, there is no paying the runners, no trading of runes, etc. The person you're running for would pay you several million up front and you'd run like a madman in exchange. With very good runners that average less then 1 min a trip, you won't need more then 3-4 very solid runners at any one point. In the world of things as an hourly expense for some guys spending 5-10m an hr or w/e at zmi is really no big deal compared to the hourly expenditures on other skills.

[Thai_tong]

This is about strength... I was not correcting the 60/65. I correcting the 72k you used.

Yes this is why I said let me use my own xp rates like I did with the last problem you had with the fishing xp rate I used.

 

Hmm, using and infinite series, that is a good approach. I like that idea, however I would like to see it presented in summation form, I am not sure how to check your math with out that. However this wouldn't matter in the end since you are using effigies all the way to 200m fishing.

You mean you want me to send you the proof? Do you know the alt key code for squared? that would help a lot.

I am also unsure about maxing all effigy skills with cave crawlers, skills like hunter, thieving, firemaking might have high enough xp rates to not use lamps on.

[PereGrin]

Hello,

 

Love this thread. I think you guys are making rc at ZMI far too complex.

 

As of right now, the current state at FFDN is that runners can still make 500k/hr or so and there are almost always zero runners. Until an incentive is in place - basically going back up to 1m+/hr I don't think people will be running again anytime soon.

 

I see an enormous opening for someone willing to pay 1m+/hr for runners. By paying between 1-2m/hr (maybe higher depending on new economy) I can think of several people that all easily get 40-50k/hr at zmi and would be willing to run for someone at least an hour a day if not more. Especially if it's someone like Telmo paying this I'm pretty sure they could easily secure some very good runners - in the top 5% of the fastest rc'rs most likely (cause I know a few that miss having a good predictable hourly income available).

 

As far as I remember max runes you get at ZMI is 13.

 

That leaves 15 inventory spots open. They could easily dump the ones they want to keep in to a yak that they keep handily summoned right next to them - or just drop them cause ess is cheap and runes are just a byproduct of gaining xp.

 

If you kept all the runes in your inv, and didn't dump them off to a yak, with an average of 17 xp per ess your'e gettin 255 xp per inventory - you'll get this two/three times per runner - versus only 225 xp for an inventory of 25 essence at the Nat alter.

 

If your working with a trustworthy group of runners, there is no paying the runners, no trading of runes, etc. The person you're running for would pay you several million up front and you'd run like a madman in exchange. With very good runners that average less then 1 min a trip, you won't need more then 3-4 very solid runners at any one point. In the world of things as an hourly expense for some guys spending 5-10m an hr or w/e at zmi is really no big deal compared to the hourly expenditures on other skills.

But most of the other buyables run in much shorter spurts. The amount of time you actually spend training herblore or prayer is so much shorter then runecrafting. A decent herblore price is around 25-30 gp/xp. Paying 5mil/hour (5 runners at 1m/hour) puts rc xp at 55gp/xp for rates of 90k/h. That's a 10bil price tag for 200m rc.

 

You get 14 types of runes at ZMI. Astrals are included. Also, you need a slot for noted pure ess, which leaves you with 13 open inv spaces. By keeping all the runes you get, and using your average of 17xp per ess, you would get 221 xp per 13 ess. However, going my way of trading the runes to the runners would result in 408 xp per 24 ess. It remains to be seen if the extra experience would be worth the lengthened trade time.

 

For Thai:

Squared: ALT+253 - ²

Sigma: ALT+228 - Σ

Square root: ALT+251 - √

[Thai_tong]

Double post

[Jebrim]

Btw, all these calcs might turn to dust if the new revenant dungeon becomes the new best way to skill(killing for brawlers).

[PereGrin]

Btw, all these calcs might turn to dust if the new revenant dungeon becomes the new best way to skill(killing for brawlers).

Dungeon is Pvp enabled :twisted:

 

I really hope someone comes out with a Rev bot so I can kill it for free Pvp gear :)

[Thai_tong]

Btw, all these calcs might turn to dust if the new revenant dungeon becomes the new best way to skill(killing for brawlers).

That would be annoying...

Probably wont be that good unless they also drop effigies, or if the brawler drop rate is high, I doubt Jagex will allow a cannon there. If there was a cannon it would likely be single combat so no steel titan.

[Thai_tong]

From a rough calculation the costs for cannonballs only for maxing all effigy skills @ crawlers would be 26B. This method would also increase costs of smithing and since all slow xp skills are buyable total time will drop a lot so for optimal farming runs there will have to be more magic seeds, less calquats so farming cost also increases.

[Jebrim]

Also, concerning Rc, you could always quickly drop the noob runes before trading. Keep them at the bottom of the inventory. When I ran for Kingio, we traded him 19 ess each time and he got up to 110k Xp/hr.

[Xensure]

I am also unsure about maxing all effigy skills with cave crawlers, skills like hunter, thieving, firemaking might have high enough xp rates to not use lamps on.

 

"Basically what this is suggesting is that in order for a skill to be worth doing over cave crawler effigies it either (A) must provide more than 85.582 minutes of skilling through residual xp. Or (B) must have an xp/h (x) such that it satisfies the inequality below:

 

48.582+60*[.9231*48.029/x] < 60

 

x > 233.85 or in layman's terms a skill must be over 233k xp/h for it to be worth doing over cave crawlers.

 

So according to this you should do cave crawlers even after maxing melee until 200m slayer, RC, Agility, and Fishing."

 

Hunter, Thieving, and Fming are all over 233k/h as are all of the faster counter parts to the effigy skills. ie. cooking, herb, craft... etc. The only question is the mining and smithing combo. I put it at over 85.5 minute of skilling per hour, but not by much. I used your 214k/h smithing, but I think that is wrong because you used rune plates in your calc + plus and yak and the new varroc armor, but Zarfot was getting 230k with addy plate, no yak, and the old varroc armor, so if smithing is over 233k/h then that would put mining under 85.5 minutes meaning that you should use effigies on mining too. But either way would only save a few hours so either method could be done.

[Thai_tong]

Don't forget mining with cave crawlers.

 

I have a concern about woodcutting and that is that you cannot fletch efficiently with any of the remaining skills so you could just end up doing broad arrows afterwards. And even if you didn't max wc at cave crawlers you would still get soo much wc xp from opening effigies, Perhaps even to the extent that you need to open effigies with fletching :blink: